Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/18/2004 6:41 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
.com...

It will simulate (among other things) and earthquake along the
New Madrid fault.

Say Hi to Dick/W0EX.

I think the New Madrid Fault was the only thing that kept him going.

I am sure there are some othr sick, demeaning things you could say or do
about the dead, but I am not too sure what they are....

Thanks for validating my Estimated Creep Score for you...

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/18/2004 7:58 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
.com...
(William) wrote in message
. com...
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
. com...
(William) wrote in message
.com...
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
.com...
(William) wrote in message
.com...

You sure seemed to be doing a good job of it above. Thanks for coming
clean and acknowledging that cellular telephones have played a huge
role in emergency response communications.

Here you go with putting words in other peoples post,
MiniLennie...

I DID NOT say they play a "huge role". They are important, but
thier loss of service is a contingency planned for. So is the loss of
the commercial and public service systems. Those plans include using
Amateur Radio as a stop-gap.

Can you/do you refute this?

Yes, I can.

Quoting Lean:

"Alun, according to the Census Bureau's data as of 2003, there are 100
million cellular telephone subscriptions in the USA. That's about one
for every three citizens. Rather large "spread," I'd say.

This is no proof, Brain.

SHOW ME where those UNLICENSED SERVICES are USED in playing a MAJOR ROLE
(your choice of adjectives) in "emergency comms".


Brain, WHY do you insist on making assertions that ANYONE who
might care to research can find out are so blatantly false?

Do you ENJOY being proven a liar?

Why do you leave out other forms of cummunications???

I haven't.

We have been discussing AMATEUR RADIO'S role in emergency communications,
since this IS a forum for Amateur Radio.

Nonetheless those other servies get thier mention as the conversation
leans that way.

YOU have NOT answered TWO questions:

What "major role" have unlicensed services played in "emergency comms",

And..."Do you ENJOY being proven a liar".

You're simply wrong on that one. Amateur radio does not offer the
flexibility and utility that cellular telephones provide.

Oh...?!?! How?

Because if there were 100 million amateur licensees in America like
there are 100 million cellular telephone subscriptions, our bands
would be overloaded and useless.

CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW???

There is no way that 100 million cellphones could occupy the
infrastructure at the same time.

As for those 100 million people being on the air at the same time, WHO
NEEDS THEM?

It has already been proven that a small number of well trained people can
do a job far more efficeintly and effectively than 10 times thier number of
UNtrained people.

(this guy IS an idiot...Hope I get to see him at Dayton and tell
him to his face...)

I'd rather not meet you in person. You scare me.

I should. I expose the true nature of your character, and that's just
from unravelling your poorly prepared rants in this forum. I can imagine what
a fool I could make of you in a TRUE public forum.

So stay away from me.

I imagine that will be no problem...If your in-person stench approximates
your on-line nature, I will have plenty of time to change my direction of
travel.

Of course you could find something else to do this May. Judging from the
character of your posts here, Witless Willy, I imagine you have little
tolerence for licensed Amateur Radio operators anyway.

When the cellsite is down, unaccessable, or overloaded, HOW do you
communicate with your cellphone?

When your ham radio is broke, how do you communicate with it?

I don't. But I CAN open the box, fix the problem, and continue with what
I was doing.

And if that's impractical, I switch radios.

Challenges, challenges, challenges! That's a part of your problem,
Don Quixoterobeson. Always making challenges.

So far, Putz, you've not been up to ANY challenge. (no cajones)

Is that a threat?

Only "threat(ening)" to your ego, Brain.

I said you don't have the cajones to honestly answer quetions put to you.

Your "response" is to NOT answer the question, and then insinuate my
assertion of your lack of 'nads" is somehow a threat.

When the repeater is down, I can switch to simplex...When the
propagation is bad, I can switch bands...If FM is inappropriate, I can
switch to a data mode or SSB.

So far, Brain, you've not proved anything except your
ignorance...but you've done THAT well...

