In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

I think that the numbers of hams will continue to
decrease until we are taken out of the limbo we have been in for some
time now.

What "limbo", Mike? We've had a class of US ham license with no code test
for
more than 13-1/2 years now. The maximum code test speed has been 5 wpm
for more
than 4 years now - and for a decade before that, medical waivers were
available.

Limbo is when a prospective ham thinks that possibly he or she can get
on HF simply by waiting a few months and not having to take any Morse
code test.

OK. But would that really keep a lot of folks from getting any license at all?

It would seem to me that the sensible thing to do in that situation, were
someone that averse to the 5 wpm code test, would be to pass the Tech and
General writtens. Maybe toss in the Extra written too. They'd have a Tech
license and General and/or Extra CSCE. Then, when the code test went away,
they'd be all set to go. Spend the waiting time setting up a station, antenna,
etc.

Let's compare the situation to when the Governor of PA had the temporary
tax exemption on computers. I think it lasted something like a week.
Guess what happened to computer sales at the local Circuit City, Best
Buy, etc. the week or two before the exemption. When I went in and
looked around, the sales clerk at one store even told me to hold off
until next week.

Seems like a direct comparison to me.

Not really. We *knew* the tax exemption was coming, and it was only a week or
two away. And we knew the exemption would only last a week or so.

It made sense for folks who were contemplating a computer purchase to simply
wait a week or two.

Here in southeast PA, some folks simply drive to Delaware for big taxable
purchases that are easily portable. Computers, hamgear, cameras, etc. The big
question is whether the savings offset the driving cost.

Yet our businesses survive.

The code test may or may not go away in the next few years/months/decades.
The
written exams may change similarly. The various bands may change as well.

I don't think that's the problem.

The prospective amateur has *no* idea at this time if the Morse code
requirement will be kept, how long it will be kept if it is, and when it
will go away if it is discarded.

So? Someone who really wants to be a ham will do what is necessary to pass
the tests at the time.

I'd temper that. If I thought that the Morse requirement would go away
in say, 6 months, I would have waited.

Sure - but that's if you knew for sure. At this point we don't even have an
NPRM.

ARRL predicted 2 years. It's been over 14 months since WRC 2003 ended.

And most people do not expect a long time to pass before it goes away.
I know some people were incredulous when I gave my time to expiry (if
any) in that pool we had a while back.

I reposted the list/pool. Look how many people were wrong - including me.

In as much as most people will not imagine that the changes to come will
take as long as as the will likely take, the net effect will be
potential Hams sitting and waiting for the Morse code to go away.

Maybe some will. I think most interested folks will simply learn enough to
pass the tests and get on with it.

Its certainly what I would do if I were thinking about getting a
license at this point.

But it's not what you did when you got started.

Some things operating there.

There was no code elimination horizon.

Sure there was. NCI was pushing for it, weren't they? WRC 2003 was on the way.

I'm skeptical enough and have enough experience that I knew it was going
to be a long time coming

I wanted to get on HF pretty badly.

I'm not afraid of learning something (even though it was admittedly very
hard for me)

You are not alone. Or even rare, despite what some naysayers would have us
believe.

And would you not get *any* license until the code test went away, or would
you just hold off from upgrading?

Hard to say. When I originally got my license, I was only planning on
being a Technician, and I was thinking about how to apply Amateur radio
to my other hobby, Amateur astronomy. I really didn't have much interest
in HF at all! then after a field day where I was allowed to operate, I
was hooked. So my experience is likely not typical.

I disagree!

A lot of new hams come into amateur radio by such indirect routes. In my youth,
many hams came from the ranks of SWLs.

In fact, if it
wasn't for the Technician no-code license, I probably wouldn't be a Ham
now. (to my great loss!!)

See? You would have just held off upgrading.

But we don't see that happening. The total number of Tech and Tech Pluses is
declining.

Whatever is done should be done and done quickly. That said, there is a
mile of difference between "should" and "will". I still stand by my
original prediction made some time ago.

Back in 1989-1990 we were told that a nocodetest ham license was
"absolutely
needed for growth". And when it became a reality, we got some short-term
growth
for a few years.

Then we were told that the code test had to go for the same reason - and it
was
dropped to 5 wpm for all classes in 2000. We got some short-term growth for
a
few years - now we're back *below* the level before the restructuring.

