"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
snip
The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own
ignorance.

The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.

Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.

I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as being
an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the operations -
there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious conversations,
there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and information
exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of
"brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators.

What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is completely
alien from any other activity?

Ignorance would be to
assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of
his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio.

This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even very
similar activities.

snip

In article , "Mark Little"
writes:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
snip
The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own
ignorance.

The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.

Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.

I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as being
an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the operations -
there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious conversations,
there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and information
exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of
"brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators.

What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is completely
alien from any other activity?

Dave got his opinions beamed down from the Mother Ship by aliens?

Ignorance would be to
assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of
his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio.

This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even very
similar activities.

It is VERY important to use PROPER PROCEDURE in all ham activity.

When hacking Western Union on the NTS, one MUST use the official
authorized radiogram forms. Net users may lose their jobs if the
official proper form is not used. All five of them.

Never at any time may other radio services' jargon, expressions, or any
other words except as officially permitted by league guides be used on
or off the air by devout amateurs. "Roger that" and "ten-four" phrases
are punishable by excommunication of any communication. The normal
penance is 100 Hail-Hirams and "sin no more" exhortations.

Proper civil courtesy on the air is to give everyone a "599" report, even
if asking for repeats due to local noise. On 'phone all have superb
diction and are perfectly understandable...always.

All amateur radios operate by laws of the league, not the laws of physics.
Correct procedure is to always consult a Handbook, never any textbook
about other radio services' equipment. Amateur radios do not work by
such non-applicable laws. Only league books have official information.

The "amateur community" always rules on dedication and committment
of all. Except for the Extras who are above criticsm and gods of radio.

All amateurs not expressing love, honor, and obeyance of morse code
are bottom-feeding slime and shall always be treated as inferior trash
not even worthy of contempt.

There, I guess this sums it up fairly well... :-)

LHA / WMD

The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is
false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own
ignorance.

Huh ???? I better get another beer to figure out this one .... just who is
non-rational here ???? I haven't figured this one out yet. My idea of
amateur radio is a deversion from my daily routine. I do not live by it or
for it. It is my desire that all involved in the hobby-service-passion what
ever have a good time in fellowship.


The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.

Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get
a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.

OK by your argument then lets say sex ..... but your definition of "real
feel" and what I say is normal may differ.

Take care 73 KI3R Tom Popovic Belle Vernon Pa.

Enjoying ham radio for what it is to me ..not what others perceive it or
wish it to be.

"garigue" wrote in message
news:zgAXb.313140$xy6.1534723@attbi_s02...

The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is
false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own
ignorance.

Huh ???? I better get another beer to figure out this one .... just who
is
non-rational here ???? I haven't figured this one out yet. My idea of
amateur radio is a deversion from my daily routine. I do not live by it
or
for it. It is my desire that all involved in the hobby-service-passion
what
ever have a good time in fellowship.


The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.

Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot
get
a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.

OK by your argument then lets say sex ..... but your definition of "real
feel" and what I say is normal may differ.

By taking this tack, even a licenced Amateur would not be able to get a
"real feel" as it is just about 100% certain that they will have different
interests and priorities than you.

I take a less metaphysical approach to "real feel". I mean it is relatively
easy to determine what Amateurs do and there are plenty of related things
(CB & marine radio, electronics kits, regulations, chat rooms, phones, etc)
so that a person could reasonably be expected to be about to judge whether
this would be interesting - before they went to the effort of getting a
licence.

Take care 73 KI3R Tom Popovic Belle Vernon Pa.

Enjoying ham radio for what it is to me ..not what others perceive it or
wish it to be.

As it should be, but that does not prevent unlicenced people from knowing
what the hobby is about. Whether they would enjoy those activities is a
matter of personality, not of holding a licence.

regards,
Mark

By taking this tack, even a licenced Amateur would not be able to get a
"real feel" as it is just about 100% certain that they will have different
interests and priorities than you.

As well it should be ... the hobby-service-what ever has a wealth of
deversity to offer but in the context of amateur radio. Any thing else for
the non-professional radio affecionado unless he has a ticket would by
defination not be amateur radio. Am I "dissing" those who don't have the
exalted ticket? Nope .. I knew a fellow who could copy 45 WPM and never had
a ticket but loved to listen to high speed CW on the ham bands. He said he
would rather be a SWLer ..and this guy never was a military or commercial
op.

