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  #451   Report Post  
Old September 16th 05, 12:06 PM
 
Posts: n/a
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K=D8HB wrote:

A lot of them were over-run by married Europeans with syphilis.



The Great Nations of Europe
Had gathered on the shore
They'd conquered what was behind them
And now they wanted more
So they looked to the mighty ocean
And took to the western sea
The great nations of Europe in the sixteenth century

Hide your wives and daughters
Hide the groceries too
Great nations of Europe coming through

The Grand Canary Islands
First land to which they came
They slaughtered all the canaries there
Which gave the land its name
There were natives there called Guanches
Guanches by the score
Bullets, disease, the Portugese, and they weren't there anymore

Now they're gone, they're gone, they're really gone
You've never seen anyone so gone
They're a picture in a museum
Some lines written in a book
But you won't find a live one no matter where you look

Hide your wives and daughters
Hide the groceries too
Great nations of Europe coming through

Columbus sailed for India
Found Salvador instead
He shook hands with some Indians and soon they all were dead
They got TB and typhoid and athlete's foot
Diptheria and the flu
'Scuse me - Great nations coming through!

Balboa found the Pacific
And on the trail one day
He met some friendly Indians
Whom he was told were gay
So he had them torn apart by dogs on religious grounds they say
The great nations of Europe were quite holy in their way

Now they're gone, they're gone, they're really gone
You've never seen anyone so gone
Some bones hidden in a canyon
Some paintings in a cave
There's no use trying to save them
There's nothing left to save

Hide your wives and daughters
Hide your sons as well
With the great nations of Europe you never can tell

From where you and I are standing

At the dawn of a century
Europes have sprung up everyone as even I can see
But there on the horizon as a possiblity
Some bug from out of Africa might come for you and me
Destroying everything in its path
From sea to shining sea

Like the great nations of Europe
In the sixteenth century

"Great Nations of Europe" by Randy Newman

73 de Jim, N2EY


  #452   Report Post  
Old September 16th 05, 06:01 PM
Michael Coslo
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

K4YZ wrote:

wrote:

K4YZ wrote:


nobodys_old_friend wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote:


wrote:

Bingo! It is no exaggeration to note that the
biggest atheists here in
the US are almost all filled to the gills
with "Christian Values".


?? I'm not sure what you mean, Mike.


Even though a person may proclaim to be an
atheist, that person was
raised in a society that is pretty much Christian,
and overwhelmingly
Judeo-Christian.



The atheist person is going to have most of those same
values as the rest of the society.



Maybe. After all, "Christian" societies gave us folks
like Joe Stalin and that German guy with the Charlie Chaplin
mustache.


They were definitely aberrations.




We all have to have some sort of values, save
for the rare and sick few.



But all value systems are not created equal.



Of course not. Now compare the other value systems
to ours, and you see
why even atheists have Christian values even if they were
raised in a Christian country



Way too simplified.


Just simple enough! I'm not trying to say that we all act like one
another. There is variability among any social group. But our values are
based on our society and it's influences. And in American society as a
whole, a large part of it is Christian influence. I don't hold with the
concept of Sabbath days, but I sure like my Saturday and Sunday off. I
had a few jobs in the deep dark past that required me to work weekends,
and take my days off in the middle of the week. Didn't seem right! 8^)


"Christians" can't even agree on what "Christian values" are.


Never have, never will. As long as man creates God in his own image......

For example, look at how long some "Catholics" and "Protestants"
have been going at each other, in places like Northern Ireland.

Is that a "Christian value"?


Yes, IMO.

How about equal rights for people of different genders, races, creeds,
ethnicities?

Heck, go back just 150 years and there were "Christians" arguing that
it was His will that some people *own* other people....


Whatever you want to do, there can be a religious excuse for it.

And there is nothing wrong with most of those values. The ten
commandments? A lot of that is good stuff.

Sure - but a lot of that is also not necessarily only
derived from religion.


The religions were some of original social order came from.


Sure - but that doesn't mean we have to do things the way
they were done thousands of years ago.


I don't follow, Jim. I don't think I ever said that we were supposed to
do that.


Democracy came from the Greeks - who were pagans. In fact most of what
we consider "western civilization" (the concept of a republic, the dome
and the arch, even the alphabet you read these words with) came from
Romans, who were pagans too. Mostly, anyway. But we don't honor Zeus
anymore.