I said your radio is broke. Switch away for all the good it does you.

And I said if it breaks, I'll fix it. Amateurs (well...at least SOME
of us...) know how to do that.

Please DISPROVE ANYTHING I have said about Amateur Radio's
role.

Just did.

No, you've not. You have made a foolish assertion that is NOT
supported by a shred of evidence.

Yes, I did. You only have one scenario in your head. That scenario
is that cell phones won't work in an emergency.

That's the scenario YOU have. I've cired many others. You simply keep
trying to come back to only one that you think you can legitimately argue.

First of all I have not "ommited" anything. I have discussed
other services on many occassions...It happens THIS is a forum on
Amateur Radio.

Your emergency plan scenario that you are acting out this weekend is
that cell phones won't be working.

Among others...That is only one part of a very large plan.

And can YOU tell ME that if a major earthquake occured that those services
would, without question, remain in service?

Am I wrong?

Usually, yes.

Will you deny emergency comms to us if we needed them?

Of course.

Those of us who are actually involved in these types of activities
prepare in advance for these issues. It's called "TRAINING".

You trained for the Twin Towers attack?

We've trained for a loss of commercial telephone service, regardless of
how it occurs, Brain.

Did your exercise scenario shut down the cell system?

Yep.

Or did it actually work as actual 9/11 survivors said it worked?

"...actual 9/11 survivors" used their phones prior to the towers falling.

Most American Citizens are not responding agencies, don't have MOUs,
aren't amateur radio operators.

What do they use?

Cell Phones.

Please tell me, Brain, what SERVICE to all those cellphone carrying
citizens perform?

They are only calling for thier own needs.

Again, you try to argue the needs of the one as opposed to the meads of the
many.

Unless your emergencies are always predictable, in which case they are
not emergencies.

Sure they are.

Can anyone say exactly WHEN an emergency will occur? Of course
not! But I know, with unfaltering certainty, that tornadoes will
come, rivers will flood, buildings will burn, aircraft will crash,
power grids will fail, etc etc etc.

Are YOU saying that these events, which we KNOW will occur at
some time, are NOT emergencies simply becasue we know they occur?

You got me there. In all of the situations above, how will the
average Joe communicate?

Communicate what? "HELP...THERE'S A TORNADOI!"

You try to meld "emergency communications" with "distress calls".

You need to learn the difference, Brain.

Put in the spot of being asked to validate his assertions, he
wants to play silly sandlot games. OK... That pretty well validates
my assessment of him....Brian Burke is a coward.

Sounds like more challenges. You really want to get into it, don't
you?

You're already "in it", Brain.

You deceive, you make allegations you can't/won't substantiate. You
humiliate yourself by claiming another person, known to be a pathological liar,
as your "mentor".

There's no "challenge" there. You said these things. I didn't have to
make this up.

Cellphones were nearly USELESS in the initial stages of the
attacks in NYC due to overload and loss of cell sites. This is
documented fact.

Nope. Lots of people used their cell phones. One even used his phone
to call home and leave a goodbye message to his wife on their
answereing machine.

He didn't use amateur radio or CW.

No, he didn't. I read those stories too. They were made before the
Towers fell and the system was still, essentially, in tact.

Why are you being an idiot? Was this a birth defect, or have you
been studying...???

You just cannot bring yourself to say that cellular telephones have
any use whatsoever in an emergency.

YOU are the person making that allegation, Lennie...I mean Brain...

I have already stated otherwise.

I can remember the names of every commanding officer or OIC I
served under in the USMC going back to my Series Commander in boot
camp in 1974. You can't pony-up a name of a guy you served in a war
zone with...?!?!

Forward location. Not a war zone though the VFW thinks so.

Ahhhhhh....an excuse. I see. OK.

Yes, there are. And they still depend on Amateur Radio
organizations to fill essential billets in EOC's.

Thus, military installations can work with their IMD to set up a BST
under MARS. Much better outcome than relying on people who CHOP
themselves to the ARC, Salvation Army, County EOC, CAP, Homeless
Shelter, Friends of the Library, and Bicycle Rodeos.

