In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

In article ,

(N2EY) writes:

In article ,

(Len Over 21) writes:

In article ,

(N2EY) writes:

In article , Robert Casey
writes:

Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did
ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved
them resources.

We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice
published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna
happen.

ANd then there's the question of what knowledge should be expected from
applicants anyway. Does it really require more knowledge and skill to
operate on 14.167 vs 14.344?

More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in large
part
because it's easy to enforce.

Nonsense for the new millennium.

That's what you're giving us, Len!

Now, now Rev. Jim. You're off on an evangelical Sermon on the
Antenna Mount again!

Who is this "Rev. Jim" person you keep mentioing, Len?

Tsk. You see him every time you look into a mirror. :-)

You just didn't answer the question I posed about "enforcement
ease." Tsk. tsk. tsk.

Yes, I did, Len.

No, you did NOT.

Tell us how morse signals are "easier to enforce" than voice
signals. Try a few details of how that is done.

Why?

To establish your bona-fides. You've made a wild-hair statement
and its illogical.

Not very professional of you. Tsk.

The separate, elite morsemen-only portions of the ham bands were
put there by old morsemen who were able to influence League
lobbying.

Len, what are "morsemen"?

An elite band of beepers stuck in a time warp of yesteryear.

Amateurs, of course.

So all radio amateurs are morsemen?

Only the beeping bleeping amateurs are morsemen.

The rest of the radio world has given up morse code modes for any
primary communications. Most other radio services never even
considered it!

So you think radio amateurs should stop using Morse code?

No. The FCC should stop TESTING for morse code cognition.

And if you're talking about how the bands got carved up into Extra-only,
Advanced-and-Extra-only, and General-and-above subbands, that wasn't an
ARRL idea at all. It came from elsewhere.

What is this "easy to enforce" nonsense?

It's not nonsense at all, Len.

So...answer how it is "easy."

I'll explain it again.

If a ham tries to exceed license privileges by operating on frequencies not
licensed to that ham, all that has to be done is measure the operating
frequency and identify the source.

Riiiiight...and that lets the FCC know EXACTLY who is doing it
and where, right? :-)

Do you really think others are THAT dumb, Rev. Jim?

The FCC reads morse
easier than it can voice? [I don't think so] Can the FCC DF on
OOK-CW signals "easier" than voice signals? [I don't think so]

The easy to enforce *fact* is that it's simple to check the frequency of a
signal against the license class. It's not nearly so easy to verify things
like power level.

Oh, yeah, the Magick of Morse!

Applies to all modes.

Riiiiight..."real" hams ALWAYS identify honestly, never ever fib or
do nasty. :-)

All morsemen are superbly honest and without fault...would not
dream of falsifying anything, would they?

How could they?

BWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

When was the last time FCC had to do some enforcement on a ham using Morse
code?

1935? :-) :-) :-) :-)


Hello? Ever hear of audio recorders? Those have been around
since WW2. Really. More modern stuff than wire recorders
nowadays, old timer. Combine that with modern DF techniques
(no rotating loop antennas required) and modern data recorders
and ANY signal can be found out.

An audio recorder doesn't tell what radio frequency is being used.

The data sub-carrier signal will have it recorded. Telemetry
recorders carry all sorts of information...those can even record
the DF information from the DF equipment.

All of the morsemen's propaganda is just spin to keep their little
morse playground. No more, no less.

What are you talking about, Len?

YOUR spin on morse code. And the Belief System of the Church
of St. Hiram.

What *are* you talking about, Len?

Heresy. :-)

The only Morse-code-only segments of US amateur radio are the lowest 100
kHz
of 6 and 2 meters. Open to all hams except Novices.

WE weren't talking about "morse code only" stuff, Rev. Jim.

Who is "we", Len?

Me & you. You have lots of alternate personalities like your
butt-in buddy, the Stalker?

[got some bad peyote again? tsk]

Never touched the stuff. You sound like ol' Carlos, though.

Carlos who?


I guess you can't rise to the challenge, then. You're just here to spout
nonsense and abuse.

Your terms. :-)

Anything said against morse code is, in your terms, "nonsense and
abuse."

We readers all KNOW that. Quit stating the obvious.


What you want is for opposing opinions to simply shut up. You can't tolerate
anyone who disagrees with your cherished beliefs. Even worse for you is when
someone proves you are simply wrong about something.

Poor Jimmie. Writing while looking into a mirror again.

Another one working his way into a delusional psychosis...thinks a
different idea to his "factual beliefs" is heresy. Poor Jim.

How's the olde time mashine working these days?

