Cecil Moore wrote:
But now let's allow signals to be introduced into the thread.
My dipole was arcing once per second at the coax connector.
I couldn't hear any signals. I estimate the signal to noise
ratio under those conditions to be zero. Would you disagree?

So now you are saying you were talking about arcs in connectors?
Talk about diversions!

You SPECIFICALLY proposed the noise came from millions of dust
particles hitting the antenna each second. RF noise generated directly
by charged particles hitting the antenna. No arcs, no corona according
to YOU. Not me!

I modified my dipole into a folded dipole. The arcing ceased
and I could then hear signals. I estimate the signal to noise
ratio was not zero any more. Would you disagree?

Well, I would agree you have a VERY screwed up system to start with if
you had a big antenna without a leak resistance that offered a high
resistance or reactance at radio frequencies.

I've said all from the very start no one should be so careless as to
float the antenna.

I really question the IQ of anyone who asserts that eliminating
arcing in a system doesn't reduce the noise. I assume you are
not a member of MENSA. :-)

Nice tactic. Attack the other guy while totally changing what you
originally claimed.
Of course anyone can read back and see you were the one who claimed the
noise was from particles hitting the antenna.

Anyway, I'm glad you realized your folded dipole nonsense about the dc
loop stopping p-static from particle noise as they hit the antenna was
just that, and now you realize it is charge differences and arcing and
forms of arcing that causes the problems.

Pretty soon you will realize the largest charge difference is from the
air and things in the air around the antenna and earth that causes the
problem, and that grounding the antenna doesn't reduce that problem.

There's hope for you yet!

73 Tom

wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
But now let's allow signals to be introduced into the thread.
My dipole was arcing once per second at the coax connector.
I couldn't hear any signals. I estimate the signal to noise
ratio under those conditions to be zero. Would you disagree?

So now you are saying you were talking about arcs in connectors?

I have been very careful from the very beginning of this
thread to specify that the problem I was trying to solve
was arcing at the coax connector. You said a folded dipole
cannot solve that problem. You were wrong.

You SPECIFICALLY proposed the noise came from millions of dust
particles hitting the antenna each second. RF noise generated directly
by charged particles hitting the antenna. No arcs, no corona according
to YOU. Not me!

Sorry, I even said the arcing scorched my carpet when the coax
connector was disconnected. Anyone who wants to check the history
of this thread can verify that. Your assertion that a folded dipole
wouldn't change the noise level was 100% false.

Nice tactic. Attack the other guy while totally changing what you
originally claimed.

If you can prove that I changed what I originally claimed, I
will write you a check for $1000. From the very beginning of
this argument, my problem was arcing. You asserted that eliminating
arcing didn't change the noise level. You were wrong. Anyone who
wants to can go back and verify those facts can do so.

Of course anyone can read back and see you were the one who claimed the
noise was from particles hitting the antenna.

Yes, it was, and it caused arcing which I needed to eliminate.
The folded dipole eliminated the problem contrary to what you
asserted.

... and that grounding the antenna doesn't reduce that problem.

Grounding the antenna eliminated the arcing which was my problem.
Sorry about that, Tom, but your ignorance has been exposed. Seems
you need a tutorial on how a DC arc can convert energy to RF
noise.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
But now let's allow signals to be introduced into the thread.
My dipole was arcing once per second at the coax connector.
I couldn't hear any signals. I estimate the signal to noise
ratio under those conditions to be zero. Would you disagree?

So now you are saying you were talking about arcs in connectors?
Talk about diversions!

Just to prove that you are fibbing, Tom, here is my posting
from two weeks ago in answer to one of your postings:
************************************************** *******************
wrote:
Try this test, wire a small 2.5 MHh RF choke across your antenna and
check the before and after noise levels. They will not change.

That's exactly how I eliminated the noise and arcing on my
first bare-wire G5RV installed in Arizona.
************************************************** *******************

How does it feel to be caught in a bold-faced lie?
--
73, Cecil, W5DXP

Cecil Moore wrote:


How does it feel to be caught in a bold-faced lie?
--
73, Cecil, W5DXP

Only you would know that Cecil.

Tom Donaly wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:
Tom Donaly wrote:

gravity wrote:

"Tom Donaly" wrote in message
om...

Dave wrote:

Jim Kelley wrote:



Tom Donaly wrote:



Where's the experimental evidence, Cecil?





Ever heard of Ben Franklin? :-)

73, ac6xg


Every winter here in New England we run numerous experiments,
every time
I walk across the living room and touch a metal door knob.

The US military has an ESD specification of 25 KV @ 5 KOhms from a
healthy capacitor as a simulator.

Electro static discharge on antennas has been around for years. It is



real!

