Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:

wrote:
From: N2EY on Apr 12, 4:20 pm

wrote:
What does it matter whether I served in any military or not?

Tsk. Go talk to a REAL WW2
veteran.

I've done that - many times. From several branches of the
US military.

It would have difficult to grow up in the times we did and not
encounter
larges numbers of World War II vets. My dad was a U.S. Navy
veteran of
the Normandy Invasion. A great-uncle was at Bataan. He
survived the
Death March and was held by the Japanese until the end of the
war.

I've known many, many WW2 veterans. Many I got to know quite well.
Some didn't want to talk, others had lots to say.

Just for starters, I know/knew a B-24 navigator who bombed Japan (gave
me some of his maps), a USN submarine torpedoman, a USN radioman (gave
me some of his books - he also served in the Korean War) and a B-24
pilot who bombed Ploesti three times and spent 18 months as "a guest of
the Luftwaffe".

I don't think the latter would find Len's "Kolonel Klunk" insults
to be very funny.

Better yet, visit a VA hospital and
keep some of them company.

That's a good idea!

It is a great idea but it isn't necessary to visit just a VA
hospital.
I can visit any number here who live quietly with spouses, who are
living alone as widowers or who are in nursing homes.

Remember that WW2 ENDED BEFORE you were born.

Why is that of any significance? If anything, it is
more important that those of us who weren't alive then
keep the history alive.

I live just up the hill from Valley Forge, where Washington's
army survived a terrible winter. Also down the pike from where
the Paoli Massacre took place.

That war ended long before *you* were born, Len.

You don't quite have the hang of it, Jim. I'd have used, "That war
ended LONG BEFORE YOU WERE BORN, Len".

Oh yes.

And, you've NEVER served in any military.

How do you know for sure?

And what does it matter anyway?

Notice how Len avoids direct questions?

Yet you make this BIG THING about morse code
in a window display...

Is it wrong to mention an interesting architectural feature?

I read your post and looked in vain for the portion in which
you made it a BIG THING.

It's not a big thing - except to Len.

Does it bother you, Len?

You read his lengthy post and saw the style he used. You bet it
bothered him.

Here's a hint: The Canadian military forces used Morse Code in
WW2.

If I did talk about any military service I had, you would
be certain to make fun of it. It's just what you do, Len.
So typical.

I've seen how you talk to those who *have*
served in the US military, and for various
departments of the US government.

I haven't dissed Bill Sohl about his USN service.

Because he doesn't disagree with you about Morse Code testing in
amateur radio. In fact, he pretty much ignores you.

I haven't dissed Brian Burke about his USAF service.

Because he doesn't disagree with you about Morse Code testing in
amateur radio. In fact, he pretty much idolizes you.

It's only those who disagree with you about Morse Code testing
that get your disrespect, abuse, name calling, and general
jackass behavior.

To be fair, Len has exhibited jackass behavior toward K0HB and Hans
does
not support retention of morse code testing.

Then I guess what bothers Len is when someone says anyhting good about
Morse Code.

I HAVE dissed those that want to LIE about
their big heroic military "actions" such as
Stebie the wonder murine

There you go - calling names. So typical.

...and utterly predictable.

about his famous
"seven hostile actions"

Do you know what they are? Where *you* involved in any of
them?

He doesn't have any idea what they were. It kills him.

Sure seems to.

Is there any reason to doubt that Steve, K4YZ, was involved
if he says he was?

and his failure to
acknowledge that the DoD really does direct
MARS.

I see. His mistake somehow justifies *your* behavior?

To my knowledge, Steve has never stated that DOD does not direct
MARS.
His claim is that if there were no radio amateurs, there'd have been
no
MARS program. In that, he is correct.

Am I supposed to "respect" the infamous Kolonel
Klunk

There you go again - calling names.

Did you really expect otherwise?

No. Utterly predictable.


Godwin invoked. You lose.

Why not use the person's name and callsign?

about his very NON-SPECIFIC "service" in
Vietnam? Just because he brags without revealing
any details?