It isn't the code or lack of it. It is the limbo state of not knowing
what is going to happen.

I don't think changes will make for growth, except in the short term.

I think it's lack of publicity, plus competition from other activities, plus
the loss of "honeydew hams" to cell phones and FRS/GMRS. Plus antenna
limitations, RFI, ...

I was a ham way back in 1967, when they said incentive licensing would
"kill
amateur radio". There were about 250,000 US hams back then. Yet in the 10
years
after incentive licensing took full effect (1969-1979 or thereabouts) the
number of US hams grew by about 100,000, despite poor economic conditions,
much
less accessible testing, waiting period for Extra, no code waivers and a
code
test for all hams. And no internet or computer-based training methods.

Of course. Way too much emphasis is put on all the modern conveniences

and the numbers of Hams.

A lot of folks are looking for a challenge, not a giveaway.

I wouldn't care if I had to take the test,
writing on the back of a shovel with a piece of limestone, while Heidi
Klum was trying to distract me. How's that for working her into the
thread! ;^)

In my case it was Heidi and Jan Smithers fighting over me....

Jim, do you still have those dates?

Posted in a new thread.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
William wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
William wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
William wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
William wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
William wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:

btw, thinking of departed rrap folk, it occurred to me that I probably hold the
record for most rrapper's QSO'd. Anybody beat this list?:

K8MN
W4NTI
K0HB
AC6XG
K3LT
K4YZ
W3RV
W6RCA
W0EX
WA2SI

73 de Jim, N2EY

I think you have the record. I've worked four from the list and you.

Dave K8MN

You've worked me a couple of times.

I worked you as K8MN? Nope, not even on SSB. NIL.

Then it must have been another David Heil or a slim with the same name
and QSL manager. Sorry to have mentioned it.

I do not and have not used a QSL manager for my operations as K8MN.

Who is K8MN? I'm talking about David Heil. Ever heard of him? Does
he use a QSL Manager?

Your cutesy-stupid routine can run only so long, "William".

Hello???

Hello, yourself. Any ideas yet on the mystery question: "Who is K8MN"?

Yes. He's a jerk.

I'm certain that it appears that way to a guy such as yourself. Yet you
asked, "Who is K8MN?"

Is that anything like your cutesy-stupid "CQ Magazine as a Membership
Organization" routine?

Maybe you can explain another way that to "rejoin" CQ Magazine.

So you're going to run your cutesy-stupid routine into the ground?

"Strike Twoooo"

Hi, hi!

There is what you write and then there is what you think you write.

Take your time in digesting the material. Soak it all up. Absorb it.

No thanks. Your material is toxic.

It really just makes you feel weak until all of your "cutesy-stupid
genes" have been altered.

Ooooh. How long did it take you?

To write it? Not very long.

I've never sent a "David Heil" QSL.

Given that you have a QSL Manager, I suppose that is possible.

Never one, with or without a QSL manager. Have you sent QSL's using
your name rather than a callsign?

Do your cards not have you name on them?

Sure they do, in small letters. Nobody QSOs "Dave Heil", they work
"K8MN" or "5H3US". "A W4MPY QSL" is also printed on my QSL cards too.
I'm sure that nobody is under the impression that they have worked
"W4MPY".

Just by coincidence, my QSL cards have both my name and my callsign on
them!

There's a step in the right direction. I'm happy for you.

Plus the other usual stuff like my address, county, grid square, etc.

You're coming right along.

All my operations have taken place
from a given spot with a given callsign.

Try mobile operation sometime, Oh Greatest of Hams!

I do that about five days per week. "K8MN/M, Marshall County, West
Virginia" or "K8MN/mobile, Belmont County, Ohio" or "K8MN/mobile in
Wheeling, West Virginia" all work just fine.

Then you shouldn't give misleading information such as, "All my
operations have taken place from a given spot..."

It isn't misleading at all. At any point in any QSO, I'm in a given
spot.
Sometimes the car is moving. Sometimes it is not. Stick around and all
these great mysteries will be revealed.

Another ham on rrap would have called you a liar for that.

No other did. You've as much as done so though.

How about a lengthy yarn about your operation as T5/Brian?

