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#1
May 29th 05, 08:42 PM
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Oh yeah -- take a look at San Diego youth training -- URL: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/n...-1mi7hams.html Only one of several schools here that are training school kids So what are you doing to get more "young'uns" into the Amateur Radio Service ? -- CL -- I doubt, therefore I might be ! "Jim Hampton" wrote in message ... "Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... Many people lament that there is not enough interest in Ham radio by young people. |
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#2
May 29th 05, 10:42 PM
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"Caveat Lector" wrote in message news:MWome.7049$vp.262@fed1read07... Oh yeah -- take a look at San Diego youth training -- URL: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/n...-1mi7hams.html Only one of several schools here that are training school kids So what are you doing to get more "young'uns" into the Amateur Radio Service ? -- CL -- I doubt, therefore I might be ! So what am I doing trying to get young folks into amateur radio? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HamRadioHelpGroup With all due regards to UALLbeware ... Jim AA2QA |
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#3
May 31st 05, 04:00 PM
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Jim Hampton wrote:
Fasten your seatbelts. We're going down fast and it is going to be a bumpy ride. Sad to say, you stand a very good chance of being right! 8^( - Mike KB3EIA - |
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#4
May 29th 05, 08:12 PM
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Mike Coslo wrote:
.. . . . So what makes a youngster decide to become a Ham? We can try using the input of those who became Hams at a young age. Most of what I have heard is that the person was very interested in the technical aspects involved with getting on the air. Making antennas, building rigs, and getting them on the air was a big part of the attraction. I was one of those back in the "Golden Era" of ham radio. There were two basic types of kids who got into ham radio. Those who had a strong interest in electronics and enjoyed building their rigs and such many of whom went on to become EEs and EE techs. The other category consisted of kids whose interests were in using ham radio to *communicate*. I was one of those. I was a certified geek from a tender age but I didn't have much interest in electronics as such because I was far more interested in things mechanical which eventually led me into a career in mechanical enginering with DXing and contesting strictly on a hobby basis. Others in this group had no particular interests in technical matters at all. When I look back at all the kid hams I knew and what they've done since then on the job and in the hobby it's about a 30/70 split. 30% are into electronics, 70% are not and never were. One of my young ham acquaintances from back then became a priest for instance. As often as not having to study electronics and do soldering iron pushups were friggin' obstacles to getting on the air. In the end, I believe that it is young people that have a technical interest that will likely become Hams. And that, I believe, is the crux of the issue. Sort of. Bottom line here though is that ham radio has historically attracted a much broader group of kids than just those with an interest in electronics. America is not a place that encourages those who might be thinking of a technical career. We have a tendency to encourage a more "pop culture" outlook, which as often as not discounts actual learning for "street cred", There's another factor here. I raised three kids and they're raising a total of five kids under Pop-pop's "close supervision". The problem I'm seeing at least within today's version of the Yuppy class is overprogrammed kids and sports. Their lives are consumed by carefully planned "events" mom & dad have arranged for them. Football practice here then more football practice, soccer practice, two swim meets this week and oops let's not forget Corryne's dance class and there goes mom "Crap, I gotta be in three places at the same time again!" There aren't any open slots in the kids' schedules for some quiet soldering iron time on their own. It's obsessive, massive and insane. and actually turns the smart person into an object of ridicule. I'm not laying any claims to being particulary smart and I took a lot of cheap shots about being a geek up thru my junior high school years. I wasn't alone with this problem either, all us young hams had to deal with it to one extent or another. I was lucky because I've never been bothered by "peer pressure", fuggem, "meet me out by the swings after school . . ". The wilting lilly type geeks had it much tougher but I don't remember any who pulled out of ham radio because of the crap they took from other kids. The big drivers kids have is their parents, if the parents support their interests the geeks will be OK. If the parents don't support or think much of their interests the geek kids have a real problem. My parents were very supportive of my interest in ham radio (except when I blotted out the TV while Dad while watching the Friday nite Gillete fights. "Radios off