Quote from FCC web, http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/t2.html

"Telegraphy Examinations Elements

Element 1 - 16 code groups per minute.

Element 2 - 20 code groups per minute.
Telegraphy exams consist of both transmitting and receiving tests. Examinees
must copy by ear and send by hand plain text and code groups in the
international Morse code using all the letters of the alphabet, numerals
0-9, period, comma, question mark, slant mark, and prosigns AR, BT, and SK.
Examinees must copy and send at the required speeds for one continuous
minute without making any errors. Each test lasts approximately five
minutes. The failing of any code test automatically terminates the
examination.

Code speeds are computed using five letters per word or code group.
Punctuation symbols and numbers count as two letters each.

Examinees may use their own typewriter to copy the 25 words-per-minute
receiving test, but must copy tests at lower speeds by hand. Likewise,
examinees may use their own semi-automatic key to send the 25
word-per-minute sending test, but must send tests at lower speeds using a
hand key.

The Commission will grant credit for Telegraphy Elements 1 and 2 to
applicants who hold an unexpired (or within the grace period) FCC-issued
Amateur Extra Class operator license."

I went exploring further on the FCC site and found that the question
pools -- with answers -- are available for the various Commercial Radio
Operator license exams, just as they are for the Amateur exams.

And ISTR reading that the FCC had adopted the practice of using
published questions and answers after finding that the system worked OK
for the FAA for pilots' licenses.

So if the Amateur license tests are being dumbed down, they are not the
only oner.

Alan AB2OS


On 07/11/04 06:58 pm Avery Hightower put fingers to keyboard and
launched the following message into cyberspace:

Quote from FCC web, http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/t2.html

"Telegraphy Examinations Elements

Element 1 - 16 code groups per minute.

Element 2 - 20 code groups per minute.
Telegraphy exams consist of both transmitting and receiving tests. Examinees
must copy by ear and send by hand plain text and code groups in the
international Morse code using all the letters of the alphabet, numerals
0-9, period, comma, question mark, slant mark, and prosigns AR, BT, and SK.
Examinees must copy and send at the required speeds for one continuous
minute without making any errors. Each test lasts approximately five
minutes. The failing of any code test automatically terminates the
examination.

Code speeds are computed using five letters per word or code group.
Punctuation symbols and numbers count as two letters each.

Examinees may use their own typewriter to copy the 25 words-per-minute
receiving test, but must copy tests at lower speeds by hand. Likewise,
examinees may use their own semi-automatic key to send the 25
word-per-minute sending test, but must send tests at lower speeds using a
hand key.

The Commission will grant credit for Telegraphy Elements 1 and 2 to
applicants who hold an unexpired (or within the grace period) FCC-issued
Amateur Extra Class operator license."

Minnie Bannister wrote:
I went exploring further on the FCC site and found that the question
pools -- with answers -- are available for the various Commercial Radio
Operator license exams, just as they are for the Amateur exams.

And ISTR reading that the FCC had adopted the practice of using
published questions and answers after finding that the system worked OK
for the FAA for pilots' licenses.

So if the Amateur license tests are being dumbed down, they are not the
only oner.

1. Most everything is done that way today. Make a question pool large
enough, and there is no problem.

A thought: If a question pool is cheating, then a book with the answers
in the test in the course of reading is cheating too.

So...

The only way that *some* Hams will be happy is if the test questions
have answers in no book - that is to say that all testing will have to
be in the form of basic research - the new ham will have to advance the
state of the art in his/her admission test.

Otherwise the new ham is cheating and isn't as good as the old ham. 8^)

(I just recently had to listen to an old timer in person on a tirade
about the worthless new hams - again.)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

1. Most everything is done that way today.

Doesn't make it right!

Make a question pool large enough, and there is no problem.

Sure there is.

A thought: If a question pool is cheating, then a book with the answers
in the test in the course of reading is cheating too

Question pools don't equal cheating unless they are supposed to be
secret.

So...

The only way that *some* Hams will be happy is if the test questions
have answers in no book - that is to say that all testing will have to
be in the form of basic research - the new ham will have to advance the
state of the art in his/her admission test.

bwaaahaahaa

Otherwise the new ham is cheating and isn't as good as the old ham. 8^)

(I just recently had to listen to an old timer in person on a tirade
about the worthless new hams - again.)

Why did you have to listen? I find turning on my heel and walking away
does wonders. Or, looking the ranter straight in the eye and saying,
"You're just wrong...." (lookit how the oldest ranter here on rrap
reacts to being told he's wrong - which he often is....)

Besides, what it all comes down to is this:

Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did
ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved
them resources.

We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice
published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna
happen.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

1. Most everything is done that way today.


Doesn't make it right!


Make a question pool large enough, and there is no problem.


Sure there is.

I dunno, Jim. I can read a book, or I can look at a question pool. It's
all the same to me. If you make questions up, you have to have a
reference for them someplace. Is it in a book? fine, study the book
then. Is it a question pool? Fine also.

