N2EY wrote:
"KØHB" wrote in message link.net...

"Jack Twilley" wrote


If you were the average ham, Hans......

"Average" and "contesting" are incompatible concepts.


Agreed!

"Nothing average ever stood as a monument to progress.


Not entirely true.

Look at the "average" ham HF transceiver of, say, 40 years ago. Now
look at the "average" ham HF transceiver today. Not the
top-of-the-line, but rather what the middle of the pack can afford.
I'd say there's been some progress, particularly in what such sets
cost to buy new in terms of how many hours you have to work to buy
one.

And if Hams simply bought the "average" rigs of yesteryear in
preference to the improved ones, we'd still be getting those same
average rigs.

Of course one of the big reasons the *average* rig is better is a
trickle-down effect of techniques used on the top-of-the-line stuff.
Which stuff exists in large part because of the market created by
contesters and DXers.

Or look at the features, capabilities and cost of the average PC
compared to 5 or 10 years ago. Heck, the average new PC today is more
powerful (by a whole bunch of measures) than the top-of-the-line
machine of a few years ago - and it costs far less.

So I'd say that the *average* can actually be a monument to progress.


Gee Jim! average means just that. The newer better faster average rigs
and computers are getting their increased power or functionality FROM
the better than average machinery. No better than average machinery, no
increased capabilitied to eventually go into the average stuff.


- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

Gee Jim! average means just that. The newer better faster average rigs
and computers are getting their increased power or functionality FROM
the better than average machinery. No better than average machinery, no
increased capabilitied to eventually go into the average stuff.


- Mike KB3EIA -

Jim, even though he says he designs rigs and builds radios from
scratch, had to buy a kit to get a better than average CW rig.

Subject: Morse and Contests
From: (William)
Date: 5/13/2004 6:15 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Morse and Contests
From: (William)
Date: 5/11/2004 9:04 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

personal assault snipped

You've made assertions about things you've allegedly done
in Amateur Radio that you subsequently refuse to substantiate them with
ANY
form of proof.

I've done them, yet I owe you no proof.

You SAY you've done them.

OK. Both.

I did them, and I say I did them.

But you never proved it.

It's never been documented.

You can't provide ONE iota of proof in an avocation where documentation is
important and ritual in such matters. Most people are intesely proud of having
done what you claim and at LEAST have pictures of their "events".

So far you've not provided ANYthing. Ergo, until said proof is manifest,
as far as I am concerned, you're lying. You've had more than ample opportunity
to ante up, but all you do is make silly sandlot excuses.

You're a coward.

I say I've operated from Okinawa Japan. I can provide copies of old
logs,
and I bet if I wrote to 15th Air Force I could get a copy of my old
authorization. I can also pony up a couple folks who were there when I did
it.

I'm not even interested.

Of course you're not. You don't like it when someone can PROVE they did
what YOU only claim.

YOU say you operated from Somalia. You haven't supplied the callsign
of
ONE contact you made...Haven't provided a copy of ANY authorization from
that
operation, and can't even give us the name of your commander that allegedly
gave you the permission.

I don't need to. I owe you no proof.

I never said you "owe" me anything.

But you "owe" it to yourself to prove the assertions YOU made. I say
you've had more than ample opportunity to prove what you've said. You haven't.
All you've doen is dodge it. That makes me believe you are a liar.

That's just the way it is.

Yep. That IS just the way it is. Brian Burke is a liar.

Get over it.

Ain't me that's lying. Nothing to "get over".

Lots more personal attacks deleted.

They aren't "personal attacks" if they're true. So far you've not done or
said anything to prove otherwise.

Steve, K4YZ

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...
Subject: Morse and Contests
From: (William)
Date: 5/13/2004 6:15 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Morse and Contests
From: (William)
Date: 5/11/2004 9:04 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

personal assault snipped

You've made assertions about things you've allegedly done
in Amateur Radio that you subsequently refuse to substantiate them with
ANY
form of proof.

I've done them, yet I owe you no proof.

You SAY you've done them.

OK. Both.

I did them, and I say I did them.

But you never proved it.

It's never been documented.

You can't provide ONE iota of proof in an avocation where documentation is
important and ritual in such matters. Most people are intesely proud of having
done what you claim and at LEAST have pictures of their "events".

So far you've not provided ANYthing. Ergo, until said proof is manifest,
as far as I am concerned, you're lying. You've had more than ample opportunity
to ante up, but all you do is make silly sandlot excuses.