I'm busy with the Turtles myself.....

Yes, the Greeks came up with Democracy. And I doubt any religion based
society would *ever* engage in democracy. Religions *know* how things
are supposed to be, and why on earth would they allow any deviation. But
that isn't my point.


Most of what is in the Ten Commandments can be easily
derived from a pair of questions:

"What would a society be like if everyone obeyed that rule?"

"What would a society be like if everyone disobeyed that
rule?"

For example, take stealing. A society composed solely of
thieves
(people who live by theft rather than production) cannot
exist, because
pretty soon there will be nothing left to steal. But a
society composed
of people who don't steal can prosper, because
production is the basis of wealth. Therefore stealing is
intrinsically "wrong" because it's not productive.


We better not stand too hard
on that "covet thy neighbors goods stuff, tho'.



Depends how you define "covet".


Keeping up with the Joneses kind of works that way for me.


If my neighbor has a new car, and I want one too, and I work
hard and save up to buy one, that's a good thing!


That is keeping up with the Joneses



And it's a good thing! That's not "coveting" to me.



And here we delve into a theological discussion!!!


But if my neighbor has a new car, and I want one too, and I
hate
him for it, try to steal or damage it, that's a bad thing!


A redundant commandment?



No.


And "not having any
other God before me" kind of makes it a problem to post it in
the courthouse.




Why should a courthouse, which is paid for by taxes, be a
place
where the specific words of one religion are publicized to the
exclusion of others?


We agree.



When they let me post quotes from the Book of Bokonon next to
the Ten Commandments....


I see no problem with private citizens posting their
Commandments
on public property *if* other private citizens have the same right.


I want a turtle holding up the world statue! Turtles all the way down!



Flying Spaghetti Monster. (look it up)


We are what we are, and our heritage is where it comes from.



But not just our heritage. We've gotten beyond a heritage
of some people owning other people as property. We've gotten
beyond a heritage where people of one gender can vote and
people of the other gender cannot. Etc.


There are some for whom this new state of being is a problem.


Are they "Christians"?


They call themselves that. And I guess it is like "art", you can call
yourself whatever you can get away with.

I suppose that it is a great comfort to many
people to "know" just how
things are supposed to be, and to have great faith
in that "knowing".


Of course.



But the faithful have had a long and storied
history of depriving others
of what they believe is their own faith's fundamental rights.


Every freedom carries with it at least one responsibility.
Freedom of religion can only extend to those religions that
can tolerate each other. (For example, a religion that taught
that unbelievers must be murdered cannot claim that such
behavior is protected by religious freedom. That case is
obvious but many similar cases aren't.)


Do you think that Fundies actually want freedom? Certainly for
themselves, but I wonder about others.....



Sometimes the question is more important than the answer...


- mike KB3EIA -

  #453   Report Post  
Old September 17th 05, 11:56 AM
[email protected]
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Michael Coslo wrote:
wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

K4YZ wrote:

wrote:

K4YZ wrote:


nobodys_old_friend wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote:


wrote:

Bingo! It is no exaggeration to note that the
biggest atheists here in
the US are almost all filled to the gills
with "Christian Values".


?? I'm not sure what you mean, Mike.

Even though a person may proclaim to be an
atheist, that person was
raised in a society that is pretty much Christian,
and overwhelmingly
Judeo-Christian.



The atheist person is going to have most of those same
values as the rest of the society.



Maybe. After all, "Christian" societies gave us folks
like Joe Stalin and that German guy with the Charlie Chaplin
mustache.


They were definitely aberrations.


Were they? They not only existed, but were able to get large numbers of
nominal "Christians" to follow and obey them.

The crusades. The inquisitions. Burning witches. "Christians"
persecuting other "Christians", non-Christians, the Klan, Jonestown,
Waco, etc.

He really would never stop throwing up.

We all have to have some sort of values, save
for the rare and sick few.


But all value systems are not created equal.


Of course not. Now compare the other value systems
to ours, and you see
why even atheists have Christian values even if they were
raised in a Christian country


Way too simplified.


Just simple enough!


Too simple. The values you esteem are not limited to Christians.

I'm not trying to say that we all act like one
another. There is variability among any social group. But our
values are
based on our society and it's influences.


Not just our society. And look at the wide variability of those
"values". The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King was a Christian, trying to
promote Christian values. He was killed by a Christian with different
Christian values.