LHA / WMD

PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

AMATEUR radio is a hobby, not a national service, not an arm of the
United States Navy or the rest of the military, and not a public safety
organization. Just a hobby involving radio.

It's not "just a hobby".

It is for most of the participants.

But even if it were, what's the difference? If something is "just a hobby",
does that mean there should be no standards, no training, no rules?

The FCC does not mandate training, does not mandate operating. It
simply has a mechanism in place for VEC's to examine applicants, for
the issuance and renewal of licenses, publication of regulations, and
rarely issues a citation.

The FCC does not run contests, sprints, DXCC, field days, or nets.

AMATEUR radio long ago CEASED to be a "pool of experienced morse
operators" for any national need.

When did it cease, Len?

"long ago"

And here's a fun fact: The Basis and Purpose never used the phrase "experienced
morse operators". Just "experienced operators" - no mention of modes.

So the Basis and Purpose never emphasized (favored) one mode over
another.

Wonder where that come from?

The nation does NOT need morse operators, haven't for a long time.

How long?

"a long time"

Jim, did you realize that a code exam is a disincentive to CW use?

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:


More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in large
part
because it's easy to enforce.

Not only was it easy to enforce but it was selected because it was a
desireable enough reward that people would put in the training to get it.

Utter nonsense, Mama Dee. Spin-like rationalization.

That's a good description of what you post here, Len ;-) ;-) ;-)

Only to the PCTA.

Nope. To anyone who knows the facts.

AMATEUR radio is a hobby, not a national service, not an arm of the
United States Navy or the rest of the military, and not a public safety
organization. Just a hobby involving radio.

It's not "just a hobby".

For some it IS a lifestyle. Their problem, not the governments.

Why is it a "problem"?

So, amateur radio is NOT a hobby?

It's not *just* a hobby.

Would you tell volunteer firefighters and EMTs that what they do is "just a
hobby"?

Prove its vital need to the nation as a national service or an arm of
the military or a public safety organization.

Why? Is that the criteria for something to be more than "just a hobby"?

The FCC hasn't proved that. Only the ham-lifestylers try to prove
that. They NEED the rationalization.

So what's your problem?

But even if it were, what's the difference? If something is "just a hobby",
does that mean there should be no standards, no training, no rules?

Tsk, tsk. Arguing to extemes again?

No. Just asking a question.

What should the standards be?

The FCC isn't chartered to do "training" for radio hams.

Actually, it is.

The FCC doesn't really "set standards," only sets regulations.

Wrong again!

AMATEUR radio long ago CEASED to be a "pool of experienced morse
operators" for any national need.

The description never included the word "Morse", Len.

When did it cease, Len?

Long ago. :-)

When, exactly?

Find all the military morsemen "needs" you can. That be easy, as
there are no such needs.

Find all the commercial communications services you can, count
the "needs" for morsemen. Very few and those be on the Great
Lakes shipping.

What's your point, Len?

And here's a fun fact: The Basis and Purpose never used the phrase
"experienced
morse operators". Just "experienced operators" - no mention of modes.

The nation does NOT need morse operators, haven't for a long time.

How long?

Long time. :-)

You don't know, then.

Most rewards in the real world have little relationship to the work
requested.

More spin crappola.

Well, at least you're honest about your content ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

Tsk, tsk. Not nice.

No, you're not nice at all, Len. ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

Rather nasty comment for a portentious
revered one of the Great Gurus of the newsgrope.

Describing yourself, I see.

The influential morsemen at the League
managed to carve out a separate little morse playground for
themselves with all sorts of fatuous phrases of "national need" and
"importance of a pool of trained operators" and the FCC caved in
to their demands.

When was this? And in what alternate universe?

In the present universe.

Nope. Didn't happen that way.

Those who are busy spinning can't believe it.

Why should anyone believe something that isn't true?

The "pool of trained operators" thing came from FCC, not ARRL.

No kidding? I thought you thought the ARRL regulated all
things in ham radio.

You're wrong. Again.

Learn somethin' every day! Sunnuvagun!

See?

You see it in the home too. Kid asks, "Dad can I borrow the
car?" Parent replies, "After you mow the front & back lawn and run the
edger." There is absolutely no relationship between the two activities.
The kid gets a highly desired reward for work that he/she probably doesn't
care to do but does it anyway to get the reward.

So, the League is a surrogate parent?!? I don't think so.

How many kids have you raised, Len?

On July 4th, two of them. :-)

Right...;-) ;-)


Are all the Amateur Extras surrogate parents now? I don't think so.

You aren't.