And the members of MARS who flesh out those BST's are.....

(1) CB users

(2) FRS/MURS owners

(3) Licensed Amateur Radio operators

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

When was the last time YOU were in an EOC as a functionary,
Brain? When was the last time you participated in ANY disaster
mitigation exercise in ANY role?

I do enough on the job re mitigation.

You mean yo stay out of everyone else's way...?!?!

GOOD FOR YOU!

You and Dee simply cannot accept that an unlicensed service has
played
a major role in emergency comms.

What "unlicensed service"...?!?! CB? FRS? MURS? Part 15
compliant devices?

Sure. Why not?

OK, Brain...YOUR "scenario" was "that an unlicensed service has
played a major role in emergency comms".

Now...provide me with some example of one of those "unlicensed
services" playing a "major role".

To ME, at least, "major role" means that SOME sort of crucial
event was dependent upon one of those "services" being able to render
a meaningful, positive outcome.

So...YOU put it out there, let's see you come up with some
pertinent examples.

And remember, Brain, "major" was YOUR adjective...NOT mine.

I'm just so happy that you finally acknowledged that mere cell phones
play a major role in disaster communications. Or did you?

I said they played a role...just like Amateur Radio does.

Now...You made some silly assertions that I've asked you to
substantiate.

You got the cajones to come up with valid answers, or are we to
be treated to more of your lame sandlot excuses...???

You completely quoted all of that, Brain, but didn't answer a single bit
of it...even facetiously...

Ya did a GOOD JOB of validating my assumption of your lack of valid
argument and lack of cajones to do so...

Remember, Brain...we're using YOUR adjectives of "MAJOR ROLE" in disaster
and/or emergency communications.

So far, the only "role" you've been able to cite is Joe Average calling
9-1-1 to report an emergency. That is NOT "emergency comms".

I WANT TO KNOW what ROLE those unlicensed services play in disaster
mitigation EMERGENCY COMMUNICATIONS....

Thanks.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/19/2004 12:03 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(William) writes:

Now, not every American Citizen has access to an amateur radio
operator. I'd say most don't know even one amateur, and many don't
know what ham radio is (Isn't that like CB?)

Mama Dee claims there are some Americans who don't even
know what a "CB" is!

You say that EVERY American citizens DOES know what "CB" is, SCummy One?

TAFKARJ claims that "CB" originated in 1946...except that
"11 meters" is not at 465 MHz.

"CB" does not solely refer to operations at 11 meters, Lennie.

Why do you leave out other forms of cummunications???

Brian, the gunnery nurse doesn't KNOW of any other form of
communications...

He is a Believer. If he reads some political screed about
"emergency service" he thinks that ALL hams do that and
ALL got into amateur radio to be "emergency communicators."

Yet another lie, but Leonard H Anderson is capable of nothing more.

When your ham radio is broke, how do you communicate with it?

He THROWS it? :-)

His radios NEVER break. They always work. He can march
50 miles with a Yaecomwood on his back if he has on a
uniform.

I just fix them, Lennie.

You're not the only person here who can use a spectrum analyzer, VTVM, or
a signal gererator.

I challenge you to prove THAT otherwise, also.

Challenges, challenges, challenges! That's a part of your problem,
Don Quixoterobeson. Always making challenges.

So far, Putz, you've not been up to ANY challenge. (no cajones)

Is that a threat?

The gunnery nurse would like you to THINK that.

He may also think Kim and Dee have "cojones."

They have more than you or PuppetBoy, Lennie...

Am I wrong?

Only the gunnery nurse and any other PCTA is "right" in this
newsgroup. Everyone else is "wrong."

People are only "wrong" when the information they supply is in error.

So far, PuppetBoy has not provided any "evidence" to support his
allegations.

YOU have already been caught blatantly lying and making accusations you
cannot/will not validate.

Did your exercise scenario shut down the cell system?