What difference would details make? Your behavior when
details are given doesn't change. In fact, you simply
use the details as a source of more insults.

That's pretty much why I've left details out. As with Steve's
military
service, Len doesn't know what I did or where I did it and it kills
him.

The important fact is that no matter what you actually
did, Len would dismiss it. We've seen that over and over
and over.

That's why I don't mention my employment. Len would simply make
fun of it.

OTOH, Brian, N0IMD, refuses to give any details about
his claimed amateur radio operation from Somalia, but
that doesn't bother you a bit.

Isn't this about the point at which Leonard or Brian would begin some
litany about a double standard?

Well, they should know ;-)


Just because he was in the State
Department?

Do you mean Dave, K8MN, who served in the US State Department
at a number of foreign posts as a communications officer?

His service to our country was much longer than your, Len, and
in many more foreign countries.

...and Len has invariably demeaned that service. He has always known
more about my job that I did. Foreign service tours were dismissed
as
tropical backwaters, places of insignificance and Cashew capitals.

It wouldn't matter where you were or what you did, Len
would demean and insult your service.

I recall when he was transferred
to right around the same time the US Embassy in the country he was
transferring to was bombed. We didn't hear from him for weeks.
Luckily he was OK.

Luckily, he was on holiday between the assignments and was comfy
right
here in West Virginia when the news broke. I arrived in Tanzania
three
weeks after the embassy bombing. The embassy was in ruins.
Operations
were carried out from a residence for six months while a new
temporary
embassy was constructed. It was my busiest assignment.

I doubt the bombers waited for you to leave when scheduling their
attack.

Yet you argued with him at length about communications facilities
that he used - even though you've never worked for the State
Department.

Don't leave out his attempts at insult by stating that my name never
appeared in any lists of embassy staff. That blew up in his face
when I
produced a couple of urls in which I was listed. Len's response was
to
dismiss the lists as some sort of telephone directory.

Oh yes - I do recall that now.

Of course I "should."

Yes, you should.

Perhaps you have forgotten the US Coast Guard radio operator who
used to post here? You made fun of his service in that capacity,
in your now-famous "sphincter post".

Why?

Because Len is all about Len. That isn't the important part though.
The important part is where Len's sphincter post speaks of what it is
like to be in battle. Len was never in battle.

I think the important part is that Len demeaned and insulted
the services of a skilled military radio operator, for no
good reason at all.

That behavior speaks volumes.

All those infamous types
are pro-coders and YOU love morse code, so much
so that you think ham radio is all about morse-
manship...

Len - lest we forget - you're not a radio amateur. You've never
been a
radio amateur. Yet you see fit to tell all how amateur
radio should be. You're not and never have been part of the FCC,
either.

As far as I'm concerned, amateur radio is about operating any mode I
choose on any band I choose. Len isn't involved on any level.

That's right.

If the person disagrees with you on almost any
issue, you treat them *and their service*
with little or no respect at all.

Tsk, tsk. Better contact the Department of the
Army of the United States and DEMAND my Good
Conduct medal be given up and sent back! :-)

I don't demand anything like that, Len.

You make fun of them and their service for
no apparent reason other than a failed
attempt at what you consider "humor".

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Those "veterans" (at least one
with "seven hostile actions") have all been
about as disrespectful to me FIRST.

No, they haven't. At least not to anyone rational.

No, they haven't.

You apparently see any disagreement with your
cherished beliefs about Morse Code testing in amateur
radio as "disrespect", and then proceed in your
completely predictable manner.

They got
what is known as "return fire."

For saying good things about Morse Code, apparently.

Poor things.
Thought they could pull a snow job on everyone
else and make themselves real "big" in others'
eyes. They should have stayed down at the
Legion Hall bar.

Len knows more about what others did than those involved. Len knows
more about the military. Len knows more about communications. Len
knows more about radio operation. Len knows more about the U.S.
Department of State.
Len knows more about your work. Len knows more about Brian Kelly's
work.
Len knows more about Steve's work.

