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Old September 14th 05, 10:41 PM
 
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an_old_friend wrote:


Why? The notion of formal marriage is a fairly recent religious invention,
perhaps less than 5,000 years old. Many historic civilizations got along just
fine without it.


as do some modern ones like in Iceland, and other Nordic countries
nobody thinks much about young girls having babies before they get
married (and not always by the fellow they marry either)


If they marry at all, 60% of children in Iceland are born outside of
marriage.
That does not mean that they are the products of broken homes or broken
families (or teenage mothers), what it means is that Icelandic couples
tend to do things in the order: meet and then have kids while at the
same time finishing their education, buying their first home (and a
couple of cars) and then later they probably marry. If they get around
to it, I know a few couples that have been together for years (more
than 20 in a couple of cases), had a bunch of kids and generally lived
their life, without ever marrying.

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Old September 15th 05, 11:58 AM
 
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K=D8HB wrote:
"Michael Coslo" wrote


Couple bonding is one of the best aspects of religion.


"Couple bonding" isn't an aspect of religion. It's an aspect of human na=

ture
(some might even say of animal nature).


But I have big problems with unmarried couples having children.


Why? The notion of formal marriage is a fairly recent religious inventio=

n,
perhaps less than 5,000 years old. Many historic civilizations got along=

just
fine without it.


If so successful, where are those civilations today?

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Old September 15th 05, 04:19 PM
KØHB
 
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wrote



If so successful, where are those civilations today?


A lot of them were over-run by married Europeans with syphilis.

beep beep
de Hans, K0HB





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Old September 15th 05, 09:56 PM
 
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Michael Coslo wrote:
wrote:

an_old_friend wrote:



Why? The notion of formal marriage is a fairly recent religious invention,
perhaps less than 5,000 years old. Many historic civilizations got along just
fine without it.

as do some modern ones like in Iceland, and other Nordic countries
nobody thinks much about young girls having babies before they get
married (and not always by the fellow they marry either)



If they marry at all, 60% of children in Iceland are born outside of
marriage.
That does not mean that they are the products of broken homes or broken
families (or teenage mothers), what it means is that Icelandic couples
tend to do things in the order: meet and then have kids while at the
same time finishing their education, buying their first home (and a
couple of cars) and then later they probably marry. If they get around
to it, I know a few couples that have been together for years (more
than 20 in a couple of cases), had a bunch of kids and generally lived
their life, without ever marrying.



Then there is something else in the culture keeping them together. Do
the ladies raise their children without the benefit of a male?


The single mothers obviously do so but the majority of children are
raised by both parents and the participation of the father in the
upbringing is considerable, most parents are both working a full day
away from the home from the time the child is 1 or 2 years old (the
mother gets 6 months paid leave, the dad gets 3 months and they get an
extra 3 months period of paid leave that either of them can take) and
both parents usually participate in the household chores after work.

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Old September 16th 05, 12:20 AM
 
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an_old_friend wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote:
wrote:

an_old_friend wrote:



Why? The notion of formal marriage is a fairly recent religious invention,
perhaps less than 5,000 years old. Many historic civilizations got along just
fine without it.

as do some modern ones like in Iceland, and other Nordic countries
nobody thinks much about young girls having babies before they get
married (and not always by the fellow they marry either)


If they marry at all, 60% of children in Iceland are born outside of
marriage.
That does not mean that they are the products of broken homes or broken
families (or teenage mothers), what it means is that Icelandic couples
tend to do things in the order: meet and then have kids while at the
same time finishing their education, buying their first home (and a
couple of cars) and then later they probably marry. If they get around
to it, I know a few couples that have been together for years (more
than 20 in a couple of cases), had a bunch of kids and generally lived
their life, without ever marrying.



Then there is something else in the culture keeping them together. Do
the ladies raise their children without the benefit of a male?


not without a male but often without the father of the baby or the
presence of a male of the same generation as the father


The women often raise the children by themselves or with the help of a
male that is not the father of the child but the children are raised by
both parents in a majority of cases.

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Old September 16th 05, 02:19 AM
 
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Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:
K4YZ wrote:
wrote:
K4YZ wrote:

nobodys_old_friend wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

wrote:
Bingo! It is no exaggeration to note that the
biggest atheists here in
the US are almost all filled to the gills
with "Christian Values".



