you give them far too much credit.... they are just self-centered old
fools--****ed off the world passes them by... like a dying captain who
takes his ship down with him--they have gotten it backwards--nothing is
noble in such activities....

Warmest regards,
John

wrote in message
oups.com...
From: John Smith on Jun 8, 5:35 pm

Yes.

Well, you cannot disguise the fact that the over 60 crowd just don't
have the energy or enthusiasm as the teenage to 30 crowd--or the fact
that these younger people are actively engaged in the research,
development and production phases of electronics. Why they may
effectively hang on limiting the hobby--this cannot not go on
indefinitely...

And, while it is true only those with a wet diaper can truly
appreciate
change--change is in the wind... the next decade should provide a dip
in number of licenses which has never been seen before... this is
only
the beginning...

The mighty macho morsemen cannot conceive of that. They are
immortal. They RULE. [they've said as much...]

However, "energy and enthusiasm" is a function of both individual
genes and mental outlook. "Enthusiasm" in half-century-old state-
of-the-art techiques and practices should be consigned to niche
nostalgia places, not kept as federal regulations.

Many of the stratification crowd seem to hang onto their
"enthusiasm" of their young days as if it were a lifeline to
some imagined fountain of youth promising that they will
remain younger than springtime by holding to old paradigms.
[Rodgers and Hammerstein could do a great musical opera on
that if Rodgers wasn't a silent (piano) key and Oscar wasn't
a silent pen...but it wouldn't play in Newington] [well,
maybe a version of "Carousel" since these olde-fahrts keep
going around and around and around...]

My own viewpoint is different. By virtue of being born when
I was, my lifetime has seen the comming of the solid-state
era and the definite decay of vacuum tube technology...that
bringing a virtual explosion of different applications, new
and exciting SOCs (Systems On a Chip)...plus a whole new set
of passive and semi-active components and ways to hold them all
together. Technology-wise that is truly WONDERFUL and
MARVELOUS. We all have the capability of high-speed data and
imagery communications internationally, 24/7, no worries about
the condition of the ionosphere...all for less than $2000 in
today's dollars to get a "mainframe" computer on a desk and
a year's subscription to an ISP. Buy-sell-trade, do personal
banking, keep family in touch at all times etc., etc., etc.
My personal enthusiasm on the technology just grows and grows
from keeping in touch with the new developments and seeing
the products (some delivered to my door after electronic
ordering). I'm not going to see the end of even if the
mortal world sees my end. That's the way of humans being.

Others, the stratification crowd, the staunch defenders of the
status quo, demand a HALT to progress, NO CHANGE. Keep all
nice and tidy and belonging just the way it was when they were
young. Psychological reassurances of their "safety." Denial
of the fact that they ARE getting on. Denial of the fact that
other, younger people MIGHT be interested in doing this ham
radio hobby thing. Oh, some of them whip up some adrenaline
and do lip-service to old, trite phrases of "helping youngsters"
and all that but the MUST keep THEIR playground in their order.
NO changes allowed. Most don't help, don't bother to learn how
to help.

Why would a young person of today WANT to study morse code just
to communicate on HF? Other than being in a "ham family?" The
Internet opened to the public 14 years ago and most of the world
is connected to the net. A shrink wrap CB transceiver is available
over the counter for less than $100, complete with antenna and
microphone. A pair of FRS hand-helds costs only $50 maximum and
permits 5 mile two-way talking with isolation via digital mode.
A cell phone with a built-in camera costs less than $100 and can
communicate anywhere within range of a cell site...to the rest
of the telephonic world. One in five Americans have cell phone
subscriptions. Need to send documents across country fast? Go
to chain drugstores and use their FAX machines. All sorts of
quick communications possibilities for all today. COMPETITION
OF INTEREST. Competition of quality and dependability. And all
that hasn't touched on the OTHER advantages the younger folk have
today, things that are entertaining, interesting, mind-holding.