Len doesn't know anything about my work. He could not do my
job. That *really* bothers him.


You mean like somebody who tells us the same story,
over and over and over and over again,
about his service at a big radio facility 50+ years
ago? Then gets mad because people point out his
underestimation of distances, and mistakes about
Soviet aircraft deployment dates?

Whatever Len did at ADA more than a half century ago impacts amateur
radio not in the least. Len tells it because he wants to be sure
that
everyone knows of it.


Except it isn't funny.

Not to you. But, you've NOT served in the military.

How do you know for sure?

Do *you* think it's funny, Len? Why? Those whom you make
fun of don't seem to be amused.

Besides, the point is that you make fun of the military service of
those who disagree with you about Morse code testing in amateur
radio.
Even though you're not an amateur radio operator, never have been,
and
probably never will be.

Your body too precious to get it harmed in REAL
service for your country?

Why, no, Len. I don't think that at all. Never have.

Is military service the only REAL service, Len? I guess
all those police officers, firefighters, EMTs, and other
uniformed people who go in harm's way don't count, do they?

How about the utility workers who keep the lights on and the water
flowing? Or the highway, airline, transit, railroad and maritime
workers who keep transportation running?

Or health care workers, exposed to who-knows-what every day on the
job?

Guess they don't count either - to you.

Couldn't get a dinner date with the Captain
because the King of the Katapults was already
booked on that aircraft carrier?

More name calling - so typical of you.


Let's all stand up and salute this brave "member of the
service."

There you go again! So typical.

I served. YOU did NOT.

How does that give you the right to insult others' service?

How does it give him the right to insult those who never served?

Good question!

You want to see more of what I did in ARMY service?

No. You've told us over and over and over again. That's
enough.

Now you've done it, Jim. You've denigrated a veteran.

How?

I simply don't want to read Len's story about ADA again. He's posted it
here so many times I can recite it from memory. But
he never explains why it has any bearing on amateur radio policy today.

I don't want to read it again.

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:
Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:

wrote:
From: N2EY on Apr 12, 4:20 pm

wrote:

To be fair, Len has exhibited jackass behavior toward K0HB and Hans
does
not support retention of morse code testing.

Then I guess what bothers Len is when someone says anyhting good
about
Morse Code.

What bothers Lennie most is that people who DIDN'T get "paid" for
their radio expertise know more about radio than he could hope to know.
Hans has considerable experience, ergo he catches The Wrath of Lennie.

I HAVE dissed those that want to LIE about
their big heroic military "actions" such as
Stebie the wonder murine

What keeps me laughing is that Lennie has mentioned my USMC
service far more than I could ever hope to or want to!

There you go - calling names. So typical.

...and utterly predictable.

about his famous
"seven hostile actions"

Do you know what they are? Where *you* involved in any of
them?

He doesn't have any idea what they were. It kills him.

Sure seems to.

And I am more than happy to pull THAT "trigger"...!

Don't leave out his attempts at insult by stating that my name
never
appeared in any lists of embassy staff. That blew up in his face
when I
produced a couple of urls in which I was listed. Len's response
was
to
dismiss the lists as some sort of telephone directory.

Oh yes - I do recall that now.

He's tried to re-open that can of worms on a couple of
occassions...It didn't work the first time...didn't work on the
subsequent passes.

Len knows more about what others did than those involved. Len
knows
more about the military. Len knows more about communications. Len
knows more about radio operation. Len knows more about the U.S.
Department of State.
Len knows more about your work. Len knows more about Brian Kelly's
work.
Len knows more about Steve's work.

Len doesn't know anything about my work. He could not do my
job. That *really* bothers him.

Part of Lennie's problem is that he didn't want to do much of HIS
work...At least on one occassion that I have inside knowledge of. Or
rather I SHOULD say he wasn't CAPABLE of doing his job...Hence his
interrupted tenure at Warminster. My bad.

Let's all stand up and salute this brave "member of the
service."