You're a coward.

I say I've operated from Okinawa Japan. I can provide copies of old
logs,
and I bet if I wrote to 15th Air Force I could get a copy of my old
authorization. I can also pony up a couple folks who were there when I did
it.

I'm not even interested.

Of course you're not. You don't like it when someone can PROVE they did
what YOU only claim.

YOU say you operated from Somalia. You haven't supplied the callsign
of
ONE contact you made...Haven't provided a copy of ANY authorization from
that
operation, and can't even give us the name of your commander that allegedly
gave you the permission.

I don't need to. I owe you no proof.

I never said you "owe" me anything.

But you "owe" it to yourself to prove the assertions YOU made. I say
you've had more than ample opportunity to prove what you've said. You haven't.
All you've doen is dodge it. That makes me believe you are a liar.

That's just the way it is.

Yep. That IS just the way it is. Brian Burke is a liar.

Get over it.

Ain't me that's lying. Nothing to "get over".

Lots more personal attacks deleted.

They aren't "personal attacks" if they're true. So far you've not done or
said anything to prove otherwise.

Steve, K4YZ

Now you've called me a coward and a liar. They are personal attacks
regardless of whether they're true or not, and they're not true.
You're just not a nice person.

Anyway, I know what I've done and that's enough for me. I don't need
a certificate on the wall to document my operations in foreign lands,
and as far as documention goes, even the FCC no longer requires us to
keep a log book. So much for you wanting me to do this just for me.
Get real, its for you.

Your continued insistance that I provide documention to you just isn't
going to happen. You can get over it by getting over it.

So how 'bout them MARS regulations? Can you back up your statement,

" Sorry Hans, MARS IS "Amateur Radio". "

Best of Luck.

Subject: Morse and Contests
From: (William)
Date: 5/14/2004 7:32 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

They aren't "personal attacks" if they're true. So far you've not
done or
said anything to prove otherwise.

Steve, K4YZ

Now you've called me a coward and a liar. They are personal attacks
regardless of whether they're true or not, and they're not true.

Until proven otherwise, they are.

SO far you are both.

You're just not a nice person.

I guess you consider me "not a nice person" because I don't tolerate your
mistruths and flights of fantasy.

Oh well. You'll excuse me if I don't lose any sleep over what a liar and a
coward thinks of me.

Anyway, I know what I've done and that's enough for me.

I think you REALLy meant that what you THINK you've done is enough for
you.

I don't need
a certificate on the wall to document my operations in foreign lands,
and as far as documention goes, even the FCC no longer requires us to
keep a log book. So much for you wanting me to do this just for me.
Get real, its for you.

IF you operated from Somalia, you didn't do it legally.

IF you operted from Somalia, you still ahve yet to prove it.

IF you were telling the truth about it you could have at least provided
the callsigns of a few folks you chatted with. I remember the calls of some
folks I "worked" from 1981 from Okinawa. What's YOUR problem?

Your continued insistance that I provide documention to you just isn't
going to happen. You can get over it by getting over it.

It's no skin off my nose, Brain...I am not the one who made far-out claims
that even a (pardon the pun) rank amateur in DXing could have avoided.

No Proof = Didn't happen.

So how 'bout them MARS regulations? Can you back up your statement,

" Sorry Hans, MARS IS "Amateur Radio". "

As long as the two are inter-dependent on each other, Brain, it's true.

As of today. it's true. No Amateur Radio = No MARS.

Amateur Radio-like conversations conducted by licensed Amateurs who happen
to be MARS members still, as I type this, occur on MARS allocations.

Best of Luck.

For what?

Steve, K4YZ

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:
"KØHB" wrote in message link.net...

"Jack Twilley" wrote


If you were the average ham, Hans......

"Average" and "contesting" are incompatible concepts.


Agreed!

"Nothing average ever stood as a monument to progress.


Not entirely true.

Look at the "average" ham HF transceiver of, say, 40 years ago. Now
look at the "average" ham HF transceiver today. Not the
top-of-the-line, but rather what the middle of the pack can afford.
I'd say there's been some progress, particularly in what such sets
cost to buy new in terms of how many hours you have to work to buy
one.

And if Hams simply bought the "average" rigs of yesteryear in
preference to the improved ones, we'd still be getting those same
average rigs.