How about a ditty on "how to" on snagging rare, out-of-band, French
Hams on 6M?

I've never operated using my name as a callsign.

I couldn't imagine it. Who would do that?

From your recent posts, I rather imagined that you might.

My operations from any
country on any band, when working any Frenchmen have been totally within
regulations of the applicable governing authority.

Good thing, too.

Yeah, I think it is a good thing. I heed the regulations of the country
in which I operate. It is up to other ops to do the same. None of
those involved is responsible to you.

Sheesh! I think you are more indignant about working me on HF than
you were about me leaving you off of the A1A Op list. Doesn't matter.
You'll always find something to become indignant about.

There is no A1A Op list. You screwed up when you first posted the
material. You told untruths

I made a mistake.

You made several.

when you recently brought up the topic. You
acted as if you didn't believe I could unearth the original post (that
must've cost me ten or twenty seconds) and you've gotten the name of the
club wrong now.

No. I think I my original premise was right. Some amateurs are nice
guys and deserve to be on that list.

An interesting thing about that: You don't get to decide that. Two ops
who are members decide that.

Then there are others who are
jerks and shouldn't be on that list.

You don't get to decide that. Two ops who are members decide that.

How you got on it is a mystery
to me,

I can understand that. I'm sure that a number of things are a mystery
to you.

but I do stand corrected. You did get on the list somehow.

Two ops who are members nominate someone. That is the only way to
become an A-1 Op. Perhaps you should read the qualifications for
membership.
I don't think you'll find anything about suffering fools gladly in
usenet.

Being indignant has naught to do with it. Keeping you
honest has been the problem.

Your cutesy-stupid routine and acting indignant is wearing a little
thin.

Aren't you getting tired of picking up that chip and putting it back on
your shoulder?

Best of Luck.

Your words drip with insincerity.

Dave K8MN

So sorry.

David Heil worked me on two different occassions.

Am I to understand that you are not David Heil?

If not, I apologize for a case of mistaken identity.

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


N2EY wrote:


In article , Mike Coslo
writes:



I think that the numbers of hams will continue to
decrease until we are taken out of the limbo we have been in for some
time now.



What "limbo", Mike? We've had a class of US ham license with no code test
for
more than 13-1/2 years now. The maximum code test speed has been 5 wpm

for more

than 4 years now - and for a decade before that, medical waivers were
available.

Limbo is when a prospective ham thinks that possibly he or she can get
on HF simply by waiting a few months and not having to take any Morse
code test.


OK. But would that really keep a lot of folks from getting any license at all?

It would seem to me that the sensible thing to do in that situation, were
someone that averse to the 5 wpm code test, would be to pass the Tech and
General writtens. Maybe toss in the Extra written too. They'd have a Tech
license and General and/or Extra CSCE. Then, when the code test went away,
they'd be all set to go. Spend the waiting time setting up a station, antenna,
etc.

It might seem sensible to you or me, but I don't think that all that
many people think that way. Of course, they would also have to know
about CSCE's too. I didn't know about them until I flunked my first
Morse code test.

And I'm not certain that the CSCE will apply to the new licensing
scheme. And of course, the year and a day might (probably, in my
opinion) pass before the new testing regimen takes effect, in which case
you will have to take the tests again, and will have wasted the money on
the old tests.


Let's compare the situation to when the Governor of PA had the temporary
tax exemption on computers. I think it lasted something like a week.
Guess what happened to computer sales at the local Circuit City, Best
Buy, etc. the week or two before the exemption. When I went in and
looked around, the sales clerk at one store even told me to hold off
until next week.

Seems like a direct comparison to me.


Not really. We *knew* the tax exemption was coming, and it was only a week or
two away. And we knew the exemption would only last a week or so.

Specific dates aren't the issue, at least with what I am trying to say.
Its the concept of the thing. If you only wait for a while (the Morse
code requirement goes away, or the tax is suspended) you will get (the
amateur radio license or the computer) for a lot (less effort or less money)

My statement is that some people will wait for reduced entry
requirements. Most people think change happens quickly. SO they say "I
will wait". Then chaneg doesn't occur in a short time. Then they lose
interest and go away without ever becoming a Ham.