"Cell sites ALWAYS fail in an emergency..."

"Train For The Worst, Hope For The Best"..or my personal reference,
"Paratus et Vigilans".

Sounds like more challenges. You really want to get into it, don't
you?

He has more testosterone than smarts...which is not a great deal...

So far I have more facts than you or Brain.

Nope. Lots of people used their cell phones. One even used his phone
to call home and leave a goodbye message to his wife on their
answereing machine.

He didn't use amateur radio or CW.

That can't be true...the ARRL never put THAT in their web page as
"official."

The New York Times did, however...the message was left before the Towers
toppled.

Also, the messages left from the third hijacked plane were left before the
passengers tried to re-take the plane.

To the best of my knowlewdge, none of the cellphone on that flight worked
after the plane crashed.

Is that the picture you paint?

With a paint-by-number kit...

That's the ONLY picture you can paint accurately, Lennie...But I am
willing to bet even then you substitute the colors at will there, too...

Hey, Brian, yon gunnery nurse are gonna play Let's Pretend with
a "simulated" earthquake. They will shake in their boots to make
like the earth moved for them. Maybe they will have a "hostile
action" too and award pretty decorations for all of that. High fives
all around (simulated, of course).

I still challenge you, Sir Scummy of Anderson, to refute that any
emergency response agencies in SoCal (or anywhere in the Schwartzennegger
Empire) do NOT "train" (ie: SIMULATE) disaster scenarios.

I can't wait for the documentary movie of the event to be shown on
the History Channel.

I can't wait for you to show me how OES prepares for emergencies without
training thier personnel.

Steve, K4YZ

JJ wrote in message ...
William wrote:


I would hazard a quess that the average American Citizen DOES know
someone with a cell phone. Cell phones are almost ubiquitous, so much
so that they are annoyances. 100 million subscriptions, 265 million
people. You do the math.

And the network becomes useless in an emergency,

Stop right there.

In every emergency ever, the cell network always becomes useless?

JJ wrote in message ...
William wrote:


You just cannot bring yourself to say that cellular telephones have
any use whatsoever in an emergency.

For handling official emergency traffic they are not of any use, that is
why the military and civil officials dismiss them completely from their
emergency planning. They do include ham radio.

Lemme see.

Emergency planners have cell phones tagged to their belts, right?

Emergency planners don't have ham radio tagged to their belts, right?

Len Over 21 wrote:

D. Flint"
writes:
You are obviously unaware that in an emergency, the government can and does
declare designated frequencies off limits to general usage for the duration
of that emergency.


Right, Mama Dee, that's "exactly" what happened after the second
hijacked airliner crashed into the WTC towers, didn't it?

Right...just like the Loma Prieta and Northridge earthquakes when
the government ordered every radio thing be all ham emergency...

Right...just like all the southwest and northwest firestorms had
every radio commandeered for emergency use.

Right...just like every hurricane striking the east coast has all radios
off limits by Order.

It is common for the FCC to declared certain frequencies on the ham
bands off limits to all but emergency traffic in times of emergencies,
during hurricanes is an example.



But, in your scenario of the mind, "all cell sites fall down during
emergencies" and only ham radio can save everyone. In real
life they sure didn't. Don't let that trouble you. We are all
children to you.

The cell phone network is not even a consideration for emergency
communications by the military and civil authorities, ham radio is.

Len Over 21 wrote:



TAFKARJ claims that "CB" originated in 1946...except that
"11 meters" is not at 465 MHz. :-)

There was a band at that frequency that citizens could apply for and
use, thus a "citizens band" or "cb".



Because if there were 100 million amateur licensees in America like
there are 100 million cellular telephone subscriptions, our bands
would be overloaded and useless.

CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW???

And that is exactly why the cell network is useless for official
emergency comms, every cell user wants to dial up twenty of their
closest friends and tell them to turn on the tee-vee, overloading the
network. The military and civil autorities do not consider the cell
network a viable means of emergency comms, they do for ham radio.


