"Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr." wrote in message
...
Hi Hank

Since your doing a full gut rehab anyhow!

Here are a few ideas that we often do during upscale renovations.
The cost is negligible before the walls go up.
In the den, we run a 3/4 PVC conduit from a pull box in the den, both
upwards to the attic and downwards to the basement for future unknown
technological advances. We sometimes do the same thing in the master
bedroom.
All homes are daisy chain wired to every room with two 4 wire
telephone and two 6 wire shielded cable each in their respective
pullboxes, plus from the central utility area two 75 ohm coax are run
to a pullbox in each room.

Gary


The usage of a pathway (conduit, etc.) is always a good idea for future
additions for your structure home cabling (especially heavily used areas)

"Daisy chaining" is NO longer the acceptable physical installation practice
for home structured cabling (EIA/TIA 570-A standard). This was the practice
by the Bell Operating companies for telephone cabling before its breakup in
1984 .. and is mentioned as a legacy method used before the adoption of the
EIA/TIA standards. The standard also addresses 75 ohm video cabling (TV,
etc.) as well as have foundation standards (568 and 569) more suited for
larger commercial or business installations.

The standardized practice for structure cabling in new installations (and
remodeling or major retro-fits) is for "home-run" wiring from each outlet
from a central location (cabling in a physical star topology) with a
distance limitation of no more than 100 meters from equipment to the
telecommunications outlet. BICSI also performs certification of structured
cabling installers (electricians, contractors) for both residential and
commercial installations.

Do a Google search on EIA/TIA 570-A ; structured cabling or BICSI and you
will find the necessary information. The major cabling vendors (Leviton,
Systemax(old AT&T cable), etc.) also have this pertinent information.

I only point this out, since I am a professional consultant in this area ---
and find the "daisy chain" approach for physical cable installation still
practiced and approved by municipalities and contractors ... UNAWARE of
these standards ... now 10 years old and reviewed on an annual basis through
the EIA and TIA organizations.

gb

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 15:18:40 GMT, w9gb hath writ:
"Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr." wrote in message
...
Hi Hank

Since your doing a full gut rehab anyhow!

Here are a few ideas that we often do during upscale renovations.
The cost is negligible before the walls go up.
In the den, we run a 3/4 PVC conduit from a pull box in the den, both
upwards to the attic and downwards to the basement for future unknown
technological advances. We sometimes do the same thing in the master
bedroom.
All homes are daisy chain wired to every room with two 4 wire
telephone and two 6 wire shielded cable each in their respective
pullboxes, plus from the central utility area two 75 ohm coax are run
to a pullbox in each room.


The usage of a pathway (conduit, etc.) is always a good idea for future
additions for your structure home cabling (especially heavily used areas)

"Daisy chaining" is NO longer the acceptable physical installation practice
for home structured cabling (EIA/TIA 570-A standard). This was the practice
by the Bell Operating companies for telephone cabling before its breakup in
1984 .. and is mentioned as a legacy method used before the adoption of the
EIA/TIA standards. The standard also addresses 75 ohm video cabling (TV,
etc.) as well as have foundation standards (568 and 569) more suited for
larger commercial or business installations.

The standardized practice for structure cabling in new installations (and
remodeling or major retro-fits) is for "home-run" wiring from each outlet
from a central location (cabling in a physical star topology) with a
distance limitation of no more than 100 meters from equipment to the
telecommunications outlet. BICSI also performs certification of structured
cabling installers (electricians, contractors) for both residential and
commercial installations.

Do a Google search on EIA/TIA 570-A ; structured cabling or BICSI and you
will find the necessary information. The major cabling vendors (Leviton,
Systemax(old AT&T cable), etc.) also have this pertinent information.

I only point this out, since I am a professional consultant in this area ---
and find the "daisy chain" approach for physical cable installation still
practiced and approved by municipalities and contractors ... UNAWARE of
these standards ... now 10 years old and reviewed on an annual basis through
the EIA and TIA organizations.

