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Old October 10th 11, 06:45 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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Posts: 76
Default Power supply noise reduction techniques.

I'm looking for advice on the reduction of noise in my radio audio
that is coming from the charge controller for the battery that they
run on. My power supply is arranged in the following sequence;
Receptacle outlet (power point), Astron RS-50A linear regulated power
supply, Xantrex C35 Charge controller, 150 AH Absorbed Glass Mat
Battery, Rigrunner Model 4008 power strip, Radios and other loads from
there. First let me assure everyone that I have exonerated the other
loads by disconnecting them from the Rig Runner. Second I have
exonerated the Astron RS-50A by substituting an RS-35M with no
change. I know that these Xantrex charge controllers use a form of
pulse modulation to forestall sulphation of the battery plates and the
attendant loss of capacity. I do not know if that is the source of
the noise that other operators have told me is occurring on my audio.
What does clear up the noise is turning the power supply off and
running directly off of the battery. I could pull the charge
controller out of the circuit in order to differentiate between noise
from the power supply and noise from the charge controller but I would
like to continue to use the Charge Controller and filter the noise at
the input of the Rigrunner. That way the noise, in the form of the
anti sulphation pulses, would make it to the battery but not to the
radio.

Does this seem like a practical approach and how would I go about it
and still allow the anti sulphation pulses to reach the battery.

--
Tom Horne, W3TDH


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Old October 10th 11, 09:14 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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Posts: 17
Default Power supply noise reduction techniques.



In article

,

Tom Horne wrote:



I'm looking for advice on the reduction of noise in my radio audio


that is coming from the charge controller for the battery that they


run on. My power supply is arranged in the following sequence;


Receptacle outlet (power point), Astron RS-50A linear regulated power


supply, Xantrex C35 Charge controller, 150 AH Absorbed Glass Mat


Battery, Rigrunner Model 4008 power strip, Radios and other loads from


there. First let me assure everyone that I have exonerated the other


loads by disconnecting them from the Rig Runner. Second I have


exonerated the Astron RS-50A by substituting an RS-35M with no


change. I know that these Xantrex charge controllers use a form of


pulse modulation to forestall sulphation of the battery plates and the


attendant loss of capacity. I do not know if that is the source of


the noise that other operators have told me is occurring on my audio.


What does clear up the noise is turning the power supply off and


running directly off of the battery. I could pull the charge


controller out of the circuit in order to differentiate between noise


from the power supply and noise from the charge controller but I would


like to continue to use the Charge Controller and filter the noise at


the input of the Rigrunner. That way the noise, in the form of the


anti sulphation pulses, would make it to the battery but not to the


radio.




Does this seem like a practical approach and how would I go about it


and still allow the anti sulphation pulses to reach the battery.




--


Tom Horne, W3TDH




First off, Why do you have a charge controller in the system in the

first place????? If you just set the Regulated Power Supply to

14.1 Vdc, and let it float across the AGM Battery it will keep

Fully Charged, without issue. When the battery voltage drops below that

14.1 Vdc the Power Supply will make up the current, being drawn, to the

point that it recharges battery back to the setpoint of 14.1 Vdc.

AGM Batteries do NOT Sulfate, in the normal sense of the word.



I use a pair of L16HDs in series to power my shacks 12Vdc Buss. They

are feed by a Numar 35Amp Regulated Power Supply, that is set for

13.4Vdc. The Power Supply floats the batteries at 13.4 Vdc, until I go

into Transmit Mode, and then it takes over supplying the loads up to

its 35 Amp capacity. At that point, the Battery makes up the difference,

until the load drops below 35 Amps, and then the Power Supply will

slowly recharge the batteries back to float at 13.4Vdc. this has been in

continuous use, for 20 years, with only a single change of Batteries,

with NO other issues, and I really didn't need to do a Battery swap, and

used those old batteries elsewhere, till they finally died.



--

Bruce in Alaska add path before the @ for email




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Old October 10th 11, 09:14 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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Posts: 300
Default Power supply noise reduction techniques.