Rote memorization? Seriously if anyone rote memorizes the General and
Extra tests, they are very intelligent and very stupid at the same time.
And they will have a few curves thrown at them at test time.


A thought: If a question pool is cheating, then a book with the answers
in the test in the course of reading is cheating too


Question pools don't equal cheating unless they are supposed to be
secret.

So...

The only way that *some* Hams will be happy is if the test questions
have answers in no book - that is to say that all testing will have to
be in the form of basic research - the new ham will have to advance the
state of the art in his/her admission test.


bwaaahaahaa

Otherwise the new ham is cheating and isn't as good as the old ham. 8^)

(I just recently had to listen to an old timer in person on a tirade
about the worthless new hams - again.)


Why did you have to listen? I find turning on my heel and walking away
does wonders. Or, looking the ranter straight in the eye and saying,
"You're just wrong...." (lookit how the oldest ranter here on rrap
reacts to being told he's wrong - which he often is....)

Well, it wasn't a case where I could or should have turned away. I
supposed I could have kicked the person out, but I also needed the help
he was giving on a task. Real life has a habit of modifying our
behavior. Plus ut wasn't a personal attack. Most hams I know think I'm a
relative old timer. But its still irritating.

Every once in a while, I'll mention something like "Hey, I resemble
that remark!"


Besides, what it all comes down to is this:

Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did
ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved
them resources.

We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice
published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna
happen.

Just a thought here... If we were to say, go to a book oriented
reference for the tests, I can assure you that it would be no better
than the pool based system. Thousands and thousands of college students
prove this on a daily basis, pulling all-nighters, cramming to take
their tests. All the crammed knowledge is placed in shirt term memory,
to quickly fade after the test is over.

Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test
administrator comes to love with you for a week, to see if you *really*
have knowledge of Ham radio....hehe.

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

N2EY wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message
...

1. Most everything is done that way today.

Doesn't make it right!

Make a question pool large enough, and there is no problem.

Sure there is.

I dunno, Jim. I can read a book, or I can look at a question pool. It's

all the same to me. If you make questions up, you have to have a
reference for them someplace. Is it in a book? fine, study the book
then. Is it a question pool? Fine also.

Rote memorization? Seriously if anyone rote memorizes the General and
Extra tests, they are very intelligent and very stupid at the same time.
And they will have a few curves thrown at them at test time.

Mike, the Regulations on privatized testing always specified a
MINIMUM of ten questions for every required question on a test,
amateur or commercial.

The test question pools were generated for the least amount of
lawful effort. For amateur tests the VEC QPC is responsible.

The amateur QP could have a hundred times the required questions
and the total would defeat all the "charges" of "not right" just from
the immensity of a memorization effort. [for all but the eidetic]

Increasing the QP size is perfectly legal under the law. :-)

A thought: If a question pool is cheating, then a book with the answers

in the test in the course of reading is cheating too

Question pools don't equal cheating unless they are supposed to be
secret.

So...

The only way that *some* Hams will be happy is if the test questions
have answers in no book - that is to say that all testing will have to
be in the form of basic research - the new ham will have to advance the
state of the art in his/her admission test.

bwaaahaahaa

Otherwise the new ham is cheating and isn't as good as the old ham. 8^)

(I just recently had to listen to an old timer in person on a tirade
about the worthless new hams - again.)

Why did you have to listen? I find turning on my heel and walking away
does wonders. Or, looking the ranter straight in the eye and saying,
"You're just wrong...." (lookit how the oldest ranter here on rrap
reacts to being told he's wrong - which he often is....)

Well, it wasn't a case where I could or should have turned away. I
supposed I could have kicked the person out, but I also needed the help
he was giving on a task. Real life has a habit of modifying our
behavior. Plus ut wasn't a personal attack. Most hams I know think I'm a
relative old timer. But its still irritating.

It's not a question of longevity with Rev. Jim. He Is Right and won't
accept anything contrary to His Sacred Vision. :-)

It boils down to the OFs elevating themselves far out of reality on
"how good they were/are" in the way of the Sacred Olde Tests. If
They did it, it is "right." If it isn't done as They did it, it is "wrong."

That's the bottom line in all of these test issues. :-)


Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did
ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved
them resources.

We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice
published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna
happen.

Just a thought here... If we were to say, go to a book oriented
reference for the tests, I can assure you that it would be no better
than the pool based system. Thousands and thousands of college students
prove this on a daily basis, pulling all-nighters, cramming to take
their tests. All the crammed knowledge is placed in shirt term memory,
to quickly fade after the test is over.

Mike, amateur radio is "different." It is different because the OF's
tests were the "correct way" to do it. :-)

Never mind that multiple-choice testing is accepted nearly
everywhere else (even done in the Sacred Olde Tests) by
academics and government agencies.