In truth, some young folks LIKE certain old things. That's been
true in every generation. The best-ever stagecoaches are built
today...in either California or Arizona (depending on your guild
location)...for movie and TV use. Horseback riding is for personal
pleasure today. It isn't a requirement to survive as it once was.
When we want to send a telegram today, it is done by data modes
probably through fiber-optic lines, transmission at relatively
unlimited speed, securely and without error. No one has to go to
the old train office and have some manual telegrapher translate
it and send it at 10 to 20 words per minute. That was for times
older than a century ago.

Today's ham can purchase a top-of-the-line HF transceiver, fancy
antenna and tower, peripheral gizmos up the gazoo, all for less
than $5000. They get rock-solid frequency stability and read-out
of same down to 10 Hz increments...Digital Signal Processing,
"VFO 'split'" with frequency memories, sharp crystal filters to
reduce QRM and QRN to a minimum...even operate it through a PC!
None of that was available in a single package a half century ago.
But, the olde-fahrts can sit back and dictate all MUST test for
the 161-year-old "technology" skill of morse code on that HF.
Incredible dichotomy. Incredible hypocrisy.

Actuarial tables will manifest themselves. The mighty macho
morsemen WILL have their morse keys pried out of their cold,
dead fingers. Your prediction will come to pass. Perhaps
much sooner than they expected. RIP.

Bip Bip

.... no, I think Haynie has it right, read the whole article... code is
no longer of any importance and the ancient amateurs could not even pass
the test given today--READ THE ARTICLE!

John
"Dave Heil" wrote in message
k.net...
John Smith wrote:
Len:

A direct quote from Jim Haynie, "The ARRL president asserted that
many Amateur Extra class licensees couldn't pass today's Element 4
examination if they had to..."
Complete article at:
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/05/22/1/?nc=1

Haynie's mistake is in assuming that because he might have trouble
passing it, many others would also have difficulty.

Dave K8MN

wrote:

The mighty macho morsemen cannot conceive of that. They are
immortal. They RULE. [they've said as much...]

Er...actually, you've said as much.

However, "energy and enthusiasm" is a function of both individual
genes and mental outlook. "Enthusiasm" in half-century-old state-
of-the-art techiques and practices should be consigned to niche
nostalgia places, not kept as federal regulations.

Most hams I've encountered aren't locked to old technology. They're
using the latest equipment available to them. They are not, however,
obliged to discard any technology simply because it isn't the newest and
latest.

Many of the stratification crowd seem to hang onto their
"enthusiasm" of their young days as if it were a lifeline to
some imagined fountain of youth promising that they will
remain younger than springtime by holding to old paradigms.

You haven't yet explained what constitutes "the stratification crowd".
Most hams I've encountered are enthusiastic about amateur radio. They
enjoy it immensely. I don't expect you to understand.

[Rodgers and Hammerstein could do a great musical opera on
that if Rodgers wasn't a silent (piano) key and Oscar wasn't
a silent pen...but it wouldn't play in Newington] [well,
maybe a version of "Carousel" since these olde-fahrts keep
going around and around and around...]

You seem to be the oldest fart here. Are you going around and around?

My own viewpoint is different.

I'll say.

By virtue of being born when
I was, my lifetime has seen the comming of the solid-state
era and the definite decay of vacuum tube technology...

What makes that special? Many of us are in the same boat, old timer.

...that
bringing a virtual explosion of different applications, new
and exciting SOCs (Systems On a Chip)...plus a whole new set
of passive and semi-active components and ways to hold them all
together. Technology-wise that is truly WONDERFUL and
MARVELOUS.

A very Andersonesque, masterful statement of the obvious...

We all have the capability of high-speed data and
imagery communications internationally, 24/7...

No, we don't all have that.

...no worries about
the condition of the ionosphere...