?? I'm not sure what you mean, Mike.


Even though a person may proclaim to be an
atheist, that person was
raised in a society that is pretty much Christian,
and overwhelmingly
Judeo-Christian.


The atheist person is going to have most of those same
values as the rest of the society.


Maybe. After all, "Christian" societies gave us folks
like Joe Stalin and that German guy with the Charlie Chaplin
mustache.

We all have to have some sort of values, save
for the rare and sick few.


But all value systems are not created equal.


Of course not. Now compare the other value systems
to ours, and you see
why even atheists have Christian values even if they were
raised in a Christian country


Way too simplified.

"Christians" can't even agree on what "Christian values" are.
For example, look at how long some "Catholics" and "Protestants"
have been going at each other, in places like Northern Ireland.

Is that a "Christian value"?

How about equal rights for people of different genders, races, creeds,
ethnicities?

Heck, go back just 150 years and there were "Christians" arguing that
it was His will that some people *own* other people....

And there is nothing wrong with most of those values. The ten
commandments? A lot of that is good stuff.


Sure - but a lot of that is also not necessarily only
derived from religion.


The religions were some of original social order came from.

Sure - but that doesn't mean we have to do things the way
they were done thousands of years ago.

Democracy came from the Greeks - who were pagans. In fact most of what
we consider "western civilization" (the concept of a republic, the dome
and the arch, even the alphabet you read these words with) came from
Romans, who were pagans too. Mostly, anyway. But we don't honor Zeus
anymore.

Most of what is in the Ten Commandments can be easily
derived from a pair of questions:

"What would a society be like if everyone obeyed that rule?"

"What would a society be like if everyone disobeyed that
rule?"

For example, take stealing. A society composed solely of
thieves
(people who live by theft rather than production) cannot
exist, because
pretty soon there will be nothing left to steal. But a
society composed
of people who don't steal can prosper, because
production is the basis of wealth. Therefore stealing is
intrinsically "wrong" because it's not productive.

We better not stand too hard
on that "covet thy neighbors goods stuff, tho'.


Depends how you define "covet".


Keeping up with the Joneses kind of works that way for me.

If my neighbor has a new car, and I want one too, and I work
hard and save up to buy one, that's a good thing!


That is keeping up with the Joneses


And it's a good thing! That's not "coveting" to me.

But if my neighbor has a new car, and I want one too, and I
hate
him for it, try to steal or damage it, that's a bad thing!


A redundant commandment?


No.

And "not having any
other God before me" kind of makes it a problem to post it in
the courthouse.


Why should a courthouse, which is paid for by taxes, be a
place
where the specific words of one religion are publicized to the
exclusion of others?


We agree.


When they let me post quotes from the Book of Bokonon next to
the Ten Commandments....

I see no problem with private citizens posting their
Commandments
on public property *if* other private citizens have the same right.


I want a turtle holding up the world statue! Turtles all the way down!


Flying Spaghetti Monster. (look it up)

We are what we are, and our heritage is where it comes from.


But not just our heritage. We've gotten beyond a heritage
of some people owning other people as property. We've gotten
beyond a heritage where people of one gender can vote and
people of the other gender cannot. Etc.


There are some for whom this new state of being is a problem.

Are they "Christians"?

I suppose that it is a great comfort to many
people to "know" just how
things are supposed to be, and to have great faith
in that "knowing".



Of course.


But the faithful have had a long and storied
history of depriving others
of what they believe is their own faith's fundamental rights.



Every freedom carries with it at least one responsibility.
Freedom of religion can only extend to those religions that
can tolerate each other. (For example, a religion that taught
that unbelievers must be murdered cannot claim that such
behavior is protected by religious freedom. That case is
obvious but many similar cases aren't.)


Do you think that Fundies actually want freedom? Certainly for
themselves, but I wonder about others.....


Sometimes the question is more important than the answer...

73 de Jim, N2EY

  #450   Report Post  
Old September 16th 05, 11:53 AM
 
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K=D8HB wrote:
wrote

If so successful, where are those civilations today?


A lot of them were over-run by married Europeans with syphilis.

beep beep
de Hans, K0HB


Those Vikings were an impressive lot.

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