When the cellsite is down, unaccessable, or overloaded, HOW do you
communicate with your cellphone?

When your ham radio is broke, how do you communicate with it?


He THROWS it? :-)

Which one, I have several, what are the odds they are all down at the
same time? How many cell phones do you have?

Your emergency plan scenario that you are acting out this weekend is
that cell phones won't be working.

Am I wrong?

As far as using the cell network for official emergency comms, you can
consider it not working. In times of a major emergency it becomes
useless for anything but attempting to make a call.

Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:


But NOT for the types of communications that were supported by Amateur
Radio...that's the PURPOSE of Amateur Radio...to relieve those other services
of having to worry about that.

Lets see if in the next emergency when another service is needed to
relieve other services, which the emergency officials call on first for
relief, lenny and witless william with their gameboy cell phones, or ham
radio.
Try as they may to discredit ham radio's usefullness in such times, the
military and civil authorities consider ham radio to be viable means of
communications in emergencies, but not the cell network.

William wrote:

JJ wrote in message ...

William wrote:


I would hazard a quess that the average American Citizen DOES know
someone with a cell phone. Cell phones are almost ubiquitous, so much
so that they are annoyances. 100 million subscriptions, 265 million
people. You do the math.

And the network becomes useless in an emergency,


Stop right there.

In every emergency ever, the cell network always becomes useless?

As far as millitary and civil authorities are concerned for official
emergency comms... a big *yes*.

William wrote:

JJ wrote in message ...

William wrote:


You just cannot bring yourself to say that cellular telephones have
any use whatsoever in an emergency.

For handling official emergency traffic they are not of any use, that is
why the military and civil officials dismiss them completely from their
emergency planning. They do include ham radio.


Lemme see.

Emergency planners have cell phones tagged to their belts, right?

Sure they do, but in the case of a 9/11 emergency they would be hard
pressed to use them. Cell phone are great during the planning, but when
the real emergency comes, they become useless for emergency comms.


Emergency planners don't have ham radio tagged to their belts, right?

If they are licensed hams they might have. Why would they if they were
not licensed? Face it billyboy, for the real comms needed in an
emergency situation, the cell network is not considered by emergency
officials to be of use, they do consider ham radio.

In article , JJ
writes:

claims that "CB" originated in 1946...except that
"11 meters" is not at 465 MHz. :-)

There was a band at that frequency that citizens could apply for and
use, thus a "citizens band" or "cb".

It was called the "citizens radio service" even back then, and the 465 MHz
allocations were referred to as Class A and Class B citizens' band - or cb.
(One class was voice and the other was radio control). When the 27 MHz
allocations were authorized, they were known as Class C and Class D cb.

CB was already more than a decade old in 1958.

73 de Jim, N2EY

JJ wrote in message ...
William wrote:

JJ wrote in message ...

William wrote:


You just cannot bring yourself to say that cellular telephones have
any use whatsoever in an emergency.

For handling official emergency traffic they are not of any use, that is
why the military and civil officials dismiss them completely from their
emergency planning. They do include ham radio.


Lemme see.

Emergency planners have cell phones tagged to their belts, right?

Sure they do,

Hmmm? wonder why?

but in the case of a 9/11 emergency they would be hard
pressed to use them. Cell phone are great during the planning, but when
the real emergency comes, they become useless for emergency comms.

They do, huh? So rather than flipping open their cell phone and
stating "dial EOC," they race back to the EOC and invoke a 100% recall
of emergency responders without even trying their cell.

Emergency planners don't have ham radio tagged to their belts, right?

If they are licensed hams they might have.

And the chances of that are?

They probably have a greater chance of gettin thru on their cell
phones than they do being licensed.

Why would they if they were
not licensed?

They would have an amateur hooked to their belt keying the PTT button.

Face it billyboy, for the real comms needed in an
emergency situation, the cell network is not considered by emergency
officials to be of use, they do consider ham radio.