There you go again! So typical.

I served. YOU did NOT.

How does that give you the right to insult others' service?

How does it give him the right to insult those who never served?

Good question!

Lennie signed on the dotted line and went to boot camp...wore the
uniform, even. But can we call what he really did "serving"...?!?!? In
even the loosest, most liberal interpretations, I guess he did...

And his "I Am A War Hero Because I Served In A Unit That Had KIA's
Before I Ever Got There" embellishments is like "negative points".

You want to see more of what I did in ARMY service?

No. You've told us over and over and over again. That's
enough.

Now you've done it, Jim. You've denigrated a veteran.

How?

Take away his Geritol and you'll see how!

I simply don't want to read Len's story about ADA again. He's posted
it
here so many times I can recite it from memory. But
he never explains why it has any bearing on amateur radio policy
today.

I don't want to read it again.

Amen.

73

Steve, K4YZ

wrote:
The new Canadian War Museum opens May 7-8

http://www.warmuseum.ca/cwm/opening/celebrate_e.html

Some of the windows spell out "Lest We Forget" in Morse Code.

73 de Jim, N2EY

I thought that people went to Canada to avoid war, and here they
dedicate a museum to war. Wonder where Jim went to engineering school?

wrote:

What does it matter whether I served in any military or not?

Kind of makes it hard to be a Veteran if you didn't serve.

Here's a hint: The Canadian military forces used Morse Code in
WW2.

Oh, now I see the connections. Because you saw photos of Ham soldiers
in QST, and you're a ham, you "served" by extension. The coat-tail
connection.

I could go on about the political and economic effects, but since
this
is a radio newsgroup I thought I'd stick to electronic and
radio subjects.

And Canadian war museum topics.

If I did talk about any military service I had, you would
be certain to make fun of it. It's just what you do, Len.
So typical.

You "served" in other ways. And Kelly has "real" military experience.

It's only those who disagree with you about Morse Code testing
that get your disrespect, abuse, name calling, and general
jack(expletive deleted] behavior.

Do you eat with that mouth?

Is there any reason to doubt that Steve, K4YZ, was involved
if he says he was?

Is there any reason to not apply Steve's rules of facts to Steve's
claims?

I see. His mistake somehow justifies *your* behavior?

Mistake? He's had ample opportunity to correct that mistake. Instead
he piles up the lies.

There you go again - calling names.

"jack(expletive deleted] behavior"

Godwin invoked. You lose.

Why not use the person's name and callsign?

Kim, W5TIT.

Miccolis invoked. You lose.

Rest of your double-standards snipped.

From: on Wed,Apr 13 2005 4:28 am

Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:

wrote:
From: N2EY on Apr 12, 4:20 pm

wrote:

most skipped for brevity...


I simply don't want to read Len's story about ADA again. He's posted
it
here so many times I can recite it from memory. But
he never explains why it has any bearing on amateur radio policy
today.

I've already explained the "bearing it has" years ago.
Let's take it again, from the top...

Back in the beginning of the 1950s, the U.S. military
was NOT using any morse code modes for long-distance
point-to-point communications. Most of that message
"traffic" was written teleprinter that carried the
vast majority of military communications.

NO morse code modes were used on such radio circuits
afterwards. That SHOULD have some meaning to rational
persons insofar as the efficacy of morse code for
communications...in short, morse code was way too slow,
too prone to human errors by its operators, and
generally so inefficient that, by now, EVERY other
radio service has either DROPPED the mode (if they used
it at all in the past) or NEVER CONSIDERED it when that
radio service began. The sole exception is AMATEUR
radio...a hobby pursuit, a recreation, something done
on free time for enjoyment.

For over half a century (actually, since before WW2)
the brunt of messaging in the military has been done
by modes OTHER than morse code. An approximation of
the amount of such military traffic is a minimum of
1 1/2 MILLION messages a MONTH back in 1955. It was
not trivial, it wasn't confined to a few ship's radio
rooms. It was the logistical supply "glue" that
enabled the United States military to support itself
worldwide. It was necessary to keep "getting the
messages through" as the old, and still current,
Signal Corps phrase puts it.