Haven't pretended to be, Rev. Jim.

Who is "Rev. Jim"?

You talk to everyone that way, Len. Doesn't work.

You ARE going to misdirect into some "parenting" argument, aren't
you? [your sort of newsgrope tactic]

Nope. It's a valid analogy. Which is why you don't like it.

Dee, quit this infernal nattering about "parentage" and ham radio.

Why, Len? Because it's really quite an accurate analogy?

Who said it is "accurate?"

Me.

You ham lifestylers really get too, too deep into it.

Says who?

Quit trying to sound off like you've got an influential pair.

Pair of what, Len?

Brain halves.

You aren't
a radioactive au pair and this ain't the Children's Hour (even is some
of
the other extras act like children).

The most childish performance I see here is yours, Len.

Then you don't see at all well. Visit an eye doctor for a checkup.

I see fine, Len.

Poor baby. I upset your little session with butt-in buddy, the
Stalker?

Who?

Just face the reality of the matter. Morsemen got their little CW
playground and should be happy.

What *are* you talking about, Len?

The LOWER parts of the HF bands.

You mean the parts where voice modes aren't allowed? Guess what - they're all
wide open for data modes, too. What's the problem?

Professional communicators they
ain't, even if they want, desperately, to be oh, so very pro.

If you're an example of "professional communicator", than I'm glad to be an
amateur.

You are NOT a professional communicator.

Never claimed to be.

You're neither are a professional communicator nor an amateur radio operator,
Len. Just some guy who likes to flame amateur radio newsgroups.

You're on the outside looking in.

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 7/16/2004 5:02 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Poor obsessed, delusional nursie. Can't imagine that anyone
else doesn't like the Stalking Mighty Macho Morseman. Thinks
all who say negative to nursie are all pseudonyms of me.

They usually ARE you, Lennie.

My filter had 29 messages in it today...all of them except one was you and
Brain back-slapping each other with quotes like the one above.

Nice job...Real "professional".

Putz.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (William)
Date: 7/16/2004 5:23 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Len Over 21) writes:

AMATEUR radio is a hobby, not a national service, not an arm of the
United States Navy or the rest of the military, and not a public safety
organization. Just a hobby involving radio.

It's not "just a hobby".

It is for most of the participants.

And you have deduced this from WHAT valid research?

But even if it were, what's the difference? If something is "just a hobby",
does that mean there should be no standards, no training, no rules?

The FCC does not mandate training, does not mandate operating. It
simply has a mechanism in place for VEC's to examine applicants, for
the issuance and renewal of licenses, publication of regulations, and
rarely issues a citation.

The FCC DOES mandate "training"...IF you want a license you will have
to participate in a certain amount of training...

The FCC does not run contests, sprints, DXCC, field days, or nets.

Whoa! Brain woke up for a few minutes!

AMATEUR radio long ago CEASED to be a "pool of experienced morse
operators" for any national need.

When did it cease, Len?

"long ago"

When did it cease Brian? Back when you were operating from Somalia?

Or was it when unlicensed devices started playing a "major role" in
"emergency comms"...?!?!

And here's a fun fact: The Basis and Purpose never used the phrase
"experienced
morse operators". Just "experienced operators" - no mention of modes.

So the Basis and Purpose never emphasized (favored) one mode over
another.

Wonder where that come from?

Why would you wonder?

It's been almos the same language as long as I have been licensed.

The nation does NOT need morse operators, haven't for a long time.

How long?

"a long time"

PuppetBoy strikes again.

Jim, did you realize that a code exam is a disincentive to CW use?

Brain, did you know there are people on 6 and 2 meters USING Morse Code
who DIDN'T take an FCC test to do so...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

Most rewards in the real world have little relationship to the work
requested. You see it in the home too. Kid asks, "Dad can I borrow the
car?" Parent replies, "After you mow the front & back lawn and run the
edger." There is absolutely no relationship between the two activities.

Actually, there is a relationship - or connection might be a better word.

Connection would be the better term I think since the activities are
unrelated in what they are.

OK

You're right that driving a car doesn't require lawn-mowing skills or
accomplishments.

But in the case cited above, Kid is part of the family. In order to use
the
family's resources (the car, which Parents bought and paid for) Kid has to
contribute something - in the cited case, the lawn care. The relationship
between the car use and the lawn care is one of responsibility and being
part of a group.

Excellent. We can apply that similar logic to amateur radio requirements.
The spectrum is a public resource. The prospective ham needs to demonstrate
that he has the potential to be a contributor.

And also the needed knowledge.