Yet they wouldn't be w/o that cell on their hip. Wonder why?

JJ wrote in message ...
William wrote:

JJ wrote in message ...

William wrote:


I would hazard a quess that the average American Citizen DOES know
someone with a cell phone. Cell phones are almost ubiquitous, so much
so that they are annoyances. 100 million subscriptions, 265 million
people. You do the math.

And the network becomes useless in an emergency,


Stop right there.

In every emergency ever, the cell network always becomes useless?

As far as millitary and civil authorities are concerned for official
emergency comms... a big *yes*.

Are you the SECDEF? Are you the Director of FEMA?

You paint with a broad brush and without authority.

That makes it grafitti.

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message gy.com...
"William" wrote in message
om...
Put 100 million amateurs on our bands and you think you can get a
message thru?


You are obviously unaware that in an emergency, the government can and does
declare designated frequencies off limits to general usage for the duration
of that emergency.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

That is correct. They would likely put amateurs off the air.

JJ wrote in message ...
Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:


But NOT for the types of communications that were supported by Amateur
Radio...that's the PURPOSE of Amateur Radio...to relieve those other services
of having to worry about that.

Lets see if in the next emergency when another service is needed to
relieve other services, which the emergency officials call on first for
relief, lenny and witless william with their gameboy cell phones, or ham
radio.
Try as they may to discredit ham radio's usefullness in such times, the
military and civil authorities consider ham radio to be viable means of
communications in emergencies, but not the cell network.

JayJay, I happen to be an amateur. I have equipment. I have been
trained.

I am available should the need arise.

I do not discredit amateur radio's usefulness in such times.

Yet you greatly discredit the impact that cellular telephones have
made on emergency communications.

Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:


But even MORE unfortuntate for YOU, Your Scumminess, is that YOU and YOU
ALONE keep trying to use the Northridge Earthquake as some "evidence" that
Amateur Radio is of no value in an emergency. That was ONE event in over 90
years of archived Amateur histroy.

In which it has been documented many times over that ninety years of the
valuable service Amateur Radio has provided.

In article , JJ
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

TAFKARJ claims that "CB" originated in 1946...except that
"11 meters" is not at 465 MHz. :-)

There was a band at that frequency that citizens could apply for and
use, thus a "citizens band" or "cb".

Only two of the original four Citizens Band Radio Service classes
survive.

"Class C" CB evolved into Radio Control as shown in Part 95,
Title 47 C.F.R. That Radio Control Radio Service also achieved
its own band in the 72 MHz region, now favored by modelers
instead of the 27 MHz fixed frequencies.

"Class D," originally only 23 fixed frequencies on the old amateur
11 meter band, was expanded to 40 fixed frequencies several
years ago. "CB radios" now are all considered to be THE CB.

"Class A" and "Class B" CB, both on UHF, were deallocated
and eliminated from U.S. regulations back before "CB" was
expanded from 23 to 40 channels.

"Class C" and "Class D" CB was created in 1958 by the FCC.
That was over 45 years ago. I read about that first in 1958 in
Popular Electronics magazine during lunchbreak at Ramo-
Wooldridge Corporation in El Segundo, CA.

Because if there were 100 million amateur licensees in America like
there are 100 million cellular telephone subscriptions, our bands
would be overloaded and useless.

CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW???

And that is exactly why the cell network is useless for official
emergency comms, every cell user wants to dial up twenty of their
closest friends and tell them to turn on the tee-vee, overloading the
network. The military and civil autorities do not consider the cell
network a viable means of emergency comms, they do for ham radio.

The military have their own radios. Those work very well and
in environments far harsher than most "emergencies."

Civil authorities have their own radios. Public Safety Radio
Services include police, fire department, and medical services.
Those are backed-up with emergency electrical power at
base stations and are already networked.

Real emergency organizations consider ALL forms of
communications to be viable and will use anything that survives
a real emergency. They plan for that, train for that, and work
with the infrastructure of existing radios and landlines.