I take a less metaphysical approach to "real feel". I mean it is
relatively
easy to determine what Amateurs do

Not really ...not that is is such a big deal but I find you are falling into
the trap that a lot of our "expert" hams out there fall into ....that is one
of projection of one's knowledge to another. I really read with a chuckle
those who say the test is too easy .. a give away. Again prospective. The
guy or gal who is just starting out with no basis is overwhelmed and needs
support with the simple things. I see this time and time again with our
club's yearly no-code classes.


and there are plenty of related things
(CB & marine radio, electronics kits, regulations, chat rooms, phones,
etc)
so that a person could reasonably be expected to be about to judge whether
this would be interesting - before they went to the effort of getting a
licence.

But they have choosen the unique experience of amateur radio.



As it should be, but that does not prevent unlicenced people from knowing
what the hobby is about. Whether they would enjoy those activities is a
matter of personality, not of holding a licence.

Maybe knowing "about" but really knowing with some sort of "real feeling"
......doubtful . Mater of personality ... boy have I known some personalitie
s in "hamdom" ... I can't say that there is a dominate personality ham type.

Take care Mark ...73 Tom Popovic KI3R

It is VERY important to use PROPER PROCEDURE in all ham activity.

Sort of like driving in the right lane so as to maximize everyone's
enjoyment .... reduce frustration etc.

When hacking Western Union on the NTS, one MUST use the official
authorized radiogram forms. Net users may lose their jobs if the
official proper form is not used. All five of them.

Whatever floats one's boat ...again not my call on what I define as
enjoyment. Passing traffic ... not for me personally.

Never at any time may other radio services' jargon, expressions, or any
other words except as officially permitted by league guides be used on
or off the air by devout amateurs. "Roger that" and "ten-four" phrases
are punishable by excommunication of any communication. The normal
penance is 100 Hail-Hirams and "sin no more" exhortations.

Better watch it Len ...Hiram is listening ...

Proper civil courtesy on the air is to give everyone a "599" report,
even

......during contests where all signals are 599 due to the ruler of the
ionosphere making it so ...could never figure out this one ...but again I
could never figure out contests but again whatever floats one's boat ...have
a good time.


if asking for repeats due to local noise. On 'phone all have superb
diction and are perfectly understandable...always.

Len ...I have to get the receiver you are using and that DSP mode for
diction control ...from what I have heard ..we could sure use it .

All amateur radios operate by laws of the league, not the laws of
physics.
Correct procedure is to always consult a Handbook, never any textbook
about other radio services' equipment. Amateur radios do not work by
such non-applicable laws. Only league books have official information.

Ah Len com'on ...thats a stretch even tounge in cheekedly ...besides how do
you expect the league to make money? BTW are you a Diamond Club member yet
.... for a couple grand you can get a discount on all league publications.
That should pay for itself in a millenium or 2.

The "amateur community" always rules on dedication and committment
of all. Except for the Extras who are above criticsm and gods of
radio.

Len you need to talk to my wife ...she dosen't think so. I have heard her
use a phrase containing God in reference to my radio as in get off that ***
**** radio and do some work around here.

All amateurs not expressing love, honor, and obeyance of morse code
are bottom-feeding slime and shall always be treated as inferior trash
not even worthy of contempt.

Naa not really ... but they are missing out on one tool in the box of ham
radio.

There, I guess this sums it up fairly well... :-)

eehhh ..... maybe
LHA / WMD

Take care Len ..73 KI3R Tom

In article , "Mark Little"
writes:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
snip
The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own
ignorance.

The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.

Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.

The question, then, is "what is a similar thing?"

What would be similar to, say:

- having a baby
- running a marathon
- playing a musical instrument really well

(others are invited to add to the list)

I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as being
an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the operations -
there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious conversations,
there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and information
exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of
"brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators.

There are also big differences.

What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is completely
alien from any other activity?

Several things:

1) Hams have a level of freedom pretty much unmatched in other services. Wide
variety of modes, bands, technologies, and activities. No channelization or
requirement to use certain types of equipment.

2) Hams are almost all self-funded and noncommercial, using their own equipment
on their own time.

3) [this it the really big one] Amateur radio is, at its core, radio
communication for its own sake. To other services, radio is but a means to an
end, but to hams the medium really is a big part of the message. Or to put it
another way, the ham's journey is as important, if not more important, than the
destination.

This is why certain things from other services don't apply to hams.

The person watching TV usually doesn't care how the signal gets to the set -
VHF, UHF, terrestrical, satellite, analog, digital, cable, fiber, whatever. All
the TV viewer cares about is how good the picture, sound and program are.