It should be obvious to rational people that there is
NO need for any morse code testing for a hobby radio
activity. It is NOT a "national service." It is NOT
needed to "maintain a reserve of 'skilled' radio
operators" for the nation or even a locality.

What morse code testing for a hobby radio activity
has become is a travesty, a gross artificiality kept
in there by old-timers who managed to pass such tests
and keep insisting that all newcomers MUST do as they
did. There is NO rational reason for that. There is
only the artificiality of some hazing exercise so
that those who pass can adopt the artificiality of
doing something that few can. Nonsense.


I don't want to read it again.

Naturally, since you are one of those old-timers who
thinks of little else but morse code operation on
the HF amateur bands. You want to enforce your own
private desires and accomplishment goals on others
regardless of their wishes or the irrationality of your
demands.

You don't want to read it because someone else was
able to be in a position to do REAL HF communications
all the time. That's way above the average amateur
experience. You resent knowing that another has done
it. But...you are going to have to live with it.

"It ain't braggin if ya done it..." I did it.

From: on Wed,Apr 13 2005 4:28 am

Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:

wrote:
From: N2EY on Apr 12, 4:20 pm

wrote:

most skipped for brevity...


I simply don't want to read Len's story about ADA again. He's posted
it
here so many times I can recite it from memory. But
he never explains why it has any bearing on amateur radio policy
today.

I've already explained the "bearing it has" years ago.
Let's take it again, from the top...

Back in the beginning of the 1950s, the U.S. military
was NOT using any morse code modes for long-distance
point-to-point communications. Most of that message
"traffic" was written teleprinter that carried the
vast majority of military communications.

NO morse code modes were used on such radio circuits
afterwards. That SHOULD have some meaning to rational
persons insofar as the efficacy of morse code for
communications...in short, morse code was way too slow,
too prone to human errors by its operators, and
generally so inefficient that, by now, EVERY other
radio service has either DROPPED the mode (if they used
it at all in the past) or NEVER CONSIDERED it when that
radio service began. The sole exception is AMATEUR
radio...a hobby pursuit, a recreation, something done
on free time for enjoyment.

For over half a century (actually, since before WW2)
the brunt of messaging in the military has been done
by modes OTHER than morse code. An approximation of
the amount of such military traffic is a minimum of
1 1/2 MILLION messages a MONTH back in 1955. It was
not trivial, it wasn't confined to a few ship's radio
rooms. It was the logistical supply "glue" that
enabled the United States military to support itself
worldwide. It was necessary to keep "getting the
messages through" as the old, and still current,
Signal Corps phrase puts it.

It should be obvious to rational people that there is
NO need for any morse code testing for a hobby radio
activity. It is NOT a "national service." It is NOT
needed to "maintain a reserve of 'skilled' radio
operators" for the nation or even a locality.

What morse code testing for a hobby radio activity
has become is a travesty, a gross artificiality kept
in there by old-timers who managed to pass such tests
and keep insisting that all newcomers MUST do as they
did. There is NO rational reason for that. There is
only the artificiality of some hazing exercise so
that those who pass can adopt the artificiality of
doing something that few can. Nonsense.


I don't want to read it again.

Naturally, since you are one of those old-timers who
thinks of little else but morse code operation on
the HF amateur bands. You want to enforce your own
private desires and accomplishment goals on others
regardless of their wishes or the irrationality of your
demands.

You don't want to read it because someone else was
able to be in a position to do REAL HF communications
all the time. That's way above the average amateur
experience. You resent knowing that another has done
it. But...you are going to have to live with it.

"It ain't braggin if ya done it..." I did it.

bb wrote:
wrote:

What does it matter whether I served in any military or not?

Kind of makes it hard to be a Veteran if you didn't serve.

But then comes you. A licensee with no antenna. In your case one has to
conclude that becoming a Veteran was easier than putting up an antenna.