And in American society as a
whole, a large part of it is Christian influence. I don't hold with the
concept of Sabbath days, but I sure like my Saturday and Sunday off. I
had a few jobs in the deep dark past that required me to work
weekends,
and take my days off in the middle of the week. Didn't seem
right! 8^)


More of a circadian rhythm thing.

"Christians" can't even agree on what "Christian values" are.


Never have, never will. As long as man creates God in his own
image......

For example, look at how long some "Catholics"
and "Protestants"
have been going at each other, in places like Northern
Ireland.

Is that a "Christian value"?


Yes, IMO.


Would He agree?

How about equal rights for people of different genders,
races, creeds, ethnicities?

Heck, go back just 150 years and there were "Christians"
arguing that
it was His will that some people *own* other people....


Whatever you want to do, there can be a religious excuse for it.


And there is nothing wrong with most of those values. The ten
commandments? A lot of that is good stuff.

Sure - but a lot of that is also not necessarily only
derived from religion.

The religions were some of original social order came from.


Sure - but that doesn't mean we have to do things the way
they were done thousands of years ago.


I don't follow, Jim. I don't think I ever said that we
were supposed to do that.


There are plenty of folks who think that "old time religion" is the
only way...

Democracy came from the Greeks - who were pagans. In fact most of what
we consider "western civilization" (the concept of a republic, the dome
and the arch, even the alphabet you read these words with) came from
Romans, who were pagans too. Mostly, anyway. But we don't honor Zeus
anymore.


I'm busy with the Turtles myself.....


Yes, the Greeks came up with Democracy. And I doubt any
religion based
society would *ever* engage in democracy.


I know of a couple religious organizations that are based on
democracy. At least one operates by consensus.

Religions *know* how things
are supposed to be, and why on earth would they allow any
deviation.


*Some* religions. Others allow for change, growth, the evolution of
spiritual thought and action.

But that isn't my point.


Most of what is in the Ten Commandments can be easily
derived from a pair of questions:

"What would a society be like if everyone obeyed that rule?"

"What would a society be like if everyone disobeyed that
rule?"

For example, take stealing. A society composed solely of
thieves
(people who live by theft rather than production) cannot
exist, because
pretty soon there will be nothing left to steal. But a
society composed
of people who don't steal can prosper, because
production is the basis of wealth. Therefore stealing is
intrinsically "wrong" because it's not productive.


We better not stand too hard
on that "covet thy neighbors goods stuff, tho'.



Depends how you define "covet".

Keeping up with the Joneses kind of works that way for me.


If my neighbor has a new car, and I want one too, and I work
hard and save up to buy one, that's a good thing!

That is keeping up with the Joneses



And it's a good thing! That's not "coveting" to me.



And here we delve into a theological discussion!!!


Why not?


But if my neighbor has a new car, and I want one too, and I
hate
him for it, try to steal or damage it, that's a bad thing!

A redundant commandment?



No.


And "not having any
other God before me" kind of makes it a problem to post it in
the courthouse.




Why should a courthouse, which is paid for by taxes, be a
place
where the specific words of one religion are publicized to the
exclusion of others?

We agree.



When they let me post quotes from the Book of Bokonon next to
the Ten Commandments....


I see no problem with private citizens posting their
Commandments
on public property *if* other private citizens have the same right.

I want a turtle holding up the world statue! Turtles all the way down!



Flying Spaghetti Monster. (look it up)


We are what we are, and our heritage is where it comes from.



But not just our heritage. We've gotten beyond a heritage
of some people owning other people as property. We've gotten
beyond a heritage where people of one gender can vote and
people of the other gender cannot. Etc.

There are some for whom this new state of being is a problem.


Are they "Christians"?


They call themselves that.


And I guess it is like "art", you can call
yourself whatever you can get away with.


Calling oneself something does not make it so.

I suppose that it is a great comfort to many
people to "know" just how
things are supposed to be, and to have great faith
in that "knowing".


Of course.



But the faithful have had a long and storied
history of depriving others
of what they believe is their own faith's fundamental rights.


Every freedom carries with it at least one responsibility.
Freedom of religion can only extend to those religions that
can tolerate each other. (For example, a religion that taught
that unbelievers must be murdered cannot claim that such
behavior is protected by religious freedom. That case is
obvious but many similar cases aren't.)