This is accomplished by the
testing process. The connection is then similar: demonstrating the
potential for responsibility and being part of a larger group. Notice that
I tag it as potential since there will always be a few who are willing to
put in the effort but then end up being problems.

It's not about putting in the effort but about demonstrating the requisite
knowledge. And said knowledge will include things that may not involve areas
the potential ham is interested in, but are required nonetheless because they
are part of the knowledge base of a radio amateur.

Now some folks say "I'm a professional/EE/technician" as if that somehow
exempts them from having to pass certain tests. But it doesn't work that way,
nor should it. If someone from outside amateur radio is truly qualified, the
tests are no big deal.

Have you ever seen a family where the kids are given everything they want
but not required to contribute anything? Ever see what sort of adults those
kids become?

The kid gets a highly desired reward for work that he/she probably
doesn't care to do but does it anyway to get the reward.

The important question is, who is the best judge of what the requirements
should be? The newcomer or the experienced ham?

73 de Jim, N2EY

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

There's a dozen of us in this forum alone who hold current licensure and
who are proficient in Morse Code.

Wow! I'll bet NO ONE has as pretty a set of dress blues as da
gunnery nurse dill sergeant of the Amateur Corps!

Must wear white gloves when busy beeping.

Len, what the heck is "current licensure?" Does that mean he has a
permit to swim upstream and spawn with the salmon, or he can draw a
few amps from his starter battery?

Seems like it "ain't over yet" to me...

Any time now... :-)

And here's a fun fact: The Basis and Purpose never used the phrase
"experienced
morse operators". Just "experienced operators" - no mention of modes.

That's a LennieRant issue, Jim. Even when the current context DOESN'T
include Morse Code, he'll interject it and then claim we (licensees) are the
ones obsessed with it.

You are. QED. :-)

dit dit.

The nation does NOT need morse operators, haven't for a long time.

How long?

And who said?

Was there a Presidential Executive Order? Did Congress ammend the
Constitution? Did the FCC and NTIA prohibit the use of Morse Code for thier
respective services?

Poor nursie still living in his fantasy world. Tsk, tsk.

He doesn't get out beyond checking out "paid services," I guess.

Even maritime radio has gone over to SSB voice and data modes for
open-ocean communications. That and satellite relay.

NO other radio service besides amateur radio uses any morse code
modes for communications.

IOW, Morse Code is gone by popular demand. Except in the Anachronism
Reenactors Radio League.

There's only two slices of Morse-only spectrum, both are in the VHF
range,

To prove that, I'll tune to 14.010 and listen for his USB call. Nope,
didn't hear it. He's not telling the truth. Again.

and were lobbied for by weak signal operators anxious to see a part of the
spectrum protected for thier work...Mostly EME and meteor scatter techniques,
but the sues are growing.

"Sues?" There's litigation about VHF and up?

No, no. You know, "Sues." His pair of twin blow up dolls. He's
gotten them some augmentation to meet his manly expectations. "So
what if he gets a little on the side."

Oh, my! Those lawyers are into everything, aren't they?

I wouldn't be suprised if they have "Sues" as well. Maybe Philkane
can chime in on that one.

So, the League is a surrogate parent?!? I don't think so.

How many kids have you raised, Len?

Including himself?

Ham radio is all about raising children? Good heavens, I thought
ham radio was all about preserving the morse modes forever and
ever!

One learns something every day!

Ham radio is all about Raising Children!

If a few of them would only grow up it wouldn't be!

Are all the Amateur Extras surrogate parents now? I don't think so.

You aren't.

But that's what he perceives himself as...

Dee, quit this infernal nattering about "parentage" and ham radio.

Why, Len? Because it's really quite an accurate analogy?

It makes Lennie nervous.

He shot blanks all his life, and now any discussion of kids get's him
wound up. That's why he wanted to exert some "parental control" over younger
licensees with that age limit crap.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. I didn't "shoot blanks all my life."

My children are not a subject of discussion in here. They are all
physically and mentally normal.

Next thing you know, he'll be "dialing, dialing, dialing" to get
verification from our wives.

He doesn't understand that our wives are off limits to his little
dramas.

Quit trying to sound off like you've got an influential pair.

Pair of what, Len?

What ever they are, I bet Lennie doesn't have a pair of them...Maybe a
pair of slippers or glasses...Nothing else.

Tsk, tsk. No humor among the PCTA.

[cut to scene of military post and assembly after reveille...female first-
soldier starts calling roll, shouts "sound off like you got a pair!"]

His eyes would be too busy darting from one cover bubble level to the
other than to focus on the female. He would mumble something like,
"MARS IS Amateur Radio, Sir."

Nursie thinks licentiousness (not licensure) is an okay side for hams.
[see other posting of his, the one where he gets angry about "Neil"
and Dubya]

Definitely "current licentiousness."

If you're an example of "professional communicator", than I'm glad to be an
amateur.

So V E R Y glad!

Tsk. The less-than-half-a-year "electronics purchasing agent" couldn't
cut it. Only civilian "electronics job" he ever had. Poor guy.

Well, there's always night school for nursie. :-)

Maybe one day he'll make something of hisself. But what are the odds?

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 7/15/2004 8:41 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: PAMNO (N2EY)
Date: 7/15/2004 11:44 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,

(Len Over 21) writes:

Nonsense for the new millennium.

That's what you're giving us, Len!

Of course it is.

Without any practical experience in Amatuer Radio, how could he render
an
INFORMED opinon on ANYthing having to do with Amateur Radio...???

Riiiiiiight, Stalker. How can ANYONE possibly know anything
about anything without being federally licensed in it?

I didn't say "licensed", Lennie...I said "experienced".

Gosh, in your psychotic fantasyland, amateur radio must be a
classified, sensitive, deep dark secret, revealed only to those "eyes
only" folks who have been background-checked, right?

NOBODY unlicense can possibly know anything at all!

Sure they can...if they ahve some sort of practical experience in it...

Illogical. To have "practical experience" in amateur radio
REQUIRES an amateur license. Those without that magick license
"cannot have any practical experience in it." [Stalker stated that]

Bottom line is that Stalker doesn't know what the hell he is talking
about.

U.S. amateur radio is open for observation to anyone...on the air,
in print, in person to the public.

Stalker is trying vainly to prove that those without licenses cannot
know anything at all about radio. That's absolutely false, a LIE of
bright magnitude, but he can't stop. Tsk.

You are neither licensed OR experienced. Not in AMATEUR RADIO.

Len, what are "morsemen"?

Anything and everything he's not.

I'm a retired electronics engineer with a good retirement income.

You are an ALLEGED electronics engineer.

Sigh. Poor nursie can't help herself with all the insults. :-)

Riiiiiight...I have alleged resumes, alleged history in the alleged
industry, an alleged patent, alleged schooling with alleged skin from
an alleged sheep, know alleged hams who have alleged ham licenses
longer than nursie has allegedly lived. Not only that, the alleged IRS
and alleged tax board and alleged government agencies all allegedly
believe I allegedly did all that. The alleged bank keeps track of all
the alleged income I allegedly made, taking in the alleged social
security check allegely electornically.

Not only that, I was once a long-time member of Joe Sheppard's
The Ledge BBS!

Some in a position to know your "professional" services directly quantify
your skills as "mediocre, at best..."

A LIE, nursie. Bald-faced, out and out LIE.

You don't know squat about the electronics industry or military
electronics or civilian electronics other than reading about ham
radio in QST. YOU DON'T KNOW.

Now YOU produce those NAMES of the "some" you ALLEGE
"know."

You can't because they DON'T EXIST. They are a fermentation of
your hate-filled obsessional, delusional psychosis in here.

Get some mental therapy. From a real shrink.

It will help everyone, even yourself.

Pbththththth.

LHA / WMD

Len, he's a freak. Stay away. "Danger Will Robinson. Danger!"

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

In article ,

(Len Over 21) writes:

In article ,
PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in large
part
because it's easy to enforce.

Nonsense for the new millennium.

That's what you're giving us, Len!

Now, now Rev. Jim. You're off on an evangelical Sermon on the
Antenna Mount again!

You just didn't answer the question I posed about "enforcement
ease." Tsk. tsk. tsk.

Tell us how morse signals are "easier to enforce" than voice
signals. Try a few details of how that is done.

That's going to be a problem for Jimmy Who. His claim is illogical.

Anyway, I'll be standing by waiting for his answer. BTW, I heard the
temperature in hell is falling rapidly.

Don't expect miracles. Not in the answer or the environment of hell.

LHA / WMD

I have more faith in the environment of hell than I do in the
truthfulness of the lobotomized, lock-steppedness of the PCTA.

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 7/15/2004 8:41 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Stevie
Stalker, Mighty Macho Morseman Ethnic Cleanser of Olde Tyme
Hamme Raddio using a Fleet Kit) writes:

"I am only here to civilly debate the Morse Code test issue"

The lies of Lennie Anderson continue.

"Lies" only in nursie's fantasyland.

Poor nursie.

LHA / WMD

Drama Queen