Amateur radio is not a hobby. It is much, much more that that to
the OFs. It is a "service." It has "unchangeable" rules that must be
kept always and forever the same lest it become "incorrect." :-)

---

Another poster has apparently just learned that COLEMs (the
commercial test givers) "also have question pools!" Amazing.
It's been that way since privatized testing began. But, it was just
noticed! [anyone can look in the first bound volume of Title 47 and
see the commercial license requirements except nothing about
that or the three middle volumes are mentioned much in ham
radio places...that has "nothing to do with hamme raddio!" yell the
purists...:-) ]

The anti-public-question-pool purists don't have much of validity
in their "memorization" charges...but it's about the only one they
can come up with...so they must push and push on that to justify
their public words. :-)

Mike Coslo wrote:

Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test
administrator comes to love with you for a week...

I can only hope that's a typo buried there, Mike.

Dave K8MN

"Mike Coslo" wrote


Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test
administrator comes to love with you for a week, to see if you
*really*
have knowledge of Ham radio....hehe.


I know I'll be a lot more choosy about which test sessions I agree to
proctor!

73, de Hans, K0HB

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

Make a question pool large enough, and there is no problem.

Sure there is.

I dunno, Jim. I can read a book, or I can look at a question pool. It's
all the same to me.

To you, yes. But to others, it may be very different.

Which do you *really* think requires more understanding of the mateiral and the
concepts behind it - a test where you don't know the exact Q&A beforehand, or
one where you do?

If you make questions up, you have to have a
reference for them someplace. Is it in a book? fine, study the book
then. Is it a question pool? Fine also.

*If* you only care about right answers rather than understanding.

Rote memorization? Seriously if anyone rote memorizes the General and
Extra tests, they are very intelligent and very stupid at the same time.

Depends on the person and the subject. In some areas, the only way to know the
material is rote memorization. (How long is a ham license term?)

And they will have a few curves thrown at them at test time.

How? The test questions are all in the pool. Read the pool and you have seen
every possible question and answer.

Heck, download the pool as a Word or text document, edit out the wrong answers,
print the questions up on 3x5 cards and just read the dern things while in the
room of many doors.

Remember the game "Trivial Pursuit"? When it was a big deal ~20 years ago, I
used to carry a handful of the cards in my pocket and read them at odd times
(on the subway, waiting for the elevator, etc.) Didn't consciously try to
memorize them, just read them. I was soon nearly unbeatable - as long as the
game used the Original edition cards.

The question pools have far fewer questions than the Trivial Pursuit cards did.

A thought: If a question pool is cheating, then a book with the answers
in the test in the course of reading is cheating too

Question pools don't equal cheating unless they are supposed to be
secret.

So...

The only way that *some* Hams will be happy is if the test questions
have answers in no book - that is to say that all testing will have to
be in the form of basic research - the new ham will have to advance the
state of the art in his/her admission test.


bwaaahaahaa

Otherwise the new ham is cheating and isn't as good as the old ham. 8^)

(I just recently had to listen to an old timer in person on a tirade
about the worthless new hams - again.)

Why did you have to listen? I find turning on my heel and walking away
does wonders. Or, looking the ranter straight in the eye and saying,
"You're just wrong...." (lookit how the oldest ranter here on rrap
reacts to being told he's wrong - which he often is....)

Well, it wasn't a case where I could or should have turned away. I
supposed I could have kicked the person out, but I also needed the help
he was giving on a task. Real life has a habit of modifying our
behavior. Plus ut wasn't a personal attack. Most hams I know think I'm a
relative old timer. But its still irritating.

Well, he was just plain wrong. The test is just one part of being qualified.

Every once in a while, I'll mention something like "Hey, I resemble
that remark!"

There was an old song called "Patches" that you may recall from high school
days. Man is remembering how tough he had it as a kid. Among the folks I grew
up with, we still use the line

"And then the rains came, and washed all the crops away"

whenever somebody starts geezering.

Besides, what it all comes down to is this:

Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did
ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved
them resources.

We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice
published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna
happen.

Just a thought here... If we were to say, go to a book oriented
reference for the tests, I can assure you that it would be no better
than the pool based system.

Sure it would. But we're not going to go back to secret tests. Not gonna happen
- at least not anytime soon. Why get in a lather over it?

Thousands and thousands of college students
prove this on a daily basis, pulling all-nighters, cramming to take
their tests. All the crammed knowledge is placed in shirt term memory,
to quickly fade after the test is over.

That only works for some people. And recall that for most of those students,
the cramming is not the only preparation done.

Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test
administrator comes to love with you for a week, to see if you *really*
have knowledge of Ham radio....hehe.

If the test administrator looks like Heidi Klum, or if I get to be *her* test
administrator, I'll volunteer to put the system throuigh its paces. Heck, I'll
sign up for two weeks......

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
(SNIP)
Besides, what it all comes down to is this:

Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did
ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved
them resources.

We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice
published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna
happen.

73 de Jim, N2EY

More accurate to say: The systemn of multiple choice with
published Q&A is here to stay.

Cheers,
Bill