....unless we're trying to use HF radio.

all for less than $2000 in
today's dollars to get a "mainframe" computer on a desk and
a year's subscription to an ISP.

Really? You have a "mainframe" computer on your desk?
The only thing close to a "mainframe" computer that I've used is the
Wang VS and it was a "mini". I'd have had to have had a pretty big desk
for it.

Buy-sell-trade, do personal
banking, keep family in touch at all times etc., etc., etc.
My personal enthusiasm on the technology just grows and grows
from keeping in touch with the new developments and seeing
the products (some delivered to my door after electronic
ordering). I'm not going to see the end of even if the
mortal world sees my end. That's the way of humans being.

Yep, long bows, crossbows, gunpowder--there's simply no end to it.

Others, the stratification crowd, the staunch defenders of the
status quo, demand a HALT to progress, NO CHANGE.

That would seem to be a pretty large fib on your part.

Keep all
nice and tidy and belonging just the way it was when they were
young. Psychological reassurances of their "safety." Denial
of the fact that they ARE getting on. Denial of the fact that
other, younger people MIGHT be interested in doing this ham
radio hobby thing. Oh, some of them whip up some adrenaline
and do lip-service to old, trite phrases of "helping youngsters"
and all that but the MUST keep THEIR playground in their order.
NO changes allowed.


Most don't help, don't bother to learn how to help.

Then again, you'd have absolutely no way of knowing it that is the case.

Why would a young person of today WANT to study morse code just
to communicate on HF?

Uhhhh....to communicate with others who are using the mode or to learn
something different than his peers or maybe, just because it is a
qualification for obtaining an HF amateur radio license.

Other than being in a "ham family?"

Other than being in a ham family, what?

The
Internet opened to the public 14 years ago and most of the world
is connected to the net.

No, most of the world is assuredly not connect to the internet.

A shrink wrap CB transceiver is available
over the counter for less than $100, complete with antenna and
microphone. A pair of FRS hand-helds costs only $50 maximum and
permits 5 mile two-way talking with isolation via digital mode.

What's your point, Leonard? Do you own stock in Cobra?

A cell phone with a built-in camera costs less than $100 and can
communicate anywhere within range of a cell site...to the rest
of the telephonic world.

Neat. Even if I don't have one, I have a telephone. With it, I can
also communicate to the rest of the "telephonic world".

One in five Americans have cell phone
subscriptions.

One in five American hams belong to the ARRL.

Need to send documents across country fast? Go
to chain drugstores and use their FAX machines.

Why would I need to do that? I'd just use my desktop "mainframe"
computer and FAX with it.

All sorts of
quick communications possibilities for all today.

Yeah?

COMPETITION OF INTEREST.

COMPETITION OF INTEREST, what?

Competition of quality and dependability.

What about them?

And all
that hasn't touched on the OTHER advantages the younger folk have
today, things that are entertaining, interesting, mind-holding.

Yeah--hip hop, computer porn, drugs, piercing body parts and video
gaming come to mind.



In truth, some young folks LIKE certain old things.

Then somewhere, there is a young person who must like you.


Today's ham can purchase a top-of-the-line HF transceiver, fancy
antenna and tower, peripheral gizmos up the gazoo, all for less
than $5000.

Where can I get all of that stuff for less than five grand, Leonard?

They get rock-solid frequency stability and read-out
of same down to 10 Hz increments...Digital Signal Processing,
"VFO 'split'" with frequency memories, sharp crystal filters to
reduce QRM and QRN to a minimum...even operate it through a PC!
None of that was available in a single package a half century ago.

None of that was available a quarter-century ago.

But, the olde-fahrts can sit back and dictate all MUST test for
the 161-year-old "technology" skill of morse code on that HF.

Some of 'em are still using human speech to communicate. That dates
back thousands and thousands of years.

Incredible dichotomy. Incredible hypocrisy.

Those don't seem to qualify as sentences.