And I don't completely buy that the person who does this wasn't *really*
interested. I only recently became a Ham - around 5 years now. I had no
real interest in many of the things that Hams do when I got started. I
discovered the joys only after some time had passed.

Now I'm a member of the BOD at our local club. I was Field day chairman
this past year. I control op the club station during the big QSO party
of the fall. I'm at every public service event we have. And I am
starting to organize a NSS project in PA (wanna join in?)

Not too shabby for an "mildly interested" peron, eh?

It made sense for folks who were contemplating a computer purchase to simply
wait a week or two.

As it might make sense to some people to wait before getting their
licenses.

Here in southeast PA, some folks simply drive to Delaware for big taxable
purchases that are easily portable. Computers, hamgear, cameras, etc. The big
question is whether the savings offset the driving cost.

Yet our businesses survive.

No doubt, but aren't we straying a bit here?


The code test may or may not go away in the next few years/months/decades.
The
written exams may change similarly. The various bands may change as well.

I don't think that's the problem.


The prospective amateur has *no* idea at this time if the Morse code
requirement will be kept, how long it will be kept if it is, and when it
will go away if it is discarded.



So? Someone who really wants to be a ham will do what is necessary to pass
the tests at the time.

I'd temper that. If I thought that the Morse requirement would go away
in say, 6 months, I would have waited.


Sure - but that's if you knew for sure. At this point we don't even have an
NPRM.

ARRL predicted 2 years. It's been over 14 months since WRC 2003 ended.


And most people do not expect a long time to pass before it goes away.
I know some people were incredulous when I gave my time to expiry (if
any) in that pool we had a while back.


I reposted the list/pool. Look how many people were wrong - including me.


In as much as most people will not imagine that the changes to come will
take as long as as the will likely take, the net effect will be
potential Hams sitting and waiting for the Morse code to go away.



Maybe some will. I think most interested folks will simply learn enough to
pass the tests and get on with it.



Its certainly what I would do if I were thinking about getting a
license at this point.



But it's not what you did when you got started.


Some things operating there.

There was no code elimination horizon.


Sure there was. NCI was pushing for it, weren't they? WRC 2003 was on the way.

Well, yeah. Remember that you are posting from the point of view of
knowing a *lot* of details. When I was a Technician, I had heard of NCI.
But I didn't know what a "WRC" was. Takes a while to assimilate all that
knowledge.

And I did know enough that it was a real requirement, so just the NCI
pushing for code elimination didn't hold any sway for me.


I'm skeptical enough and have enough experience that I knew it was going
to be a long time coming

I wanted to get on HF pretty badly.

I'm not afraid of learning something (even though it was admittedly very
hard for me)


You are not alone. Or even rare, despite what some naysayers would have us
believe.


And would you not get *any* license until the code test went away, or would
you just hold off from upgrading?

Hard to say. When I originally got my license, I was only planning on
being a Technician, and I was thinking about how to apply Amateur radio
to my other hobby, Amateur astronomy. I really didn't have much interest
in HF at all! then after a field day where I was allowed to operate, I
was hooked. So my experience is likely not typical.


I disagree!

A lot of new hams come into amateur radio by such indirect routes. In my youth,
many hams came from the ranks of SWLs.


In fact, if it
wasn't for the Technician no-code license, I probably wouldn't be a Ham
now. (to my great loss!!)

See? You would have just held off upgrading.

But we don't see that happening. The total number of Tech and Tech Pluses is
declining.


Whatever is done should be done and done quickly. That said, there is a
mile of difference between "should" and "will". I still stand by my
original prediction made some time ago.



Back in 1989-1990 we were told that a nocodetest ham license was
"absolutely
needed for growth". And when it became a reality, we got some short-term
growth
for a few years.

Then we were told that the code test had to go for the same reason - and it
was
dropped to 5 wpm for all classes in 2000. We got some short-term growth for
a
few years - now we're back *below* the level before the restructuring.

It isn't the code or lack of it. It is the limbo state of not knowing
what is going to happen.

I don't think changes will make for growth, except in the short term.


I think it's lack of publicity, plus competition from other activities, plus
the loss of "honeydew hams" to cell phones and FRS/GMRS. Plus antenna
limitations, RFI, ...


I was a ham way back in 1967, when they said incentive licensing would
"kill
amateur radio". There were about 250,000 US hams back then. Yet in the 10
years
after incentive licensing took full effect (1969-1979 or thereabouts) the
number of US hams grew by about 100,000, despite poor economic conditions,
much
less accessible testing, waiting period for Extra, no code waivers and a
code
test for all hams. And no internet or computer-based training methods.

Of course. Way too much emphasis is put on all the modern conveniences


and the numbers of Hams.


A lot of folks are looking for a challenge, not a giveaway.

Oh yeah, that NSS project I'm trying to put together should be a
challenge. (wanna join up?)


I wouldn't care if I had to take the test,
writing on the back of a shovel with a piece of limestone, while Heidi
Klum was trying to distract me. How's that for working her into the
thread! ;^)


In my case it was Heidi and Jan Smithers fighting over me....

hmmm, I might purposely flunk just so I could retest (is there any
limit on how many tests you can take??


Jim, do you still have those dates?


Posted in a new thread.

Okay, thanks.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
[snip]
And I'm not certain that the CSCE will apply to the new licensing
scheme. And of course, the year and a day might (probably, in my
opinion) pass before the new testing regimen takes effect, in which case
you will have to take the tests again, and will have wasted the money on
the old tests.



FYI. The CSCE is NOT good for a year. It is good for 365 days so leap
years have occasionally caused people problems. For example if you tested
on March 30, 1999 then it expired on March 29, 2000 since February of 2000
had 29 days not 28.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Subject: ARS License Numbers
From: (William)
Date: 9/18/2004 4:59 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

Sorry if it irritates or otherwise annoys you, but that's the price
you
pay for "freedom of speech"...Having to also endure others "free speech",
whether you like it or not.

Yes, you do irritate and annoy me. You are like that; an annoyance
and irritant. Like a bug. Jim much less so. He actually has
something to say on occassion.

Well then, you FINALLY are getting the point.

You're irritating too. But for different reasons.

I irritate you because I refuse to take your mistruths and deceit.

But you go beyond irritance and annoyance. You make references to
homosexuality and pedophilia, and pseudo-threaten bricks/windows and
slashes/tires and terrorist acts on wives.

Quoting out of context again for that "slam-dunk" effect...

You're a Peach.

I prefer apples and strawberries, actually.

A Gem.

Cubic Zhirconium, perhaps.

A true Ambassador of Amateur Radio.

When I am participating in Amateur Radio, I am.

You would make Riley proud.

He's never had to send me "pink slip", Brian, so why wouldn't I...???

Ham of the Year material.

As opposed to someone who lies about what a big DX operator he is...?!?!
Maybe so, but I doubt it.

So when I asked, "Jim, when did we lose the code test?" you felt
compelled to answer as if you were Jim?

Did I sign my post "N2EY"...? Did I say I was Jim?

But you answered incorrectly. We still have a code exam. Jim could
have told you that since he is incapable of lying (he knows he'll burn
in hell for lying, and you know you're already in hell, so what's the
diff?).

I am in hell?

I don't think so...Thankfully I wake up next to W5AMY...Not YOU.

And I keep telling Jim that you cannot help yourself from having to
respond to every posting, but he doesn't believe it. Yet you prove it
over and over again! And he doesn't believe it. No matter how many
times you prove it over and over again, he just doesn't believe it.

Why should he?

It's not true.

It wasn't true yesterday, and it's not true today.

I do not respond to "every posting"...Not yours, Not Lennie's, not Jim's
nor anyone elses.

You have uttered yet ANOTHER mistruth.

I think the both of you are dysfunctional.

Why?

Because we challenge your frequent errors and omissions?

Loggins and Messina got it right, "Twin Brothers of Insane Mothers."

Best of Luck.

No luck needed here, Brian.

You're still wrong, and no amount of hand-wringing is going to rid you of
your errors.

Sucks to be you.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: ARS License Numbers
From: (William)
Date: 9/19/2004 7:57 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Brian Kelly) wrote in message
.com...


Date/time/freq pse?

QSL?

w3rv

Kelly, I owe you no QSO. bb

Hey Brian (W3RV)...nickle says he CAN'T. He might get on there, have a
good time, and then realize just how wrong he'd been all along.

Then he'd not be able to sleep at night worrying about what Lennie thought
of him.

73

Steve, K4YZ