Do you think that Fundies actually want freedom? Certainly for
themselves, but I wonder about others.....



Sometimes the question is more important than the answer...


73 de Jim, N2EY

  #454   Report Post  
Old September 17th 05, 06:44 PM
Mike Coslo
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote:


A whole bunch of he said, he said snippage

Bingo! It is no exaggeration to note that the
biggest atheists here in
the US are almost all filled to the gills
with "Christian Values".


?? I'm not sure what you mean, Mike.

Even though a person may proclaim to be an
atheist, that person was
raised in a society that is pretty much Christian,
and overwhelmingly
Judeo-Christian.


The atheist person is going to have most of those same
values as the rest of the society.


Maybe. After all, "Christian" societies gave us folks
like Joe Stalin and that German guy with the Charlie Chaplin
mustache.


They were definitely aberrations.


Were they? They not only existed, but were able to get large numbers of
nominal "Christians" to follow and obey them.


Sure they were. It is hard to be responsible for the death of millions,
as they both were, without being abberations.

The crusades. The inquisitions. Burning witches. "Christians"
persecuting other "Christians", non-Christians, the Klan, Jonestown,
Waco, etc.



All done "in the name of" Christianity. Evil humans doing evil and
using him as excuse for it. We are possibly on the verge again.

He really would never stop throwing up.


Yup.


We all have to have some sort of values, save
for the rare and sick few.



But all value systems are not created equal.



Of course not. Now compare the other value systems
to ours, and you see
why even atheists have Christian values even if they were
raised in a Christian country



Way too simplified.



Just simple enough!



Too simple. The values you esteem are not limited to Christians.


But if a value is shared it doesn't mean that it has to be one or the
other religions value. Certain things such as not depriving people of
their lives (disregarding the shades in between) isn't s specific
Christian value. I'm looking at an overall picture, and I think that you
are looking at the details.


I'm not trying to say that we all act like one
another. There is variability among any social group. But our
values are
based on our society and it's influences.



Not just our society. And look at the wide variability of those
"values". The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King was a Christian, trying to
promote Christian values. He was killed by a Christian with different
Christian values.


MLK, for all his faults, was promoting values that seemed more in line
with what JHC espoused. The other guy promoted some other values, we can
guess whose they might have been.


And in American society as a
whole, a large part of it is Christian influence. I don't hold with the
concept of Sabbath days, but I sure like my Saturday and Sunday off. I
had a few jobs in the deep dark past that required me to work
weekends,
and take my days off in the middle of the week. Didn't seem
right! 8^)



More of a circadian rhythm thing.


5 days of work, around 8 hours per day, and 2 days off. I slept during
the night. Don't think it was circadian.

"Christians" can't even agree on what "Christian values" are.


Never have, never will. As long as man creates God in his own
image......


For example, look at how long some "Catholics"
and "Protestants"
have been going at each other, in places like Northern
Ireland.

Is that a "Christian value"?


Yes, IMO.



Would He agree?


Of course not. People creating their God in their own image.

How about equal rights for people of different genders,
races, creeds, ethnicities?

Heck, go back just 150 years and there were "Christians"
arguing that
it was His will that some people *own* other people....



Whatever you want to do, there can be a religious excuse for it.



And there is nothing wrong with most of those values. The ten
commandments? A lot of that is good stuff.

Sure - but a lot of that is also not necessarily only
derived from religion.

The religions were some of original social order came from.


Sure - but that doesn't mean we have to do things the way
they were done thousands of years ago.


I don't follow, Jim. I don't think I ever said that we
were supposed to do that.



There are plenty of folks who think that "old time religion" is the
only way...


Democracy came from the Greeks - who were pagans. In fact most of what
we consider "western civilization" (the concept of a republic, the dome
and the arch, even the alphabet you read these words with) came from
Romans, who were pagans too. Mostly, anyway. But we don't honor Zeus
anymore.


I'm busy with the Turtles myself.....



Yes, the Greeks came up with Democracy. And I doubt any
religion based
society would *ever* engage in democracy.



I know of a couple religious organizations that are based on
democracy. At least one operates by consensus.


They are?


Religions *know* how things
are supposed to be, and why on earth would they allow any
deviation.


*Some* religions. Others allow for change, growth, the evolution of
spiritual thought and action.


Do they accept any deviation from their core values?