Actuarial tables will manifest themselves. The mighty macho
morsemen WILL have their morse keys pried out of their cold,
dead fingers.

But actuarial tables being what they are, they'd indicate that this will
be one of those things you aren't likely to be around to see. In fact,
you'll likely miss out on amateur radio altogether.

Dave K8MN

Let me see if I have all of your "facts" straight:

1) there is no problem
2) old farts are cutting edge techs
3) one look will tell you how "progressive" amateur radio is
4) everything just looks wrong, it is really right
5) code is important
6) ARRL is wrong
7) Haynie is wrong
8) FCC is wrong

.... yeah, right!

John
"Dave Heil" wrote in message
ink.net...
wrote:

The mighty macho morsemen cannot conceive of that. They are
immortal. They RULE. [they've said as much...]

Er...actually, you've said as much.

However, "energy and enthusiasm" is a function of both individual
genes and mental outlook. "Enthusiasm" in half-century-old state-
of-the-art techiques and practices should be consigned to niche
nostalgia places, not kept as federal regulations.

Most hams I've encountered aren't locked to old technology. They're
using the latest equipment available to them. They are not, however,
obliged to discard any technology simply because it isn't the newest
and latest.

Many of the stratification crowd seem to hang onto their
"enthusiasm" of their young days as if it were a lifeline to
some imagined fountain of youth promising that they will
remain younger than springtime by holding to old paradigms.

You haven't yet explained what constitutes "the stratification crowd".
Most hams I've encountered are enthusiastic about amateur radio. They
enjoy it immensely. I don't expect you to understand.

[Rodgers and Hammerstein could do a great musical opera on
that if Rodgers wasn't a silent (piano) key and Oscar wasn't
a silent pen...but it wouldn't play in Newington] [well,
maybe a version of "Carousel" since these olde-fahrts keep
going around and around and around...]

You seem to be the oldest fart here. Are you going around and around?

My own viewpoint is different.

I'll say.

By virtue of being born when
I was, my lifetime has seen the comming of the solid-state
era and the definite decay of vacuum tube technology...

What makes that special? Many of us are in the same boat, old timer.

...that
bringing a virtual explosion of different applications, new
and exciting SOCs (Systems On a Chip)...plus a whole new set
of passive and semi-active components and ways to hold them all
together. Technology-wise that is truly WONDERFUL and
MARVELOUS.

A very Andersonesque, masterful statement of the obvious...

We all have the capability of high-speed data and
imagery communications internationally, 24/7...

No, we don't all have that.

...no worries about
the condition of the ionosphere...

...unless we're trying to use HF radio.

all for less than $2000 in
today's dollars to get a "mainframe" computer on a desk and
a year's subscription to an ISP.

Really? You have a "mainframe" computer on your desk?
The only thing close to a "mainframe" computer that I've used is the
Wang VS and it was a "mini". I'd have had to have had a pretty big
desk for it.

Buy-sell-trade, do personal
banking, keep family in touch at all times etc., etc., etc.
My personal enthusiasm on the technology just grows and grows
from keeping in touch with the new developments and seeing
the products (some delivered to my door after electronic
ordering). I'm not going to see the end of even if the
mortal world sees my end. That's the way of humans being.

Yep, long bows, crossbows, gunpowder--there's simply no end to it.

Others, the stratification crowd, the staunch defenders of the
status quo, demand a HALT to progress, NO CHANGE.

That would seem to be a pretty large fib on your part.

Keep all
nice and tidy and belonging just the way it was when they were
young. Psychological reassurances of their "safety." Denial
of the fact that they ARE getting on. Denial of the fact that
other, younger people MIGHT be interested in doing this ham
radio hobby thing. Oh, some of them whip up some adrenaline
and do lip-service to old, trite phrases of "helping youngsters"
and all that but the MUST keep THEIR playground in their order.
NO changes allowed.


Most don't help, don't bother to learn how to help.