The military communications folks don't care how the messages are carried, just
so the messages get where they need to be, when they need to be there, without
the bad guys knowing about them.

Do you know or care how your email and postings get to and from your computer?
If you're like 99.99% of the online population, it's not an issue as long as it
happens.

Heck, many if not most cellphone users don't even think in terms of "radio" -
the cellphone to them is a telephone without wires, that's all. (In fact I have
had people tell me that a cellphone is *not* a radio!)

The radio amateur does radio, for the most part, for purely emotional reasons.
IOW, because it's fun, rewarding, challenging, educating, etc. "Radio for it's
own sake".

This is why modes like Morse code, AM voice and Baudot FSK RTTY continue in use
in amateur radio. Hams like them. They're fun, and they work.

Ignorance would be to
assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of
his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio.

This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even very
similar activities.

And some very big differences. Much of what is done in other radio services
does not transfer to amateur radio at all. For example, every other radio
service I know of seeks to eliminate the need for a skill in the operation of
the radio equipment. They think in terms of "user", not "radio operator". And
given their constraints, it may make sense to do so, because it is usually less
expensive to buy sophisticated equipment than to pay a skilled radio operator.
But to hams, radio operating skill is the whole point.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Mark Little"

writes:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
snip
The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is
false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own
ignorance.

The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.

Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get
a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.

The question, then, is "what is a similar thing?"

What would be similar to, say:

- having a baby
According to a woman I know, passing a kidney stone. She has done both so is
probably in a good situation to know. I will take that one on faith as
neither seems that appealing.

- running a marathon
"Hitting the wall" and the physical tribulations associated with a marathon
are not limited to running. If you have done other activities that stress
the body, then you are in a position to get the "feel". In my case, that is
just running to the end of the street. ;-)

- playing a musical instrument really well
Anyone who has had to practice long and hard to achieve any hand skill will
know the satisfaction that comes with doing something well. I can't play the
guitar "really well", but I think it is safe to say I have a feel for what
it would be like to be able to do so.

(others are invited to add to the list)
Jumping off a cliff - Never done it, but I have a good feel for what
happens - At the bottom, you go splattt!!!!!

I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as
being
an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the
operations -
there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious
conversations,
there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and
information
exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of
"brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators.

There are also big differences.

What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is
completely
alien from any other activity?

Several things:

1) Hams have a level of freedom pretty much unmatched in other services.
Wide
variety of modes, bands, technologies, and activities. No channelization
or
requirement to use certain types of equipment.

I suggest that you look at the FCC page and search for "experimental
licence". These couple of snippets may be of interest to show its breadth:

"Any person or entity--corporation, individual, etc. that is not a foreign
government or representative of a foreign government may obtain an
experimental license."

"Any frequency allocated to non-Government or Government use in the Table
of Frequency Allocations may be assigned under the Experimental Radio
Service, except frequencies exclusively allocated to the passive services."

Use of non-approved equipment is also permitted with this licence.

2) Hams are almost all self-funded and noncommercial, using their own
equipment
on their own time.

Agreed, but again this is not unique. Plenty of people including CB
operators and pleasure marine radio operators in the same boat (pun
intended).

3) [this it the really big one] Amateur radio is, at its core, radio
communication for its own sake. To other services, radio is but a means to
an
end, but to hams the medium really is a big part of the message. Or to put
it
another way, the ham's journey is as important, if not more important,
than the
destination.

You are incorrect to assert that the medium is not important to others,
especially in the scientific community. Radio propagation research by
definition is interested in the medium.

It is also misleading to imply that the majority of Amateur have the medium
as the primary focus of their activities. The majority of Amateurs use
commercial equipment and spend the majority of their time chin-wagging. From
their conversations, it is obvious that the conversation is more import than
the medium.

This is why certain things from other services don't apply to hams.

The person watching TV usually doesn't care how the signal gets to the
set -
VHF, UHF, terrestrical, satellite, analog, digital, cable, fiber,
whatever. All
the TV viewer cares about is how good the picture, sound and program are.

While the person who watches TV may have no idea how it works, there is a
complete army of people behind that tube that do know how it works and why
it works. If one were to subtract the number of hams who cannot even fix a
simple fault in their commerical rig, the odds would not be much different.

The military communications folks don't care how the messages are carried,
just
so the messages get where they need to be, when they need to be there,
without
the bad guys knowing about them.

I'll bet its fair to say that most Amateurs do not understand how Packet,
PACTOR or even just their rigs work. They simply plug in the boxes and off
they go.