But that isn't my point.



Most of what is in the Ten Commandments can be easily
derived from a pair of questions:

"What would a society be like if everyone obeyed that rule?"

"What would a society be like if everyone disobeyed that
rule?"

For example, take stealing. A society composed solely of
thieves
(people who live by theft rather than production) cannot
exist, because
pretty soon there will be nothing left to steal. But a
society composed
of people who don't steal can prosper, because
production is the basis of wealth. Therefore stealing is
intrinsically "wrong" because it's not productive.



We better not stand too hard
on that "covet thy neighbors goods stuff, tho'.


Depends how you define "covet".

Keeping up with the Joneses kind of works that way for me.



If my neighbor has a new car, and I want one too, and I work
hard and save up to buy one, that's a good thing!

That is keeping up with the Joneses


And it's a good thing! That's not "coveting" to me.



And here we delve into a theological discussion!!!



Why not?


What is coveting? Is it the desire of something? If my neighbor has
something, and I decide that I want one, is that coveting it? Or is it
wanting it enough to steal it? Which is another commandment altogether.
If it is just the wanting, how is that the sin? I'm a tekkie junkie, and
want or "covet" a lot of things. Is that a sin? Does that even make
sense?

But if my neighbor has a new car, and I want one too, and I
hate
him for it, try to steal or damage it, that's a bad thing!

A redundant commandment?


No.



And "not having any
other God before me" kind of makes it a problem to post it in
the courthouse.



Why should a courthouse, which is paid for by taxes, be a
place
where the specific words of one religion are publicized to the
exclusion of others?

We agree.


When they let me post quotes from the Book of Bokonon next to
the Ten Commandments....



I see no problem with private citizens posting their
Commandments
on public property *if* other private citizens have the same right.

I want a turtle holding up the world statue! Turtles all the way down!


Flying Spaghetti Monster. (look it up)



We are what we are, and our heritage is where it comes from.


But not just our heritage. We've gotten beyond a heritage
of some people owning other people as property. We've gotten
beyond a heritage where people of one gender can vote and
people of the other gender cannot. Etc.

There are some for whom this new state of being is a problem.


Are they "Christians"?


They call themselves that.



And I guess it is like "art", you can call
yourself whatever you can get away with.



Calling oneself something does not make it so.


But if you can get a hundred people to agree with you?

- Mike KB3EIA -
  #455   Report Post  
Old September 18th 05, 02:09 AM
[email protected]
 
Posts: n/a
Default


wrote:
K=D8HB wrote:

A lot of them were over-run by married Europeans with syphilis.



The Great Nations of Europe
Had gathered on the shore
They'd conquered what was behind them
And now they wanted more
So they looked to the mighty ocean
And took to the western sea
The great nations of Europe in the sixteenth century

Hide your wives and daughters
Hide the groceries too
Great nations of Europe coming through

The Grand Canary Islands
First land to which they came
They slaughtered all the canaries there
Which gave the land its name
There were natives there called Guanches
Guanches by the score
Bullets, disease, the Portugese, and they weren't there anymore

Now they're gone, they're gone, they're really gone
You've never seen anyone so gone
They're a picture in a museum
Some lines written in a book
But you won't find a live one no matter where you look

Hide your wives and daughters
Hide the groceries too
Great nations of Europe coming through

Columbus sailed for India
Found Salvador instead
He shook hands with some Indians and soon they all were dead
They got TB and typhoid and athlete's foot
Diptheria and the flu
'Scuse me - Great nations coming through!

Balboa found the Pacific
And on the trail one day
He met some friendly Indians
Whom he was told were gay
So he had them torn apart by dogs on religious grounds they say
The great nations of Europe were quite holy in their way

Now they're gone, they're gone, they're really gone
You've never seen anyone so gone
Some bones hidden in a canyon
Some paintings in a cave
There's no use trying to save them
There's nothing left to save

Hide your wives and daughters
Hide your sons as well
With the great nations of Europe you never can tell

From where you and I are standing

At the dawn of a century
Europes have sprung up everyone as even I can see
But there on the horizon as a possiblity
Some bug from out of Africa might come for you and me
Destroying everything in its path
From sea to shining sea

Like the great nations of Europe
In the sixteenth century

"Great Nations of Europe" by Randy Newman

73 de Jim, N2EY


Jim sure is a smart feller. Always quoting the great people.



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