Then again, you'd have absolutely no way of knowing it that is the
case.

Why would a young person of today WANT to study morse code just
to communicate on HF?

Uhhhh....to communicate with others who are using the mode or to learn
something different than his peers or maybe, just because it is a
qualification for obtaining an HF amateur radio license.

Other than being in a "ham family?"

Other than being in a ham family, what?

The
Internet opened to the public 14 years ago and most of the world
is connected to the net.

No, most of the world is assuredly not connect to the internet.

A shrink wrap CB transceiver is available
over the counter for less than $100, complete with antenna and
microphone. A pair of FRS hand-helds costs only $50 maximum and
permits 5 mile two-way talking with isolation via digital mode.

What's your point, Leonard? Do you own stock in Cobra?

A cell phone with a built-in camera costs less than $100 and can
communicate anywhere within range of a cell site...to the rest
of the telephonic world.

Neat. Even if I don't have one, I have a telephone. With it, I can
also communicate to the rest of the "telephonic world".

One in five Americans have cell phone
subscriptions.

One in five American hams belong to the ARRL.

Need to send documents across country fast? Go
to chain drugstores and use their FAX machines.

Why would I need to do that? I'd just use my desktop "mainframe"
computer and FAX with it.

All sorts of
quick communications possibilities for all today.

Yeah?

COMPETITION OF INTEREST.

COMPETITION OF INTEREST, what?

Competition of quality and dependability.

What about them?

And all
that hasn't touched on the OTHER advantages the younger folk have
today, things that are entertaining, interesting, mind-holding.

Yeah--hip hop, computer porn, drugs, piercing body parts and video
gaming come to mind.



In truth, some young folks LIKE certain old things.

Then somewhere, there is a young person who must like you.


Today's ham can purchase a top-of-the-line HF transceiver, fancy
antenna and tower, peripheral gizmos up the gazoo, all for less
than $5000.

Where can I get all of that stuff for less than five grand, Leonard?

They get rock-solid frequency stability and read-out
of same down to 10 Hz increments...Digital Signal Processing,
"VFO 'split'" with frequency memories, sharp crystal filters to
reduce QRM and QRN to a minimum...even operate it through a PC!
None of that was available in a single package a half century ago.

None of that was available a quarter-century ago.

But, the olde-fahrts can sit back and dictate all MUST test for
the 161-year-old "technology" skill of morse code on that HF.

Some of 'em are still using human speech to communicate. That dates
back thousands and thousands of years.

Incredible dichotomy. Incredible hypocrisy.

Those don't seem to qualify as sentences.

Actuarial tables will manifest themselves. The mighty macho
morsemen WILL have their morse keys pried out of their cold,
dead fingers.

But actuarial tables being what they are, they'd indicate that this
will be one of those things you aren't likely to be around to see. In
fact, you'll likely miss out on amateur radio altogether.

Dave K8MN

John Smith wrote:

A direct quote from Jim Haynie, "The ARRL president asserted
that many
Amateur Extra class licensees couldn't pass today's Element 4
examination if they had to..."

Well, some of them couldn't, anyway.

The same is true of some hams in every license class, and
has been true for some hams at least as long as I've been aware of ham
radio.

But I'm not one of those that W5JBP was speaking about.

Since I got my ham license 37-1/2 years ago (October 1967, age
13), I've always been able to pass the tests for the license
I hold. Since 1970 (age 16), that's been the Extra.

Every couple of months I do an online practice test just to
make sure.

John Smith wrote:
... no, I think Haynie has it right, read the whole article... code is
no longer of any importance

Bull, that's NOT what he said.

and the ancient amateurs could not even pass
the test given today--

So? What's the big deal? If I had to be retested I'd simply memorize
the question pools like everybody else does these days. The EE-types
wouldn't even do that, they's just sit down and pass it. Like Haynie
said "passing a ham exam does not make you an engineer." Which is to
say that passing the writtens isn't much more than a traditional rite
of passage. Always have been for that matter.