NOW". Click). I don't see where life has changed very much in this respect. There are levels, and there are levels. If a person is intelligent, and wants a good livelihood, you will find careers that are acceptable. You can be a movie star, or perhaps a lawyer. A whole spectrum follows, but engineering and the technical fields are not very high on that list. How often is the Techie portrayed as a sort of Bill Nye, the science guy type (at best). How about the smart woman who takes off her glasses and suddenly becomes the hot babe? Professor Frink on "The Simpsons"? Pop culture is not kind to the technical types. My experiences with programs like "bring your sons and daughters to work day" shows that almost none of the kids is even thinking of a technical field. A lot want to be lawyers. Kids ain't stupid, they follow the money. Problem there is that one of these days the lawyer biz is gonna tank because of overpopulation. Once in the past, we were scared into thinking that maybe science and technology was maybe not such a bad thing. That happened when the commies launched Sputnik. Suddenly it seemed important that at least some of our kids decided to work in the sciences. Hopefully we will decide that again without having to be shocked into it. Don't even get me started on that debacle. I was one of the first to find Sputnik 1 on 15M which I did with the ham club's old Hammarlund rcvr. Long story but I'll spare ya that one. Kids flocked to engineering schools in battalions then they dumped into the Apollo program. When that bubble broke months after the Apollo program ended several years later something like 200,000 graduate engineers found themselves out on the bricks looking for jobs. I met a guy in that timeframe who was one of those. You won't believe this one but it's true: This guy had spent his entire professional career "engineering" NASA control and annunciator panel PILOT LAMPS for God's sake! He finally found a job as a real estate agent and barely beat the sheriff to the title for his abode. Thousands of others weren't so lucky. These guys (and a few gals, very few) have raised their kids and are becoming grandparents today. They have clout, they been there in volume. I wouldn't expect them to encourage acquiring technical educations, at least not in engineering, I would expect a lot of lingering bitterness about engineering careers on their parts. As much as I've enjoyed my 40+ year engineering career even I'd hesitate about encouraging a kid to get into the biz. Like everything else the engineering of the products we use is being shipped offshore. I dunno, don't look good to me . . I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. I agree with that 100% but it would take years to have any noticeable effect. Taking the topic out a bit further so what if ham radio shrinks, even if it shrinks a bunch? What would be the real-world implications? A bit less clout at the FCC? The League might have to lay off a few bodies? After that what?? We have a helluva lot more hams today per capita today than we had back in the "Golden Era". If we lost half of us we'd still be ahead. We've been sitting ducks for years with respect to losing some of our spectrum space above 30Mhz. and it has nothing do with the number of valid ham tickets. The huge change from the "Golden Era" involves the HF spectrum. HF radio has become almost passe as far as it's commercial value is concerned. Hell, the FCC is dumping BPL all over it, sez it all. So I don't see where even a precipitous drop the number of ham tickets will have any effect on our HF privs. So what's left to get excited about?? With or without kids citizens of all ages will continue to come into the hobby which will continue to evolve just like it has for the past century. I dunno what ham radio will be like 25-50 out but my hunch is that it'll be smaller, maybe much smaller but still very much alive and well. The future is much bigger than any of us or the even the ARRL (gasp!), there's absolutely nothing we can do about any of it. Rants and hand-wringing in this NG notwithstanding. Let it roll and enjoy the trip people. - Mike KB3EIA - w3rv |
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#5
May 29th 05, 10:02 PM
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Mike Coslo wrote:
Many people lament that there is not enough interest in Ham radio by young people. Agreed - but how much would be enough? There are often many reasons given for this deficiency, and somewhat less "fixes". One of the reasons that is given very often is that Amateur radio is in some sort of competition with the Internet. Every activity is in competition with every other. What is the competition between the two? In order to use the internet, one must of course have a computer. It must be connected to the internet, through one of several methods. Once the person has learned to turn on the computer, open a few programs or so, they have the necessary skills to work the internet. Yup. But there's mo A computer has many uses, from being a glorified typewriter to a serious research/calculation device to gaming to producing all sorts of multimedia stuff. Most decent white-collar jobs today require computer skills. Many blue-collar jobs also require them. Amateur radio on the other hand, requires that a radio be used, which requires some skill in operating. An