On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 13:45:29 EDT, Tom Horne wrote:

Does this seem like a practical approach and how would I go about it
and still allow the anti sulphation pulses to reach the battery.


Based on my own experience:

1. Bypass the charge controller - it won't hurt the battery if done
for a short time. Then you will see if it is in fact the device or
not.

2. If it is the device, sayonara - put it on eBay and get a
unified full-capacity regulated charger with known low- or no-noise
characteristics and designed for the specific type(s) of batteries to
be floated.

The one that I use is the Precision Dynamics PD-9260 60A "smart
charger" made for my AGMs with no problem. It will also run the rated
load without a battery, It's intended for RV applications so the
price is a bit high, but then again you get what you pay for.

(I don't own stock in Precision Dynamics....)
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest

Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

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Old October 10th 11, 09:14 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jan 2007
Posts: 300
Default Power supply noise reduction techniques.

On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:27:49 -0700, Phil Kane
wrote:

Does this seem like a practical approach and how would I go about it
and still allow the anti sulphation pulses to reach the battery.


Based on my own experience:

1. Bypass the charge controller - it won't hurt the battery if done
for a short time. Then you will see if it is in fact the device or
not.

2. If it is the device, sayonara - put it on eBay and get a
unified full-capacity regulated charger with known low- or no-noise
characteristics and designed for the specific type(s) of batteries to
be floated.

The one that I use is the Precision Dynamics PD-9260 60A "smart
charger" made for my AGMs with no problem. It will also run the rated
load without a battery, It's intended for RV applications so the
price is a bit high, but then again you get what you pay for.

(I don't own stock in Precision Dynamics....)


I forgot to add:

Before I went to that approach I tried hanging 32,000 uFd of
capacitance where you would have the RigRunner input. It didn't help.
The pulses designed for the battery would ride into the RigRunner as
well because there's no isolation between the output of the charge
controller and the RigRunner input. Even if there were, experience
teaches us that noise has a habit of finding "sneak paths" into
equipment, usually in ground loops connecting them.
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest

Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

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Old October 11th 11, 03:05 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,185
Default Power supply noise reduction techniques.

On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 13:45:29 -0400, Tom Horne wrote:

I'm looking for advice on the reduction of noise in my radio audio that
is coming from the charge controller for the battery that they run on.
My power supply is arranged in the following sequence; Receptacle outle

t
(power point), Astron RS-50A linear regulated power supply, Xantrex C35
Charge controller, 150 AH Absorbed Glass Mat Battery, Rigrunner Model
4008 power strip, Radios and other loads from there. First let me
assure everyone that I have exonerated the other loads by disconnecting
them from the Rig Runner. Second I have exonerated the Astron RS-50A b

y
substituting an RS-35M with no change. I know that these Xantrex charg

e
controllers use a form of pulse modulation to forestall sulphation of
the battery plates and the attendant loss of capacity. I do not know i

f
that is the source of the noise that other operators have told me is
occurring on my audio. What does clear up the noise is turning the powe

r
supply off and running directly off of the battery. I could pull the
charge controller out of the circuit in order to differentiate between
noise from the power supply and noise from the charge controller but I
would like to continue to use the Charge Controller and filter the nois

e
at the input of the Rigrunner. That way the noise, in the form of the
anti sulphation pulses, would make it to the battery but not to the
radio.

Does this seem like a practical approach and how would I go about it an

d
still allow the anti sulphation pulses to reach the battery.


Xantrex has a bad rep for RF interference. I use an Astron SMPS with no
noise.



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Old October 24th 11, 05:31 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: May 2010
Posts: 57
Default Power supply noise reduction techniques.