READ THE ARTICLE!

I read the article. Now you tune around the bottom ends of the bands
for a reality check.

w3rv

Haynie said:

1) "It's not that Amateur Radio is dumbed down," he said. "People like
me have failed to keep up, and if you look in your heart, you're going
to say the same thing."

2) "...if you want people to come out of that examination room in here
to be able to design circuits--you're in the wrong hobby."

3) "I said, if we come down on the side of code, we're going to make
the no-code people mad, and if we come down on the side of the no-code,
we're going to make the code people mad..."

4) "...he predicted that the Commission will never reinstate higher code
speed requirements as some have requested."

5) "The FCC is not going to go back to 13 and 20 words per minute, and
you can take that to the bank," he predicted. "It's not going to
happen." The Commission went with the single 5 WPM requirement because
it was "sick and tired" of dealing with medical waivers, he said.

Although he has become a pretty smart "politician" and "diplomat"--it is
obvious code is given very little if any importance. Now you can argue
his words anyway you like--but you can't find one word of his which
places ANY importance on it... He HAS said old amateurs have lost sense
of reality, that is right there in no. 1) ... argue that anyway you
like--into looking like a fool...

John
wrote in message
oups.com...
John Smith wrote:
... no, I think Haynie has it right, read the whole article... code
is
no longer of any importance

Bull, that's NOT what he said.

and the ancient amateurs could not even pass
the test given today--

So? What's the big deal? If I had to be retested I'd simply memorize
the question pools like everybody else does these days. The EE-types
wouldn't even do that, they's just sit down and pass it. Like Haynie
said "passing a ham exam does not make you an engineer." Which is to
say that passing the writtens isn't much more than a traditional rite
of passage. Always have been for that matter.

READ THE ARTICLE!

I read the article. Now you tune around the bottom ends of the bands
for a reality check.

w3rv

John Smith wrote:
Haynie mentioned you in no 1), someone who won't admit they are killing
the hobby... you aren't anything but a self-centered jerk with a big ego
and self-opinion,

And you aren't anything but a know-nothing cber who couldn't pass the
exam for a ham license if your miserable life depended upon it.

From: "John Smith" on Wed 8 Jun 2005 18:03

Let me see if I have all of your "facts" straight:

1) there is no problem
2) old farts are cutting edge techs
3) one look will tell you how "progressive" amateur radio is
4) everything just looks wrong, it is really right
5) code is important
6) ARRL is wrong
7) Haynie is wrong
8) FCC is wrong

... yeah, right!

John
"Dave Heil" wrote in message
link.net...

John, you forgot one:

9) Leonard is always wrong :-)

From: "K4YZ" on Jun 8, 5:14 am


I didn't get any farther than this to see what yet anotehr moronic
anti-Amateur Radio rant this was.

Yet another validation of my claim that Leonard H. Anderson is a
chronic, pathological liar.



...the sun sets on the Tomb of the Unknown Solder as a solitary
figure in a patch-adorned flight suit slowly paces out his lonely
path of anger, J-38 in one hand, bayonetted USMC soldering iron
in the other. Pre-recorded marine marches softly fill the air,
interspersed with dits and dahs of a few PCTA morsebirds not yet
extinct. The Tomb of the Unknown Solder is a lonely place, deep
in the valley of neuroses, anger, and frustration. The single
sentinel counts cadennce to himself, muttering "flux you, flux
you" between the slow steps. His fists are clenched, eager to do
bottle but only sipping a cup of unkindness. It is sad but the
sentinel at the Tomb of the Unknown Solder keeps going. He does
not know why and that is the tragedy. The sun slowly sets on the
Tomb of the Unknown Solder leaving only the red light of fire in
the eyes of the muttering sentinel. Those glow in the dark like
LED pilot lights. Hatred lives on in his twilight of despair.

Temper fry.