antenna system needs to be connected to this radio. Whereas it is possible to have everything set up for the Ham, most young people do not have the resources to have someone set up their system. Coupled with the possibility of putting an antenna in operation that only costs a few dollars, or even less if the youngster has good scrounging skills, the likelihood is that they would design and put up their own antenna, another skill needed. So there is a large difference in the skills needed for the two hobbies. You're missing a couple of other points, Mike. Computers are all over the place, inexpensive, and often available as hand-me-downs. PCs only a few years old can be had for next-to-nothing. Some people live in places where putting up an antenna - *any* antenna - is banned by CC&Rs. A family isn't likely to move so that Junior can put up a G5RV. Cell phones as competition? While there is a temptation to snipe "Get Real!", I'll address those too. What would make a person decide to take up Cell phone use as a hobby? Cell phones allow you to talk to people that you know (for the most part) and operate in the same manner as a regular telephone, save that you take the cell with you, and you are generally tied in the same building with a standard telephone. It's hard to imagine someone doing that as a hobby, although there are a lot of people who spend a lot of time using them. You missed the point, Mike. Before cell phones became inexpensive and ubiquitous, the average person didn't have many options for personal mobile/portable communications. There was ham radio and cb and not much else. Cell phones changed all that. So what makes a youngster decide to become a Ham? Same things that make anyone else. We can try using the input of those who became Hams at a young age. Most of what I have heard is that the person was very interested in the technical aspects involved with getting on the air. Making antennas, building rigs, and getting them on the air was a big part of the attraction. I was one of those people - licensed at age 13. With no real help from the parents, btw. In the end, I believe that it is young people that have a technical interest that will likely become Hams. More complex than that. There are three basic areas of interest involved: 1) Technical (likes to fool around with radio stuff) 2) Operating (likes the actual operating experience) 3) Communicating (likes the message content more than the medium) Most hams' reasons for getting into the ARS are a mixture of the three. For example, I know some DXers whose main focus is #2. They love the thrill of the chase, hunting down the new ones, etc. Their stations are technical wonders - but the technical stuff is simply a means to an end, not the end in itself. Then there are the ragchew types who have real long-term friendships on-air. Their focus is mainly #3. Or the techno types who are always working on a project but rarely on the air. Once they get something working really well, the excitement is gone and they're off to something else. And that, I believe, is the crux of the issue. I think it's more complex. America is not a place that encourages those who might be thinking of a technical career. We have a tendency to encourage a more "pop culture" outlook, which as often as not discounts actual learning for "street cred", and actually turns the smart person into an object of ridicule. There are levels, and there are levels. If a person is intelligent, and wants a good livelihood, you will find careers that are acceptable. You can be a movie star, or perhaps a lawyer. A whole spectrum follows, but engineering and the technical fields are not very high on that list. Agreed. How often is the Techie portrayed as a sort of Bill Nye, the science guy type (at best). How many TV shows and movies ever depict engineering or technical folks at all, compared to other fields like health care or law enforcement? How about the smart woman who takes off her glasses and suddenly becomes the hot babe? Bailey Quarters. Although she's hot with the glasses *on*, as well.. Professor Frink on "The Simpsons"? Pop culture is not kind to the technical types. Been that way for a long time, Mike. My experiences with programs like "bring your sons and daughters to work day" shows that almost none of the kids is even thinking of a technical field. A lot want to be lawyers. Or business types, or a lot of other things. Once in the past, we were scared into thinking that maybe science and technology was maybe not such a bad thing. That happened when the commies launched Sputnik. Yeah - who'd a thunk they could do something like that? Suddenly it seemed important that at least some of our kids decided to work in the sciences. Hopefully we will decide that again without having to be shocked into it. No, today is worse. The society seems unshockable. Look at where so much stuff today is made... I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. The fact of the matter is that amateur radio has always been a rather specialized activity anyway. I graduated high school in 1972 - the golden age of space and technology, right? In my high school of 2500 boys there were at most six licensed hams. In the girls' school next door there were *none*. 5000 middle class kids in suburban Philly, going to schools where the emphasis was on math and science, and there were but a handful of hams. And this was in an era before CC&Rs, cable TV, VCRs, cell phones, PCs, etc. 73 de Jim, N2EY The most popular highschool technical activity back then was working on cars. A kid with a few tools and skills could get a few dollars together, buy an old heap and get on the road. |
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#6
May 30th 05, 02:57 AM
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#7
May 30th 05, 07:24 AM
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From: Mike Coslo on May 29, 9:57 pm
wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: Many people lament that there is not enough interest in Ham radio by young people. Agreed - but how much would be enough? Dunno. I personally agree somewhat with Brian K's assertion that the absolute number of Hams could indeed drop without serious problems. On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages. Younger hobbyists have to be there to "take orders" from the older ones? :-) There are often many reasons given for this deficiency, and somewhat less "fixes". One of the reasons that is given very often is that Amateur radio is in some sort of competition with the Internet. Every activity is in competition with every other. Among teen-agers? How can you possibly say that? :-) Surely. Comparisons between the two show that Amateur radio is a tad bit more involved than buying a computer, doing a dialup and surfing the net. Will a person who's idea of a hobby is clicking a mouse button find Amateur radio a tad intimidating? Tsk, tsk. Ham speak with forked tongue on inpugning "no intellect required." A sort of Deus Ex Mousina attitude. Mike, you were never into computers and BBSs before the Macintosh mouse debuted, were you? Lots and lots of ALL ages were BBSing, having a great time without the GUI, well before Windows, when not on-line they were doing programming, writing games, "unprotecting" protected disks, experimenting with the first modem advancements, etc. Budding authors were practicing writing and established writers were generating manuscripts with relative ease. Accounting people had discovered the first spreadsheets and increased the efficiency of their inventory, financial records, establishing both schedules and prices of products they were making. ALL BEFORE the advent of either the computer Mouse or GUI. To get an HF transceiver in their vehicles, both young and old could buy a set of transceiver, antenna, microphone for under $200 from Sears, K-Mart, Wall-Mart, etc. in the morning and have it installed and working in the afternoon. Of course that was "CB" and therefore "lowly" and, to some, "criminal." :-) [all before the GUI and mouse] I have to admit that putting up one's ham station DOES take some smarts. One copies an antenna design out of the ARRL Antenna Handbook, getting somewhat close to the dimensions. One can copy a whole transceiver design out of the ARRL Handbook, then rescue themselves by scrapping the unworking project with a ready-built transceiver bought at HRO (reviews of performance presented by the "ARRL Lab" and published in QST). They can even buy coax cable assemblies when they are unable to put on PL-259s right, even buy whole antenna kits. I'd say that was "plug and play" on the same order as PCs, but before Microsith came out with that marketing/sales phrase. :-) A computer has many uses, from being a glorified typewriter to a serious research/calculation device to gaming to producing all sorts of multimedia stuff. Don't forget surfing porn. A great way to build character! 8^) Tsk, Mike. You never saw "dirty pictures" elsewhere (not over a computer) when you were "building (your own) character?" :-) Most decent white-collar jobs today require computer skills. Many blue-collar jobs also require them. True enough. There aren't a lot of businesses or corporations that need "ham radio skills" (even discounting morse code). Back before the GUI and computer mousies, push-to-talk two-way radios were common in business large and small, with public safety organizations, in the military, and in government. All easy to use...and NOT on amateur bands nor needing morse code skills. Not missing a point. To me, computers are like underwear - pretty much gotta have it. I've not seen any "HANES" computer bramds in stores... Some people live in places where putting up an antenna - *any* antenna - is banned by CC&Rs. A family isn't likely to move so that Junior can put up a G5RV. Unless either of you have some NEW info courtesy of the U.S. Census Bureau, you will find the MOST residences in the USA do NOT have such restrictions. Heh! i had a thought -maybe we could get some of the rebellious types to go stealth! 8^) You haven't heard of MOBILE or even HAND-HELD transceivers?!? Actually, I think you missed my point! My point is that if a person is making a choice of hobbies to get into, the concept of choosing between Amateur radio and using a cell phone just isn't in the mix. I see trendy teens with cell phones glued to their heads every day. I can only assume that they spend hours each day on them. I can guarantee that that kid has never considered amateur radio as a hobby. How do you present this "guarantee?" In writing? From "long experience" in observation? [remember there are a few of us who've been around longer and seen MORE teeners - even been one once - have MANY DIFFERENT observations of others over the past half century] I doubt they consider their cells as a hobby either. So it is pretty hard to think of that as competition. Competition for teeners' TIME. They have the same 24 hours a day as adults and infants, the same need to sleep, eat, and do other things (such as attend school). How many TV shows and movies ever depict engineering or technical folks at all, compared to other fields like health care or law enforcement? TV shows and Movies are for ENTERTAINMENT of enough customers that will pay the Producers of same...and artists. Entertainment shows go for the Emotions of the audience. One show made a start toward a good positive presentation of engineers and techies. It was Star Trek. The original series had a very kind treatment of Scottie, the engineer. ...who ran the works of a SPACESHIP (circa 1967) as thunk up by MOVIE people, the Producers, the Writers, the scenery and prop designers. NOT "techie" insofar as our then-present society was. EMOTION stuff, NOT education. I graduated high school in 1972 - the golden age of space and technology, right? Well, pretty close to the end of it.... NOT EVEN CLOSE. Having been IN the "space business" since 1964 and working for the manufacturer of the Space Shuttle Main Engine (as well as the Apollo first-stage engine), you both missed the Space Shuttle program and well over a hundred STS missions. You've MISSED the unmanned vehicle missions and negated the tremendous data gathered by the Mars rovers and the trips to the outer edges of our solar system. You two have completely ignored when the "personal computer" made its debuts beginning in the mid-1970s, and suddenly skyrocketing after 1980. You've missed the first computer networking of BBSs that began in the late 1970s or have recognized the Internet phenomenon happening after it went public in 1991. Perhaps you've both become too blase' about computers and the Internet? My basic thesis is that we as a society are moving toward the celebration of the ordinary, the mundane. We have lost our edge. And that can only last for so long. Tsk, your own middle-age angst is mumbling. :-) I've heard the SAME sort of complaint by others about their generations' folly for about six decades. :-) If we can celebrate those who *DO* things instead of simply consume things, we might reverse that trend. That has been going on in nearly all technological endeavors for as long as I can remember. The DO-ers are celebrated. A survey of the IEEE Milestone history program in electronics demonstrates that, a program that is shared with other technological associations. The birth of the first "hard drive" has been Milestoned recently...IBM's RAMAC and the Model 350 disk storage system (1956) out of a small IBM lab in Silicon Valley. But, to be celebrated, you MUST do something that others consider more remarkable than average. Your own personal accomplishment is NOT enough. One isn't a DO-er just by making something and showing it on the Internet to a wide ranging viewing audience, then proclaiming its "greatness." Neither is one a DO-er by explaining what they "will" do and expecting plaudits BEFORE they've ever done anything. |
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#8
May 30th 05, 09:44 AM
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#9
May 31st 05, 08:30 PM
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From: "K4YZ" on Mon 30 May 2005 01:44
wrote: From: Mike Coslo on May 29, 9:57 pm NOT EVEN CLOSE. Having been IN the "space business" since 1964 and working for the manufacturer of the Space Shuttle Main Engine...(SNIP) Even aerospace industries have to hire janitors, Lennie...I am sure you were very enthusiastic in your duties. IN aerospace industry doing specific space related work: Electro-Optical Systems, Pasadena, CA (then a Division of Xerox, now a Division of Loral) as spacecraft fabrication engineer. Clean room environment, strict QC, microwelding of "cordwood" and all soldering/inspection under 10x stereo microscopes. Unmanned spacecraft packages included Mars Mariner 67, Quadrupole Spectrometer, ALSEP (Apollo Lunar Surface Experiment Pacakage) SWS (Solar Wind Spectrometer). 1960s. Rocketdyne Division of Rockwell International, Canoga Park, CA MTS II (Member of the Technical Staff), Instrumentation Engineering Group, doing instrumentation design for laser deformable mirror program (an initial part of the "Star Wars" program under President Reagan), LOX flowmeter replacement on the SSME (Space Shuttle Main Engine - there are three on each Shuttle), classified work for Atomics International (a spin-off of Rocketdyne, also owned by Rockwell then). 1980s. Boeing Aircraft Company bought Rocketdyne a few years ago and sales are pending for Rocketdyne to be sold to another corporation. Rocketdyne was originally a Division of North American Aviation; Rockwell bought that with the Division being part of the package. Shuttle was designed and built by the main aviation group. NO custodial services performed for any employer, any time. I was enthused by nearly ALL projects. So, what did Stebie do after being fired as a Purchasing Agent of a small company after less than a half year of employment? Go back into custodial services or continue cleaning bed pans? :-) Temper fry. |
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