On 10/10/2011 4:14 PM, Bruce Gordon wrote:

I use a pair of L16HDs in series to power my shacks 12Vdc Buss. They

are feed by a Numar 35Amp Regulated Power Supply, that is set for

13.4Vdc. The Power Supply floats the batteries at 13.4 Vdc


If you are floating batteries you should consider a proper 3-stage
converter/charger.. http://www.bestconverters.com is a good source of
those.. he specializes in RV converters. (By the way I have no
connection with him)

My Motor home has a Progressive Dynamics 9180 with optional charge
wizard. This is on the large size for a pair of GC-2 Golf car type
batteries in series... but man does it do a good job. a 8260 would be a
better choice for these batteries (one pair)

It has 3 charge voltages depending on teh battery voltage it either
limits current, limits voltage, or limits both.

--
Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business.

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2092/4569 - Release Date: 10/23/11

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Old October 24th 11, 05:32 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: May 2010
Posts: 57
Default Power supply noise reduction techniques.

On 10/10/2011 4:14 PM, Phil Kane wrote:
On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 13:45:29 EDT, Tom wrote:

Does this seem like a practical approach and how would I go about it
and still allow the anti sulphation pulses to reach the battery.


Based on my own experience:

1. Bypass the charge controller - it won't hurt the battery if done
for a short time. Then you will see if it is in fact the device or
not.

2. If it is the device, sayonara - put it on eBay and get a
unified full-capacity regulated charger with known low- or no-noise
characteristics and designed for the specific type(s) of batteries to
be floated.

The one that I use is the Precision Dynamics PD-9260 60A "smart
charger" made for my AGMs with no problem. It will also run the rated
load without a battery, It's intended for RV applications so the
price is a bit high, but then again you get what you pay for.

(I don't own stock in Precision Dynamics....)
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest

Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

I just suggested teh same converter... 9260.

I will add... I have heard complaints of "nose" from those.. but my
TS-2000 which is closer "Electrically" to the converter than the
batteries,,,, Can not tell the difference between converter on and
converter off (Till the batteries go down that is)

The unit in my RV is a 9180 with wizard


--
Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business.

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2092/4569 - Release Date: 10/23/11

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Old October 24th 11, 08:53 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Dec 2010
Posts: 17
Default Power supply noise reduction techniques.



In article ,

John Davis wrote:



On 10/10/2011 4:14 PM, Bruce Gordon wrote:




I use a pair of L16HDs in series to power my shacks 12Vdc Buss. They




are feed by a Numar 35Amp Regulated Power Supply, that is set for




13.4Vdc. The Power Supply floats the batteries at 13.4 Vdc




If you are floating batteries you should consider a proper 3-stage


converter/charger.. http://www.bestconverters.com is a good source of


those.. he specializes in RV converters. (By the way I have no


connection with him)




My Motor home has a Progressive Dynamics 9180 with optional charge


wizard. This is on the large size for a pair of GC-2 Golf car type


batteries in series... but man does it do a good job. a 8260 would be a


better choice for these batteries (one pair)




It has 3 charge voltages depending on teh battery voltage it either


limits current, limits voltage, or limits both.




If you are just floating the Batteries across a Regulated Powers Supply,

there is NO Need to go to the expense of a Three State Charger. 99%

of the time you will not be using the Battery for anything but a buffer.

The 1% of the time, where you have actually USED some of the Battery

Capacity, and are in Recharge Mode, the amount of current supplied to

the Battery, as opposed to the attached Load, only depends on the

battery Voltage, to Regulated Voltage Ratio, and that will just slow

charge the battery back to 100% Charge, and the Set Float Voltage.

What does a Three State Charger, give you, that isn't inherent in the

Regulated Power Supply Setup? Just wondering?



--

Bruce in Alaska add path before the @ for email




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Old October 25th 11, 04:07 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Oct 2007
Posts: 76
Default Power supply noise reduction techniques.

On Oct 24, 3:53 pm, Bruce Gordon wrote:
In article ,

John Davis wrote:









On 10/10/2011 4:14 PM, Bruce Gordon wrote:


I use a pair of L16HDs in series to power my shacks 12Vdc Buss. They


are feed by a Numar 35Amp Regulated Power Supply, that is set for


13.4Vdc. The Power Supply floats the batteries at 13.4 Vdc


If you are floating batteries you should consider a proper 3-stage
converter/charger..http://www.bestconverters.comis a good source of
those.. he specializes in RV converters. (By the way I have no
connection with him)


My Motor home has a Progressive Dynamics 9180 with optional charge
wizard. This is on the large size for a pair of GC-2 Golf car type
batteries in series... but man does it do a good job. a 8260 would b

e a
better choice for these batteries (one pair)


It has 3 charge voltages depending on teh battery voltage it either
limits current, limits voltage, or limits both.