Do you know or care how your email and postings get to and from your
computer?

Actually, I do as I run my own servers.

If you're like 99.99% of the online population, it's not an issue as long
as it
happens.

This is also the case for many Amateurs. Most would not know how their
current rig works and they would neither have the expertise or equipment to
find anything but the most trivial of faults.

Heck, many if not most cellphone users don't even think in terms of
"radio" -
the cellphone to them is a telephone without wires, that's all. (In fact I
have
had people tell me that a cellphone is *not* a radio!)

As I said most Amateurs don't know how packet works or even how their Yaesu
works. Under this defintion, most Amateurs aren't amateurs either. If one
goes into particular instances, I've fixed radios for more than one full
call that could not find that the battery wire had broken. Such anecdotes
may be amusing, but have little value in the big picture.

The radio amateur does radio, for the most part, for purely emotional
reasons.
IOW, because it's fun, rewarding, challenging, educating, etc. "Radio for
it's
own sake".

Certainly in the area I work, I have seen the scientists knock back very
large amounts of money because it didn't have a research component that they
found "fun, rewarding, challenging, educating, etc."

This is why modes like Morse code, AM voice and Baudot FSK RTTY continue
in use
in amateur radio. Hams like them. They're fun, and they work.

Morse - still used commercially, in the forces and aviation (ident calls).
AM voice - still used in broadcasting.
FSK RTTY - still used as anyone with a communications rig can tell you.

None of these are unique to AR.

There is no doubt that these modes work and "fun" to some people. This is
true even if you are a commercial operator. There are plenty of people who
actually enjoy their work.

BTW, not all hams like these modes. Many people don't like Morse, many also
don't like AM because of its bandwidth, especially in the lower bands and
most Amateurs don't use RTTY with or without the clunking teleprinter.

Ignorance would be to
assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of
his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio.

This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even
very
similar activities.

And some very big differences. Much of what is done in other radio
services
does not transfer to amateur radio at all. For example, every other radio
service I know of seeks to eliminate the need for a skill in the operation
of
the radio equipment. They think in terms of "user", not "radio operator".
And
given their constraints, it may make sense to do so, because it is usually
less
expensive to buy sophisticated equipment than to pay a skilled radio
operator.

How many Amateurs still neutralise their power amplifiers? No many. Why?
Because they have decided to buy (in most cases not build) more
sophisticated equipment that reduces the skill required to operate the
radio. There is no difference. I don't know too many Amateurs who go to buy
a rig and want the one that is the hardest to use.

But to hams, radio operating skill is the whole point.

Unsustainable if you listen to the bands. Most people do not even comply
with the statuatory requirements for identification, let alone push the
envelope of operating skills.

Are you suggesting that randomly monitoring the Amateur Bands for a few
hours would show a very high level of operating skill? I wouldn't bet the
farm on that one, would you?

As I said, AR is by no means "unique" in what it provides and there are many
people in the radio field, even if they don't hold an AR licence that would
have a "really good feel" of what the Amateur Serice is all about bases on
their other experiences.

It concerns me when Amateurs attempt to tell others that AR is "unique" and
that a non-amateur could never underestand what it is all about, because all
it does is reduce credibilty.


Mark


73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , "Mark Little"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Mark Little"

writes:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
snip
The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is
false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own
ignorance.

The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.

Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get
a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.

The question, then, is "what is a similar thing?"

What would be similar to, say:

- having a baby
According to a woman I know, passing a kidney stone. She has done both so is
probably in a good situation to know. I will take that one on faith as
neither seems that appealing.

Those two are similar only in the pain experienced and the relief when it's
over.
But the joy of a new baby is not part of the kidney stone episode.

- running a marathon
"Hitting the wall" and the physical tribulations associated with a marathon
are not limited to running. If you have done other activities that stress
the body, then you are in a position to get the "feel". In my case, that is
just running to the end of the street. ;-)

There's a lot more to the marathon than "hitting the wall", which doesn't
happen
to all marathoners anyway. (I've run two marathons and numerous shorter races,
btw)

- playing a musical instrument really well
Anyone who has had to practice long and hard to achieve any hand skill will
know the satisfaction that comes with doing something well. I can't play the
guitar "really well", but I think it is safe to say I have a feel for what
it would be like to be able to do so.

So playing a guitar well is similar to playing a guitar really well...

(others are invited to add to the list)
Jumping off a cliff - Never done it, but I have a good feel for what
happens - At the bottom, you go splattt!!!!!

HAW!

I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as
being
an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the
operations -
there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious
conversations,
there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and
information
exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of
"brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators.

There are also big differences.

What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is
completely
alien from any other activity?

Several things:

1) Hams have a level of freedom pretty much unmatched in other services.
Wide
variety of modes, bands, technologies, and activities. No channelization
or
requirement to use certain types of equipment.

I suggest that you look at the FCC page and search for "experimental
licence". These couple of snippets may be of interest to show its breadth:

"Any person or entity--corporation, individual, etc. that is not a foreign
government or representative of a foreign government may obtain an
experimental license."

"Any frequency allocated to non-Government or Government use in the Table
of Frequency Allocations may be assigned under the Experimental Radio
Service, except frequencies exclusively allocated to the passive services."

Use of non-approved equipment is also permitted with this licence.

Not the same thing! Each experimental license is granted for a specific
purpose,
isn't it? The applicant has to make application for a specific reason, not
general
experimentation, and the license is limited to the specific experimentation
applied for.
It's not a general-purpose thing like a ham license.

How many experimental licenses are currently issued by FCC? There are over
682,000
US ham licenses issued to individuals.

How many new experimental licenses were issued by FCC last year? FCC issued
over 20,000 new ham licenses in 2003.

2) Hams are almost all self-funded and noncommercial, using their own
equipment on their own time.

Agreed, but again this is not unique. Plenty of people including CB
operators and pleasure marine radio operators in the same boat (pun
intended).

Those services are not about "radio for its own sake" and allow only a very
limited choice of channels and modes.

3) [this it the really big one] Amateur radio is, at its core, radio
communication for its own sake. To other services, radio is but a means to
an end, but to hams the medium really is a big part of the message. Or to
put
it another way, the ham's journey is as important, if not more important,
than the destination.

You are incorrect to assert that the medium is not important to others,
especially in the scientific community. Radio propagation research by
definition is interested in the medium.

Only to find out how it works.

It is also misleading to imply that the majority of Amateur have the medium
as the primary focus of their activities. The majority of Amateurs use
commercial equipment and spend the majority of their time chin-wagging.
From their conversations, it is obvious that the conversation is more import
than
the medium.

If that were true, most of those conversations would have moved to other means
of communication long ago.

This is why certain things from other services don't apply to hams.

The person watching TV usually doesn't care how the signal gets to the
set - VHF, UHF, terrestrical, satellite, analog, digital, cable, fiber,
whatever. All
the TV viewer cares about is how good the picture, sound and program are.

While the person who watches TV may have no idea how it works, there is a
complete army of people behind that tube that do know how it works and why
it works.

That's true, but it's not the point. The TV viewer and the ham are both the
"end users",
but it makes no difference to the TV viewer whether the program got to him/her
by radio,
wire, etc. There *is* a difference to the ham whether the QSO is by radio or
landline.

If one were to subtract the number of hams who cannot even fix a
simple fault in their commerical rig, the odds would not be much different.

That's not the "how" I was referring to. A ham cares that it's "communication
by radio" - the TV viewer doesn't.

The military communications folks don't care how the messages are carried,
just
so the messages get where they need to be, when they need to be there,
without
the bad guys knowing about them.

I'll bet its fair to say that most Amateurs do not understand how Packet,
PACTOR or even just their rigs work.

I disagree. But that's not the point.

They simply plug in the boxes and off they go.

Again, a ham cares that it's "communication by radio"

Do you know or care how your email and postings get to and from your
computer?

Actually, I do as I run my own servers.

Exception that proves the rule. And once it leaves your servers?

If you're like 99.99% of the online population, it's not an issue as long
as it happens.

This is also the case for many Amateurs. Most would not know how their
current rig works and they would neither have the expertise or equipment to
find anything but the most trivial of faults.

Again, not the point. A ham cares that it's "communication by radio", but most
email users don't care if the medium is wire, fiber, etc.

Heck, many if not most cellphone users don't even think in terms of
"radio" -
the cellphone to them is a telephone without wires, that's all. (In fact I
have had people tell me that a cellphone is *not* a radio!)

As I said most Amateurs don't know how packet works or even how their Yaesu
works.

How do you know that for sure?

Under this defintion, most Amateurs aren't amateurs either. If one
goes into particular instances, I've fixed radios for more than one full
call that could not find that the battery wire had broken. Such anecdotes
may be amusing, but have little value in the big picture.

Point is they at least knew it was a radio.

The radio amateur does radio, for the most part, for purely emotional
reasons.
IOW, because it's fun, rewarding, challenging, educating, etc. "Radio for
it's own sake".

Certainly in the area I work, I have seen the scientists knock back very
large amounts of money because it didn't have a research component that they
found "fun, rewarding, challenging, educating, etc."

But only as an expedient. Not as a rule.

This is why modes like Morse code, AM voice and Baudot FSK RTTY continue
in use in amateur radio. Hams like them. They're fun, and they work.

Morse - still used commercially, in the forces and aviation (ident calls).

Some will argue that point!

AM voice - still used in broadcasting.
FSK RTTY - still used as anyone with a communications rig can tell you.

Baudot! Not just FSK

None of these are unique to AR.

No, they're not. But their choice in other services is driven by considerations
other than what the operators like. That's the point.

There is no doubt that these modes work and "fun" to some people. This is
true even if you are a commercial operator. There are plenty of people who
actually enjoy their work.

Sure, but as a rule they are not the one making the choice.

BTW, not all hams like these modes. Many people don't like Morse, many also
don't like AM because of its bandwidth, especially in the lower bands and
most Amateurs don't use RTTY with or without the clunking teleprinter.

By choice - that's the point!

Ignorance would be to
assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of
his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio.

This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even
very similar activities.

And some very big differences. Much of what is done in other radio
services
does not transfer to amateur radio at all. For example, every other radio
service I know of seeks to eliminate the need for a skill in the operation
of
the radio equipment. They think in terms of "user", not "radio operator".
And
given their constraints, it may make sense to do so, because it is usually
less
expensive to buy sophisticated equipment than to pay a skilled radio
operator.

How many Amateurs still neutralise their power amplifiers?

I do.

No many. Why?
Because they have decided to buy (in most cases not build) more
sophisticated equipment that reduces the skill required to operate the
radio.

I build my ham rigs, either from scratch or kits.

There is no difference.

Yes, there is.

Neutralization is an alignment adjustment, not part of operating the rig.

I don't know too many Amateurs who go to buy
a rig and want the one that is the hardest to use.

Not the point. Modes like ALE and conventions such as channelization have
not had much acceptance in amateur radio, even though very widely used in
other services.

But to hams, radio operating skill is the whole point.

Unsustainable if you listen to the bands.

I do, and that's why I make the observation.

Most people do not even comply
with the statuatory requirements for identification, let alone push the
envelope of operating skills.

Where have you noticed that? I see just the opposite on the bands and modes I
use.

Are you suggesting that randomly monitoring the Amateur Bands for a few
hours would show a very high level of operating skill? I wouldn't bet the
farm on that one, would you?

No, I'm saying that hams value operating skills, even if they don't always have
the highest level of them. Someone who plays a guitar for fun usually values
skill at doing so, even if they're not as good as the guy on the CD.

As I said, AR is by no means "unique" in what it provides and there are many
people in the radio field, even if they don't hold an AR licence that would
have a "really good feel" of what the Amateur Serice is all about bases on
their other experiences.

Maybe. But in general I'd disagree.

It concerns me when Amateurs attempt to tell others that AR is "unique" and
that a non-amateur could never underestand what it is all about, because all
it does is reduce credibilty.

If amateur radio is not unique, why should it exist?

73 de Jim, N2EY

Mark Little wrote:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
snip
The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own
ignorance.

The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.

Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.

Nonsense, yourself. There are plenty of activities which might have
some outward similarities to other things but which are actually quite
different. Hunting with a shotgun is quite different than hunting with
a rifle. Even the aiming technique is very different. Driving the
family sedan on the roads and highways doesn't give one the feel for
Formula One racing. Being a Television station engineer doesn't impart
a feel for how to chase a weak one on 160m.

I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as being
an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the operations -
there are licences,

How tough was the studying for a license for which there is no exam? ;-)

there are regulations,

The regs aren't very much alike, are they? In fact, such point-to-point
channelized communications can only be compared to amateur VHF/UHF FM
operation.

there are serious conversations,
there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and information
exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of
"brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators.

What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is completely
alien from any other activity?

Oh, I can't think of a thing, Mark. Let's allow an artillery officer
who has never hunted game, decide best how game hunting should be
regulated.

Ignorance would be to
assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of
his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio.

This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even very
similar activities.

You can bet there are and if you've read many of Leonard H. Anderson's
posts over the years, you'll find that he doesn't see them.

Dave K8MN