Exactly my point. Those who wanted something above average (like the
contesters and DXers) drove the market.

And as a result the *average* moved up over time.

Of course one of the big reasons the *average* rig is better is a
trickle-down effect of techniques used on the top-of-the-line stuff.
Which stuff exists in large part because of the market created by
contesters and DXers.

Or look at the features, capabilities and cost of the average PC
compared to 5 or 10 years ago. Heck, the average new PC today is more
powerful (by a whole bunch of measures) than the top-of-the-line
machine of a few years ago - and it costs far less.

So I'd say that the *average* can actually be a monument to progress.

Gee Jim! average means just that. The newer better faster average rigs
and computers are getting their increased power or functionality FROM
the better than average machinery. No better than average machinery, no
increased capabilitied to eventually go into the average stuff.

Exactly! But it is the *improvement in the average* that can stand as
a monument to true progress.

IOW, if some tiny percentage of top-end rigs have a new technology,
that's 'progress' for the few who can afford it. But when that new
technology becomes affordable and generally used so that the *average*
rig has it, that's 'progress' for most of us.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Which is more indicative of progress:

- Somebody custom-builds a few very expensive cars with new technology
that get 100 MPG

or

- Somebody mass-produces millions of affordable cars with new
technology that raise the fleet average to 40 MPG

?

Of course the first option will probably precede the second.

73 de Jim, N2EY

(William) wrote in message om...
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

Gee Jim! average means just that. The newer better faster average rigs
and computers are getting their increased power or functionality FROM
the better than average machinery. No better than average machinery, no
increased capabilitied to eventually go into the average stuff.


- Mike KB3EIA -

Jim, even though he says he designs rigs and builds radios from
scratch,

It's a fact. I've designed and built many ham rigs from scratch over
the years. Also converted surplus, fixed up old 'basketcase' rigs,
built kits, and had the occasional manufactured set (last one was a
Ten Tec Argosy, which I sold in 1984).

Plus antennas, power supplies, test equipment, shack furniture, and
lots more. My current computer at home was assembled mostly from parts
of other computers. Had to buy the modem and CD-ROM burner new,
though.

had to buy a kit to get a better than average CW rig.

Not true. Most of my homebrew rigs have been better than average,
particularly the ones built in the past 25 years or so.

Some rrap regulars have heard my homebrew rigs on the air. You can,
too. 40 CW is about the best bet.

"KØHB" wrote in message thlink.net...
"N2EY" wrote


So I'd say that the *average* can actually be a monument to progress.


Please never bother to apply for a position in my product development
group.

No bother at all, Hans. It says a lot that my little discourse
disproving one of your pet quotes would instantly disqualify me from
your group.

Funny how some folks say they value independent reasoning, new ideas,
different opinions, creativity and careful analysis - but when
actually confronted by those things, they tell the messenger he's not
wanted.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
"KØHB" wrote in message
thlink.net...
"N2EY" wrote


So I'd say that the *average* can actually be a monument to
progress.


Please never bother to apply for a position in my product
development
group.

No bother at all, Hans. It says a lot that my little discourse
disproving one of your pet quotes would instantly disqualify me from
your group.

You didn't disprove the quote, Jim.

You disqualified yourself by accepting mediocrity, "good enough", and
"average". My industry is too competitive to abide "average", and those
who propose that "*average* can actually be a monument to progress"
clearly have the wrong mindset to contribute to our success.

73, de Hans, K0HB

"KØHB" wrote in message nk.net...
"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
"KØHB" wrote in message
thlink.net...
"N2EY" wrote


So I'd say that the *average* can actually be a monument to
progress.


Please never bother to apply for a position in my product
development
group.

No bother at all, Hans. It says a lot that my little discourse
disproving one of your pet quotes would instantly disqualify me from
your group.

You didn't disprove the quote, Jim.

I disproved the first sentence of it, Hans. The part about "Nothing
average ever stood as a monument to progress".

You disqualified yourself by accepting mediocrity, "good enough", and
"average".

Those three terms mean very different things. My disproof stands. You
just don't like that fact.

My industry is too competitive to abide "average",

Your industry "abides" it all the time. Otherwise you'd never get any
products out the door.

and those
who propose that "*average* can actually be a monument to progress"
clearly have the wrong mindset to contribute to our success.

That's bad logic on your part, Hans. The proof is right in front of
you, in the PC you're using. But you refuse to see it.


73 de Jim, N2EY