I second the comment daisy chaining telco wiring.
Several months ago I did a self-install of DSL here. And, from past
'projects' putting in 'extra' phones in various rooms, I knew the
hay-wire daisy chain scheme I had (circa. 1977) -- going all 'round
the attic -- thence to the finished basement and snaking through the
stud walls there. What I ended up doing was installing my own NIB
(Network Interface Box) just downstream from the telco NIB. There I
installed a DSL filter on the daisy chain line headed for attic.
Ahead of the DSL filter I installed a new line and pulled it into
the home office. Not a lick of trouble with DSL since day 1.

Going the other route: installing DSL filters at each outlet
along the daisy chain did *not* give me a warm and fuzzy feeling.
I felt there would still be plenty of opportunity for RF noise
to get into the long daisy chain (read: random wire antenna) --
which would degrade the DSL operation. Too, I was concerned
about the interaction (both ways) between the DSL signals and
my amateur radio activity.

Just last week I did a DSL install for a small, local real estate
office -- two agents and a receptionist -- 3 PC's (that were
here-to-fore freestanding.) They had a punch-down block in the
basement for 2 'voice' lines and 1 'fax' line -- with separate lines
running off to phones and fax. Simple install: I installed a DSL
filter on the fax line (the line carrying DSL) right at the punch-down
block -- breaking out a new, short line to the DSL modem/router and
hub thingies which I mounted on a shelf close by. From there it was
'simple' to pull CAT-5 cable to each of the 3 PC's upstairs.

I'd say: pay the telco to put in a punch-down block -- and run
two lines in from the street or alley (even if you only plan on
using 1 line -- now.) Then run 2-pair from 'everywhere' in the
house to the punch-down block -- but tie back (store) the ones
that are not (yet) in use.

HTH
Jonesy
--
| Marvin L Jones | jonz | W3DHJ | linux
| Gunnison, Colorado | @ | Jonesy | OS/2 __
| 7,703' -- 2,345m | config.com | DM68mn SK

"Allodoxaphobia" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 15:18:40 GMT, w9gb hath writ:
"Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr." wrote in
message
...

I second the comment daisy chaining telco wiring.
Several months ago I did a self-install of DSL here. And, from past
'projects' putting in 'extra' phones in various rooms, I knew the
hay-wire daisy chain scheme I had (circa. 1977) -- going all 'round
the attic -- thence to the finished basement and snaking through the
stud walls there. What I ended up doing was installing my own NIB
(Network Interface Box) just downstream from the telco NIB. There I
installed a DSL filter on the daisy chain line headed for attic.
Ahead of the DSL filter I installed a new line and pulled it into
the home office. Not a lick of trouble with DSL since day 1.

[snip]
HTH
Jonesy
--

Yes, one DSL filter at the "head-end" or entrance panel can address all of
the distribution issues with DSL. In fact, I prefer to keep the DSL modem
and router AT the head end.
Surplus network equipment that is more than adequate for home networking is
almost being given away these days.

I live the Leviton system, but have used others, as well as the original
plywood backer board and 66-block / 110 block installations

Leviton has a very good book (Adobe Acrobat that anyone can download) that
should be required reading for the planning stages. It's normally $ 10 BUT
the downloadable Acrobat copy is FREE
Covers ALL of the diagrams and techniques the are compatible with the
EIA/TIA standards.
This is a MUST for your local building contractor or DIY installer.
http://www.levitonvoicedata.com/learning/wiring.asp

Wiring Strategies Installation Guide (its a 2 Mb file)
http://www.levitonvoicedata.com/lear...strategies.pdf

w9gb

Thanks for the link, that was very timely.

I am days away from closing on a second house, where my existing bedroom
shop will migrate to.
I've always greatly preferred homerunning everything, even back in my alarm
days, in the late 70's.
Much easier to debug, much fewer problems.

I will need to do phones, cable, cat5, and some misc control signals.
I have a wiring panel coming, and a bunch of 66 blocks

Brings back the good old days. Some of my resedential alarms filled a 4x8
sheet on the wall, and had dedicated rooms. Doubly or triply redundant
systems, with multiple sensing technologies, supervised wiring, phone and
wireless reporting. Those were the days.

"Dave VanHorn" wrote in message
...

Thanks for the link, that was very timely.

I am days away from closing on a second house, where my existing bedroom
shop will migrate to.
I've always greatly preferred homerunning everything, even back in my
alarm days, in the late 70's.
Much easier to debug, much fewer problems.

I will need to do phones, cable, cat5, and some misc control signals.
I have a wiring panel coming, and a bunch of 66 blocks

Brings back the good old days. Some of my resedential alarms filled a 4x8
sheet on the wall, and had dedicated rooms. Doubly or triply redundant
systems, with multiple sensing technologies, supervised wiring, phone and
wireless reporting. Those were the days.

Dave,

Here are some photos of a local install (not mine) for TC and phone ( 10
years old now)
http://www.schmitzhouse.com/images/Video%20Dist.jpg

I was not a fan of placing this block on a joist (who wants to look up all
day)
http://www.schmitzhouse.com/Johns_Electronics_03.htm

His house inverter construction takes the prize for labor
http://www.schmitzhouse.com/Johns_Electronics_02.htm

Greg
http://www.schmitzhouse.com/Johns_Electronics_03.htm

His house inverter construction takes the prize for labor
http://www.schmitzhouse.com/Johns_Electronics_02.htm

Good lord..

Greg
http://www.schmitzhouse.com/Johns_Electronics_03.htm

nice pix. I'll need to do some cleanup before I can start in earnest, it
used to be a rental, and the last tennant left "under duress". Still, it
appraises for 20% more than I'm paying.
I've been in a large bedroom for about 8 years now, but the bedroom seems to
have shrunk over time. That, and I air condition 10 months out of the year,
due to the surplus of electric heat from the equipment.

I'm thinking in terms of a 6" pvc into the attic, some of the cables I need
to pull thru are nearly an inch in diameter.

I wish I had some from my early days projects, but that would have been kind
of a bad idea... Not to mention disallowed in many cases.. The last one I
did professionally, was the office of the commander in chief, pacific fleet.
Fun doing wiring with an armed marine behind you all day.

There was a time that I put 600 phone lines into a residential basement in
wisconsin.

"Dave VanHorn" wrote in message
...

His house inverter construction takes the prize for labor
http://www.schmitzhouse.com/Johns_Electronics_02.htm

Good lord..

Nice pix. I'll need to do some cleanup before I can start in earnest, it
used to be a rental, and the last tennant left "under duress". Still, it
appraises for 20% more than I'm paying.
I've been in a large bedroom for about 8 years now, but the bedroom seems
to have shrunk over time. That, and I air condition 10 months out of the
year, due to the surplus of electric heat from the equipment.

I'm thinking in terms of a 6" pvc into the attic, some of the cables I
need to pull thru are nearly an inch in diameter.

I wish I had some from my early days projects, but that would have been
kind of a bad idea... Not to mention disallowed in many cases.. The last
one I did professionally, was the office of the commander in chief,
pacific fleet. Fun doing wiring with an armed marine behind you all day.

There was a time that I put 600 phone lines into a residential basement in
Wisconsin.


In commercial installs, (multi-story high rises) I used two 4" sleeves
(three sleeves on some of the lower floors) between wiring closets on the
floors.

For residential, I usually use two or three runs of 2 inch schedule 40 PVC
electrical conduit (schedule 80 when required) and one of two runs of 1 inch
PVC conduit. Fits with most stud wall (2x4) construction and 2" is the
largest knockout size for the flush mount enclosures (electrical or
Leviton's SMC)

I keep the RG-6 coax runs in separate conduit from the UTP runs.

I save the 1 inch runs for special marked cables (service runs from outdoor
demarcations, alarm, etc.) OR for fiber optic cabling.

Greg

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:20:50 -0500, Dave VanHorn hath writ:


I'm thinking in terms of a 6" pvc into the attic, some of the cables I need
to pull thru are nearly an inch in diameter.

Probably a thing that keeps your local fire marshal awake at night.

A vertical, non-fireproof chimney (and that's what 6" PVC is) running
vertical between floors will facilitate the growth of a small fire on
a lower floor into one of catastrophic proportions. Use metal conduit,
and stuff some coarse steel wool into the ends after you have run
the cables. You, you family, and the fire marshal will sleep better.

It's a Real Good Thing to even stuff something like steel wool into
overly large holes used to pass smallish cable through sill plates.

There was a time that I put 600 phone lines into a residential
basement in wisconsin.

I think I know the name of that spammer. :-)

Regards,
Jonesy
--
| Marvin L Jones | jonz | W3DHJ | linux
| Gunnison, Colorado | @ | Jonesy | OS/2 __
| 7,703' -- 2,345m | config.com | DM68mn SK

Hi gb

I agree!

I also was not quite clear in my statements either.

We only daisy chain each rooms telephone circuits from a central
locatiion using loops in the pullboxes, having blank cover plates over
those pullboxes until it is decided which one will suffice for the
room furniture layout.

For computer we usually use the 75 ohm cable direct to the central
area for internet, and for internal networking the 6 wire cable is
used. It too runs from each room to the central area. If the
internal network only goes to rooms B and D only those two connections
are made in the central area.

In my house I have a shielded twisted pair going to each room, in each
room it is daisy chained to all possible outlets, at least 1 on each
wall, in some cases two on a couple of the walls. Unless it was used
at one time, there are no connections within the pull boxes.

However one decides to handle their wiring and extra's it's better to
have and not need than to not have at all.

Price is also a consideration! Running 6 telephone lines from a
central area to each room in the home can get quite expensive and
overly redundant for most home installations.

In addition, some cities charge 10 to 13 bucks extra on the permits
for each pullbox installed, even when those pullboxes are used for
non-permit required applications.

In my old house we had 46 outlets in the kitchen.
As if 46 were not enough already, the inspector required that we
install 4 more additional outlets in areas we considered to be very
hazardous to have outlets at all.
And sure enough, one of the extra duplexes we had to add, became a
constant torment to us. Not from usage, its 'required' location was
in a place where it was continually damaged and required regular
replacement.
Another was in a location where water was splashed on it several
times.
But you cannot fight the STUPIDITY of City Hall!

TTUL
Gary

"Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr." wrote in message
...
Hi gb

I agree!

I also was not quite clear in my statements either.

We only daisy chain each rooms telephone circuits from a central
locatiion using loops in the pullboxes, having blank cover plates over
those pullboxes until it is decided which one will suffice for the
room furniture layout.

For computer we usually use the 75 ohm cable direct to the central
area for internet, and for internal networking the 6 wire cable is
used. It too runs from each room to the central area. If the
internal network only goes to rooms B and D only those two connections
are made in the central area.

In my house I have a shielded twisted pair going to each room, in each
room it is daisy chained to all possible outlets, at least 1 on each
wall, in some cases two on a couple of the walls. Unless it was used
at one time, there are no connections within the pull boxes.

However one decides to handle their wiring and extra's it's better to
have and not need than to not have at all.

Price is also a consideration! Running 6 telephone lines from a
central area to each room in the home can get quite expensive and
overly redundant for most home installations.

In addition, some cities charge 10 to 13 bucks extra on the permits
for each pullbox installed, even when those pullboxes are used for
non-permit required applications.
[snip]

TTUL
Gary

I would like to know which municipality or government entity these building
codes (permit charges) are coming from. Category 5e cable is very
inexpensive and the number of telecommunication outlets does not change --
whether daisy-chained or home-run.
Daisy chaining STP cable just introduces potential ground loops, since no
single ground potential point is established (grounding section of NEC and
EIA/TIA),

Luckily as long as the contractor does not staple the wire continuous along
the studs (just at the "rough-in" plate) .. these nuisances are relatively
easy to correct.

Who taught you this physical cabling method? It is also contrary to BICSI
certifications.

The National Electrical Code has been changed to reflect the EIA/TIA
standards for structured cabling and often takes precedence over local
codes, UNLESS the local code is more stringent or specific for
fire,health,safety reasons. For example, although ROMEX is permitted under
code, DuPage county (IL) as well as city of Chicago strictly forbid its
usage for electrical wiring. This stems from tragic fires and safety (e.g.
1959 elementary school fire in Chicago with large loss of life)

gb