Dry Climate and Wind are all that's needed. Now, is the Physics at
the
air molecule level [Oxygen, Nitrogen, etc.], ionized Oxygen or
Nitrogen
atoms, charged dust particle level [that just begs the issue ...
how did
the dust get charged?], Van De Graff level, etc.? Who knows?

But, the antenna ESD is a very REAL effect. You can hypothesize the
cause all day. To solve the problem at the system level, I added
an ESD
bleed into my antenna switches.

I'm going to filter this thread to the circular file.


No one said ESD didn't exist. But you hit the nail on the head so far
as wind caused ESD, "Who knows?" I don't, and neither does Cecil,
although he thinks he does.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH




i thought it came from distant thunderstorms?

and if wind blows an ELF system around, it does get noisier. i believe
that's due to physical movement of the antenna system.

Gravity



You could be right, who knows? Certainly not the people who
are afraid to experiment.



Just as a point of info Tom. Do you perform experiments to prove
or disprove matters to your satisfaction on everything before
accepting it? That takes a very special person to be ultimately
skeptical.

Your posts would indicate that... or maybe that you just enjoy
busting on Cecil. 8^)

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

Actually, when it comes to some of the issues raised on this newsgroup,
yes, I do. I don't see why I should believe what Cecil makes up in his
head just because he makes it up in his head.

Okay, Tom. I'll accept that you have personal experimental results for
your statements. Not many do.

I'm not sure that anyone here believes Cecil just because he is Cecil.
I don't. Some times I see him posting his way into some very deep holes...



"I can't believe _that_!" said Alice.
"Can't you?" the Queen said in a pitying tone. "Try again: draw a
long breath, and shut your eyes."
Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said: "one can't believe
impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I
was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes
I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. There
goes the shawl again!"

Cecil and the White Queen would get along well together.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH


I am corrected. You both determine everything experimentally and enjoy
busting on Cecil. I assumed an "And" situation, while it was actually an
"OR" situation.. 8^)

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
How does it feel to be caught in a bold-faced lie?

Only you would know that Cecil.

You have known ever since June 10 that I have been talking
about *arcing* at the coax connector. Yet here it is
June 23 with you still pretending that you didn't know
I was talking about arcing. Here's a June 11 posting
following the June 9 one where I told you I was talking
about arcing.

wrote:
When did you do that test?

Around 1990 to cure the *arcing* at the coax connector
during clear-sky high-wind conditions in the Arizona
desert.

Please stop pretending that you didn't know I was talking
about arcing.

Going from a dipole to a folded dipole eliminated my arcing
problem.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Cecil Moore wrote:

Then the argument boils down to whether the noise level threshold
is *exactly* equal to the corona threshold. That means there is zero
noise until 100 uA/cm^2 starts to flow through the air accompaning
the corona. Can you appreciate how ridiculous such an argument
really is?


Well, suppose you have a #18 ga stranded wire composed of 7 strands of #26.
One strand is sticking up all by itself. The end of the strand (if cut off
squarely) is about 0.0013 cm^2. So a current flow of 0.13 uA from the end of
this strand is 100 uA/cm^2.

And, the situation is exacerbated by wire with smaller strands and with
strands more pointed than by being squarely cut off.

John

John - KD5YI wrote:
Well, suppose you have a #18 ga stranded wire composed of 7 strands of
#26. One strand is sticking up all by itself. The end of the strand (if
cut off squarely) is about 0.0013 cm^2. So a current flow of 0.13 uA
from the end of this strand is 100 uA/cm^2.

We can suppose all sorts of conditions to obtain corona.
There's absolutely no argument about that. The argument
is whether corona occurs 100% of the time on any and all
antennas with charged particle static. If corona occurs
only 99.9% of the time, the corona gang loses the argument.

The argument is whether corona *always* accompanies charged
particle noise. That's an exclusive assertion that there
exists no cases where corona doesn't accompany charged
particle noise.

I fully agree that corona *often* accompanies charged particle
noise but that's an inclusive assertion.

If enough particles hit the antenna to just
barely hear the noise on a receiver, the corona crowd says
that corona caused the noise. I would like to see some proof
for such a statement so far out of mainstream physics.

Can we suppose a condition where corona won't happen?
How about a #14 solid wire with rounded ends? Do you think
it could build up enough charged particle noise to be heard
in a receiver without the existence of corona?
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Cecil Moore wrote:
....

Going from a dipole to a folded dipole eliminated my arcing
problem.

Thank you for sharing that with us, Cecil.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Tom Donaly wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
Going from a dipole to a folded dipole eliminated my arcing
problem.

Thank you for sharing that with us, Cecil.

Well, W8JI said going from a dipole to a folded dipole
doesn't change the noise level. Not only did it eliminate
arcing but it probably eliminated any trace of corona.
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp