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#261
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"Dave Heil" wrote in message ... snip The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own ignorance. The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood. Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a "real feel" of it by doing similar things. I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as being an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the operations - there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious conversations, there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and information exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of "brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators. What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is completely alien from any other activity? Ignorance would be to assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio. This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even very similar activities. snip |
#262
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#263
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In article , "Mark Little"
writes: "Dave Heil" wrote in message ... snip The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own ignorance. The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood. Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a "real feel" of it by doing similar things. I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as being an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the operations - there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious conversations, there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and information exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of "brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators. What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is completely alien from any other activity? Dave got his opinions beamed down from the Mother Ship by aliens? Ignorance would be to assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio. This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even very similar activities. It is VERY important to use PROPER PROCEDURE in all ham activity. When hacking Western Union on the NTS, one MUST use the official authorized radiogram forms. Net users may lose their jobs if the official proper form is not used. All five of them. Never at any time may other radio services' jargon, expressions, or any other words except as officially permitted by league guides be used on or off the air by devout amateurs. "Roger that" and "ten-four" phrases are punishable by excommunication of any communication. The normal penance is 100 Hail-Hirams and "sin no more" exhortations. Proper civil courtesy on the air is to give everyone a "599" report, even if asking for repeats due to local noise. On 'phone all have superb diction and are perfectly understandable...always. All amateur radios operate by laws of the league, not the laws of physics. Correct procedure is to always consult a Handbook, never any textbook about other radio services' equipment. Amateur radios do not work by such non-applicable laws. Only league books have official information. The "amateur community" always rules on dedication and committment of all. Except for the Extras who are above criticsm and gods of radio. All amateurs not expressing love, honor, and obeyance of morse code are bottom-feeding slime and shall always be treated as inferior trash not even worthy of contempt. There, I guess this sums it up fairly well... :-) LHA / WMD |
#264
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In article , "Mark Little"
writes: "Dave Heil" wrote in message ... snip The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own ignorance. The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood. Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a "real feel" of it by doing similar things. The question, then, is "what is a similar thing?" What would be similar to, say: - having a baby - running a marathon - playing a musical instrument really well (others are invited to add to the list) I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as being an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the operations - there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious conversations, there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and information exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of "brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators. There are also big differences. What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is completely alien from any other activity? Several things: 1) Hams have a level of freedom pretty much unmatched in other services. Wide variety of modes, bands, technologies, and activities. No channelization or requirement to use certain types of equipment. 2) Hams are almost all self-funded and noncommercial, using their own equipment on their own time. 3) [this it the really big one] Amateur radio is, at its core, radio communication for its own sake. To other services, radio is but a means to an end, but to hams the medium really is a big part of the message. Or to put it another way, the ham's journey is as important, if not more important, than the destination. This is why certain things from other services don't apply to hams. The person watching TV usually doesn't care how the signal gets to the set - VHF, UHF, terrestrical, satellite, analog, digital, cable, fiber, whatever. All the TV viewer cares about is how good the picture, sound and program are. The military communications folks don't care how the messages are carried, just so the messages get where they need to be, when they need to be there, without the bad guys knowing about them. Do you know or care how your email and postings get to and from your computer? If you're like 99.99% of the online population, it's not an issue as long as it happens. Heck, many if not most cellphone users don't even think in terms of "radio" - the cellphone to them is a telephone without wires, that's all. (In fact I have had people tell me that a cellphone is *not* a radio!) The radio amateur does radio, for the most part, for purely emotional reasons. IOW, because it's fun, rewarding, challenging, educating, etc. "Radio for it's own sake". This is why modes like Morse code, AM voice and Baudot FSK RTTY continue in use in amateur radio. Hams like them. They're fun, and they work. Ignorance would be to assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio. This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even very similar activities. And some very big differences. Much of what is done in other radio services does not transfer to amateur radio at all. For example, every other radio service I know of seeks to eliminate the need for a skill in the operation of the radio equipment. They think in terms of "user", not "radio operator". And given their constraints, it may make sense to do so, because it is usually less expensive to buy sophisticated equipment than to pay a skilled radio operator. But to hams, radio operating skill is the whole point. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
#265
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The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own ignorance. Huh ???? I better get another beer to figure out this one .... just who is non-rational here ???? I haven't figured this one out yet. My idea of amateur radio is a deversion from my daily routine. I do not live by it or for it. It is my desire that all involved in the hobby-service-passion what ever have a good time in fellowship. The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood. Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a "real feel" of it by doing similar things. OK by your argument then lets say sex ..... but your definition of "real feel" and what I say is normal may differ. Take care 73 KI3R Tom Popovic Belle Vernon Pa. Enjoying ham radio for what it is to me ..not what others perceive it or wish it to be. |
#266
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Mark Little wrote:
"Dave Heil" wrote in message ... snip The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own ignorance. The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood. Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a "real feel" of it by doing similar things. Nonsense, yourself. There are plenty of activities which might have some outward similarities to other things but which are actually quite different. Hunting with a shotgun is quite different than hunting with a rifle. Even the aiming technique is very different. Driving the family sedan on the roads and highways doesn't give one the feel for Formula One racing. Being a Television station engineer doesn't impart a feel for how to chase a weak one on 160m. I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as being an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the operations - there are licences, How tough was the studying for a license for which there is no exam? ;-) there are regulations, The regs aren't very much alike, are they? In fact, such point-to-point channelized communications can only be compared to amateur VHF/UHF FM operation. there are serious conversations, there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and information exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of "brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators. What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is completely alien from any other activity? Oh, I can't think of a thing, Mark. Let's allow an artillery officer who has never hunted game, decide best how game hunting should be regulated. Ignorance would be to assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio. This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even very similar activities. You can bet there are and if you've read many of Leonard H. Anderson's posts over the years, you'll find that he doesn't see them. Dave K8MN |
#267
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It is VERY important to use PROPER PROCEDURE in all ham activity. Sort of like driving in the right lane so as to maximize everyone's enjoyment .... reduce frustration etc. When hacking Western Union on the NTS, one MUST use the official authorized radiogram forms. Net users may lose their jobs if the official proper form is not used. All five of them. Whatever floats one's boat ...again not my call on what I define as enjoyment. Passing traffic ... not for me personally. Never at any time may other radio services' jargon, expressions, or any other words except as officially permitted by league guides be used on or off the air by devout amateurs. "Roger that" and "ten-four" phrases are punishable by excommunication of any communication. The normal penance is 100 Hail-Hirams and "sin no more" exhortations. Better watch it Len ...Hiram is listening ... Proper civil courtesy on the air is to give everyone a "599" report, even ......during contests where all signals are 599 due to the ruler of the ionosphere making it so ...could never figure out this one ...but again I could never figure out contests but again whatever floats one's boat ...have a good time. if asking for repeats due to local noise. On 'phone all have superb diction and are perfectly understandable...always. Len ...I have to get the receiver you are using and that DSP mode for diction control ...from what I have heard ..we could sure use it . All amateur radios operate by laws of the league, not the laws of physics. Correct procedure is to always consult a Handbook, never any textbook about other radio services' equipment. Amateur radios do not work by such non-applicable laws. Only league books have official information. Ah Len com'on ...thats a stretch even tounge in cheekedly ...besides how do you expect the league to make money? BTW are you a Diamond Club member yet .... for a couple grand you can get a discount on all league publications. That should pay for itself in a millenium or 2. The "amateur community" always rules on dedication and committment of all. Except for the Extras who are above criticsm and gods of radio. Len you need to talk to my wife ...she dosen't think so. I have heard her use a phrase containing God in reference to my radio as in get off that *** **** radio and do some work around here. All amateurs not expressing love, honor, and obeyance of morse code are bottom-feeding slime and shall always be treated as inferior trash not even worthy of contempt. Naa not really ... but they are missing out on one tool in the box of ham radio. There, I guess this sums it up fairly well... :-) eehhh ..... maybe LHA / WMD Take care Len ..73 KI3R Tom |
#268
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Bill Sohl wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... Bill Sohl wrote: "N2EY" wrote in message Do you support those free upgrades or not? I (K2UNK) do...on this "one time" basis. Uh huh! I'll ask: Are those who get the so called "one time" upgrade qualified? Why would they be "unqualified?" Let's be serious here! In the incentive license scheme the privileges gained have no bearing at all to the knowledge base in the sylabus for the license test. I'd strongly suggest the greater danger to personal or others life/limb is equally shared by Tech thru Extra as it relates to permitted VHF/UHF operating at the legal limit. So you now support no testing whatsoever, since the priveliges have no bearing? Glad you finally got serious and admitted it. If you support them, then by definition you are supoorting a reduction in the written test requirements for those licenses. Incomplete statement. Supporting a one-time upgrade doesn't mean anyone supports "permanent" reductions of the written requirements. THAT is the critical difference. Give me a break, Bill! Are the people getting the "one time upgrade" qualified? Tell me why they would be unqualified? Unqualified as to doing what? You are right Bill. There really is no need for qualification if you don't want there to be. Now you might argue that it's only a temporary or one-time reduction, but it's still a reduction. It is a ONE time reduction. You and I can disagree about the reason's to do it, but my support or anyone else's support of the one time upgrade does NOT mean I or anyone else supports permanent reductions in requirements. Are the people qualified? YES...and if you think otherwise, please tell us what makes them unqualified and/or in what specific aspect(s) or priviliges they would be unqualified. So why make the tests more difficult after the "one shot" upgrade? If you think a technician is now qualified to be a General, then you should be consistant. And since it affects over 400,000 hams, it's not a small matter. If it goes through it will be forgotten in a couple of years. Why, because no one losses any privileges. Are they qualified? Broken record here it seems. You notice? A few things here. IF the people getting the free upgrade are qualified then there is *no reason to increase the requirements ever again*. If you support that you are just as supportive of a hazing requirement (over-testing) as the evil Morse code supporters. I repeat agin, the incentive licensing system bears NO true relation to the increased privileges granted. The incentive system as created simply asks for passage of another test on subject matter of a more difficult content. Knowledge of that material certainly doesn't lead to any special qualification that differentiates an Extra operating in the "Extra Only" spectrum from that of a General operating in the General spectrum of the same band at the same maximum permitted power. If they are not qualified, then you are not only sending them upward and onward without the proper qualifications, you are doing them a great disservice. Quite frankly, I believe that You, Carl, and Mr. W5YI do *indeed* support permanent changes in the written requirement access to HF. The ARRL does not take that position at all...except for the "new" novice which would have greater HF privileges...but with limited power. Carl and I support the ARRL petition (except for the code test) The ARRL is being illogical. And I see you don't deny my assertion. I refuse to believe that you are all that naive to think that we'll just do this once Believe whatever makes you feel good. Doesn't make me feel good at all! and no one will notice that suddenly the requirements will go up. The requirements won't go up...they will stay the same. The only thing happening here (if FCC approves) is the written test will be waiver one time for the particular ham going from Tech to General or Advanced to Extra. You're playing with my words here. A person that takes the Technician test, then becomes a General with no further retesting. A person that takes a Technician test, then a General test. Which person has done more? Unless you are suggesting that the future General test is simply the equivalent of the Tech test. I remember promises of never accepting reduction in test requirements. I remember the explicit distancing of personal opinions from NCI. But here you all are, supporting reductions in the requirements for access to HF. A pattern forms. Yea, yea...and with the music to twilight Zone in the background too. Believe whatever you want, whatever floats your boat. Yeah I know, lifes a bitch............ - Mike KB3EIA - |
#269
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"N2EY" wrote in message
... In article , "Mark Little" writes: "Dave Heil" wrote in message ... snip The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own ignorance. The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood. Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a "real feel" of it by doing similar things. The question, then, is "what is a similar thing?" What would be similar to, say: - having a baby According to a woman I know, passing a kidney stone. She has done both so is probably in a good situation to know. I will take that one on faith as neither seems that appealing. - running a marathon "Hitting the wall" and the physical tribulations associated with a marathon are not limited to running. If you have done other activities that stress the body, then you are in a position to get the "feel". In my case, that is just running to the end of the street. ;-) - playing a musical instrument really well Anyone who has had to practice long and hard to achieve any hand skill will know the satisfaction that comes with doing something well. I can't play the guitar "really well", but I think it is safe to say I have a feel for what it would be like to be able to do so. (others are invited to add to the list) Jumping off a cliff - Never done it, but I have a good feel for what happens - At the bottom, you go splattt!!!!! I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as being an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the operations - there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious conversations, there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and information exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of "brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators. There are also big differences. What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is completely alien from any other activity? Several things: 1) Hams have a level of freedom pretty much unmatched in other services. Wide variety of modes, bands, technologies, and activities. No channelization or requirement to use certain types of equipment. I suggest that you look at the FCC page and search for "experimental licence". These couple of snippets may be of interest to show its breadth: "Any person or entity--corporation, individual, etc. that is not a foreign government or representative of a foreign government may obtain an experimental license." "Any frequency allocated to non-Government or Government use in the Table of Frequency Allocations may be assigned under the Experimental Radio Service, except frequencies exclusively allocated to the passive services." Use of non-approved equipment is also permitted with this licence. 2) Hams are almost all self-funded and noncommercial, using their own equipment on their own time. Agreed, but again this is not unique. Plenty of people including CB operators and pleasure marine radio operators in the same boat (pun intended). 3) [this it the really big one] Amateur radio is, at its core, radio communication for its own sake. To other services, radio is but a means to an end, but to hams the medium really is a big part of the message. Or to put it another way, the ham's journey is as important, if not more important, than the destination. You are incorrect to assert that the medium is not important to others, especially in the scientific community. Radio propagation research by definition is interested in the medium. It is also misleading to imply that the majority of Amateur have the medium as the primary focus of their activities. The majority of Amateurs use commercial equipment and spend the majority of their time chin-wagging. From their conversations, it is obvious that the conversation is more import than the medium. This is why certain things from other services don't apply to hams. The person watching TV usually doesn't care how the signal gets to the set - VHF, UHF, terrestrical, satellite, analog, digital, cable, fiber, whatever. All the TV viewer cares about is how good the picture, sound and program are. While the person who watches TV may have no idea how it works, there is a complete army of people behind that tube that do know how it works and why it works. If one were to subtract the number of hams who cannot even fix a simple fault in their commerical rig, the odds would not be much different. The military communications folks don't care how the messages are carried, just so the messages get where they need to be, when they need to be there, without the bad guys knowing about them. I'll bet its fair to say that most Amateurs do not understand how Packet, PACTOR or even just their rigs work. They simply plug in the boxes and off they go. Do you know or care how your email and postings get to and from your computer? Actually, I do as I run my own servers. If you're like 99.99% of the online population, it's not an issue as long as it happens. This is also the case for many Amateurs. Most would not know how their current rig works and they would neither have the expertise or equipment to find anything but the most trivial of faults. Heck, many if not most cellphone users don't even think in terms of "radio" - the cellphone to them is a telephone without wires, that's all. (In fact I have had people tell me that a cellphone is *not* a radio!) As I said most Amateurs don't know how packet works or even how their Yaesu works. Under this defintion, most Amateurs aren't amateurs either. If one goes into particular instances, I've fixed radios for more than one full call that could not find that the battery wire had broken. Such anecdotes may be amusing, but have little value in the big picture. The radio amateur does radio, for the most part, for purely emotional reasons. IOW, because it's fun, rewarding, challenging, educating, etc. "Radio for it's own sake". Certainly in the area I work, I have seen the scientists knock back very large amounts of money because it didn't have a research component that they found "fun, rewarding, challenging, educating, etc." This is why modes like Morse code, AM voice and Baudot FSK RTTY continue in use in amateur radio. Hams like them. They're fun, and they work. Morse - still used commercially, in the forces and aviation (ident calls). AM voice - still used in broadcasting. FSK RTTY - still used as anyone with a communications rig can tell you. None of these are unique to AR. There is no doubt that these modes work and "fun" to some people. This is true even if you are a commercial operator. There are plenty of people who actually enjoy their work. BTW, not all hams like these modes. Many people don't like Morse, many also don't like AM because of its bandwidth, especially in the lower bands and most Amateurs don't use RTTY with or without the clunking teleprinter. Ignorance would be to assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio. This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even very similar activities. And some very big differences. Much of what is done in other radio services does not transfer to amateur radio at all. For example, every other radio service I know of seeks to eliminate the need for a skill in the operation of the radio equipment. They think in terms of "user", not "radio operator". And given their constraints, it may make sense to do so, because it is usually less expensive to buy sophisticated equipment than to pay a skilled radio operator. How many Amateurs still neutralise their power amplifiers? No many. Why? Because they have decided to buy (in most cases not build) more sophisticated equipment that reduces the skill required to operate the radio. There is no difference. I don't know too many Amateurs who go to buy a rig and want the one that is the hardest to use. But to hams, radio operating skill is the whole point. Unsustainable if you listen to the bands. Most people do not even comply with the statuatory requirements for identification, let alone push the envelope of operating skills. Are you suggesting that randomly monitoring the Amateur Bands for a few hours would show a very high level of operating skill? I wouldn't bet the farm on that one, would you? As I said, AR is by no means "unique" in what it provides and there are many people in the radio field, even if they don't hold an AR licence that would have a "really good feel" of what the Amateur Serice is all about bases on their other experiences. It concerns me when Amateurs attempt to tell others that AR is "unique" and that a non-amateur could never underestand what it is all about, because all it does is reduce credibilty. Mark 73 de Jim, N2EY |
#270
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"garigue" wrote in message
news:zgAXb.313140$xy6.1534723@attbi_s02... The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own ignorance. Huh ???? I better get another beer to figure out this one .... just who is non-rational here ???? I haven't figured this one out yet. My idea of amateur radio is a deversion from my daily routine. I do not live by it or for it. It is my desire that all involved in the hobby-service-passion what ever have a good time in fellowship. The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood. Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a "real feel" of it by doing similar things. OK by your argument then lets say sex ..... but your definition of "real feel" and what I say is normal may differ. By taking this tack, even a licenced Amateur would not be able to get a "real feel" as it is just about 100% certain that they will have different interests and priorities than you. I take a less metaphysical approach to "real feel". I mean it is relatively easy to determine what Amateurs do and there are plenty of related things (CB & marine radio, electronics kits, regulations, chat rooms, phones, etc) so that a person could reasonably be expected to be about to judge whether this would be interesting - before they went to the effort of getting a licence. Take care 73 KI3R Tom Popovic Belle Vernon Pa. Enjoying ham radio for what it is to me ..not what others perceive it or wish it to be. As it should be, but that does not prevent unlicenced people from knowing what the hobby is about. Whether they would enjoy those activities is a matter of personality, not of holding a licence. regards, Mark |
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