If you are just floating the Batteries across a Regulated Powers Supply,

there is NO Need to go to the expense of a Three State Charger. 99%

of the time you will not be using the Battery for anything but a buffer.

The 1% of the time, where you have actually USED some of the Battery

Capacity, and are in Recharge Mode, the amount of current supplied to

the Battery, as opposed to the attached Load, only depends on the

battery Voltage, to Regulated Voltage Ratio, and that will just slow

charge the battery back to 100% Charge, and the Set Float Voltage.

What does a Three State Charger, give you, that isn't inherent in the

Regulated Power Supply Setup? Just wondering?

--

Bruce in Alaska add path before the @ for email


Bruce

A three stage charger, with the input supply voltage set to the
correct level, will quickly recharge the battery while the source
current is available by applying a higher voltage to the battery than
it's float voltage. That feature was very important in the aftermath
of severe weather when I need to minimize generator run time in order
to conserve fuel. It then holds the charging voltage to that level
until the current tapers off to a preset level or until a set time has
passed. It then drops the voltage to the float level and allows the
maximum current available from the power supply to pass through the
charger to the loads connected to the battery. The Chargers thermal
sensor adjust the charging voltage to compensate for the battery's
temperature so as to minimize charging time in cold weather and limit
the heat stress on the battery in hot weather. By sensing both
battery temperature and current flow it will prevent battery runaway
and overheating if the battery fails internally thus avoiding battery
rupture, explosion, and / or fire. If my 100 Ah battery were to short
a cell, while directly connected to the Astron RS-50A power supply, it
would continue to take up the fifty amps of current available from the
Astron RS-50A until it ruptured or exploded. The only protection
against that occurrence would be the fold back circuit on the power
supply that would only come into play when the current exceeded it's
fifty ampere capacity. The controller also pulses the battery every
several seconds with a pulse width modulated charging voltage to
retard the formation of sulfur crystals on the plates that would
increase the internal resistance of the battery and reduce it's
capacity. It is those conditioning pulses that are causing the QRN in
my radios.

--
Tom Horne, W3TDH

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Old November 5th 11, 03:27 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: May 2010
Posts: 57
Default Power supply noise reduction techniques.

On 10/24/2011 3:53 PM, Bruce Gordon wrote:


If you are just floating the Batteries across a Regulated Powers Supply,

there is NO Need to go to the expense of a Three State Charger. 99%

of the time you will not be using the Battery for anything but a buffer.

The 1% of the time, where you have actually USED some of the Battery

Capacity, and are in Recharge Mode, the amount of current supplied to

the Battery, as opposed to the attached Load, only depends on the

battery Voltage, to Regulated Voltage Ratio, and that will just slow

charge the battery back to 100% Charge, and the Set Float Voltage.

What does a Three State Charger, give you, that isn't inherent in the

Regulated Power Supply Setup? Just wondering?




Two things. First if you set your single voltage power supply to the
battery FLOAT voltage, it will never fully charge the battery. It can
not possibly bring it back up to full.

Second.. If, by chance, the power company fails to deliver (Which where
I'm from is all too common in these days of layed off tree trimmers) the
3-stage will not only re-fill it but will re-fill it faster.

Plus, depending on the converter... It may have additional filters..
Such as a battery just sitting there can become stratified, When this
happens the liquid near the top of the battery is mostly water, and the
acid is near the bottom... You have now lost a major portion of y our
battery.

The Progressive Dynamics converter I have has specific programming to
prevent this... The same programming also cuts down on sulfation which
is another thing that shortens the battery life.

--
Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business.

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1869 / Virus Database: 2092/4597 - Release Date: 11/04/11



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