The best source of what happened aboard the "fourth plane"
on 11 Sep 01 came from passengers' and crews' cell phones.
Hijackers had taken over regular aircraft communications
devices in the cockpit. No ham radio was on board to do
anything in that Very Real emergency.

In the Pentagon Attack area during 11 Sep 01, military and
civilian communications was handled by existing military
and civilian communications means...a part of that was by
cell phone although most of it was by VHF and UHF HTs.
No ham radio was used in fire control or rescue work then.

In the WTC Attack during 11 Sep 01, the NYC Emergency
Communications Center (in an adjacent building) was largely
destroyed by falling debris, also severing many trunk lines
of the telephone system. NYC police and fire units did work-
arounds using their own radios in a relay system to several
centrals, calling in other agencies as well as special units to
help. Some cell phone service did work, regardless of myth to
the contrary and some wired phone service still worked, used
by almost anyone on the WTC Attack scene. Amateur radio
did not play any significant part (if any at all) during the few
hours after the Attack on the WTC.


When the cellsite is down, unaccessable, or overloaded, HOW do you
communicate with your cellphone?

When your ham radio is broke, how do you communicate with it?

He THROWS it? :-)

Which one, I have several, what are the odds they are all down at the
same time? How many cell phones do you have?

Since neither you nor your equipment is identified and we don't
know the working status of your "several" radios, the above is
just a brag claim of no intrinsic value.

Your emergency plan scenario that you are acting out this weekend is
that cell phones won't be working.

Am I wrong?

As far as using the cell network for official emergency comms, you can
consider it not working. In times of a major emergency it becomes
useless for anything but attempting to make a call.

That is a popular myth but it remains only a myth.

The cellular telephone network is part of the telephone infrastructure
and is intimately connected with the local exchange's switching unit.
That switching unit is designed to handle only a fraction of installed
numbers, both wireline and cell phone. But the switch itself is also
backed up by battery supplies "riding on" the primary power; also
true for cell sites themselves.

During any sudden event there WILL be a flurry of telephone calls
made and that MAY overtax the limited number-handling capability
of the switch. The probability of overload is in inverse relationship
to the suddenness of the event. The overload, if any, does NOT
last indefinitely. Such an overload is also dependent on the
telephone exchange and subscriber services arrangement. Note:
Not all subscribers are routed through the switch but may be direct
to some PBX-equivalent.

The onset of an earthquake is sudden, as yet not predictable. That
will guarantee an overload of telephone switches as worried,
distraught subscribers seek information and reassurance.

The onset of the 11 Sep 01 Attack by four hijacked airliners was not
only sudden but unprecedented, without any possible warning. The
subsequent crash of two airliners into the WTC towers did destroy a
portion of the lower Manhattan telephone system wiring but did NOT
destroy or disable the entire Manhattan telephone infrastructure.

The onset of a fire storm, typically in dry open country, is not sudden
and may take literal days from ignition start to reaching fire storm
conditions. There is plenty of warning time using conventional
communications means to begin fighting that.

Hurricanes are known and predicted from NOAA tracking, allow days
for all in the path to prepare. Again, communications may be done
by conventional means. Tornados are more sudden but allow hours
of preparation from first sighting. Storm and flood conditions allow
hours to days of preparation, again using conventional
communications to effect that.

Whenever conventional communications means survive any
emergency, those will be used. If from nothing else, their availability
such as with cellular telephones (at least 100 Million in the USA).

Regardless of the popular myth, the telephone system in the USA
has remained viable and grown in two decades that include several
earthquakes, several hurricanes, several tornados, several fire
storms, several floodings and storms...and the 11 Sep 01 Attack
On America from three hijacked airliners deliberately crashed into
buildings. It remains working.

There is no reported evidence of amateur radio ever stopping an
earthquake, hurricane, tornado, flood, storm, or aircraft hijacking.

LHA / WMD

In article , JJ
writes:

William wrote:

JJ wrote in message
...

William wrote:

You just cannot bring yourself to say that cellular telephones have
any use whatsoever in an emergency.

For handling official emergency traffic they are not of any use, that is
why the military and civil officials dismiss them completely from their
emergency planning. They do include ham radio.

Lemme see.

Emergency planners have cell phones tagged to their belts, right?

Sure they do, but in the case of a 9/11 emergency they would be hard
pressed to use them. Cell phone are great during the planning, but when
the real emergency comes, they become useless for emergency comms.

Not always true.

You want to select the 11 September 2001 Attack on America as
a typical emergency but that was a very UNtypical emergency
that no one could foresee or plan for. In the "9/11" incident ALL
methods of communications were strained.

There are NO verifiable stories about amateur radio doing anything
to aid anyone in the first few hours of the Attack in New York City
on 11 Sep 01. Conversely, even though the NYC Emergency
Center was almost destroyed in that Attack, police and fire
department personnel were in constant communications before and
immediately after the Attack in and around the World Trade Center.
Add to that the medical people, NYC officials, and various utilities
and other businesses who got into immediate action. All of that is
quite well documented in many and various media outside of
hobby groups.

Emergency planners don't have ham radio tagged to their belts, right?

If they are licensed hams they might have. Why would they if they were
not licensed? Face it billyboy, for the real comms needed in an
emergency situation, the cell network is not considered by emergency
officials to be of use, they do consider ham radio.

"Officials" who have already been through emergencies of many kinds
consider and plan for ANY kind of communications in ANY kind of
emergency or disaster situation.

A case in point is the "other" "9/11" Attack on the Pentagon in DC.
A year prior to the "9/11" Attack, the internal HVAC and utilities
communications and control system of that very large (horizontally)
structure were modified to allow selected sections to be isolated,
cut off from the main systems in order to minimize fire damage.
That system got a very real test on 11 Sep 01 and proved to be
good. Pentagon damage was confined to the immediate quintant
(?, one-fifth) with no spread beyond the aircraft crash point. After-
crash fire control and search and rescue was coordinated by on-
site military and civilian communications, not by amateur radio.

In the largely forgotten "fourth aircraft" incident on 11 Sep 04, we
have become familiar with the phrase "Let's [rock and] Roll!" that
was transmitted over a cellular telephone from the hijacked
airliner passenger cabin by a passenger. A stewardess' cell
phone call from that fourth hijacked plane has been recorded by
the media and played several times in broadcasts. Since the
hijackers had control of civil airways radios on that fourth plane,
the only available means of communications for the passengers
was by cell phone. Those calls got through. There are no viable
reports of amateur radio being used while that most definite
emergency situation was happening.

The "9/11" Attack is popular to espouse because of the enormous
emotional impact to all Americans. But, it was an ATTACK done
by other humans against all of us and definitely NOT some kind of
natural event emergency or disaster. The "kamikazi" nature of
this suicide attack was NOT anticipated by anyone and all were
in surprise and all had to work through the immediate aftermath
with whatever reseources were available.

"Radio" (as in two-way transceivers) doesn't exist in just cell phones
and ham rigs. There are - literally - hundreds of thousands of radios
existing now and in all the government and commercial infra-
structures. All of those hundreds of thousands of infrastructure
radios are available NOW and already networked. Those are and
will continue to be primary radio communications means in the real
emergencies that have been and are expected to happen in the
future. The secondary means are a mixture of infrastructure fall-
back planning and private-use radios, principally utility, business,
and other commercial radio services. Amateur radio is in the
tertiary level lumped in with CB, FRS, GMRS, and other private
radios...seldom organized to work with primary and secondary
levels and not depended upon as reliable for anything but health
and welfare (psychological reassurance) messaging for victims
after an emergency has occurred.

It does no good to express outrage and perceived insult the radios
in an essentially-recreational activity isn't venerated or rewarded
for exaggerated tales of heroism and good deeds. That only shows
an emotional instability that refuses to consider the vast infra-
structure of communications that exists and is robust enough to
have survived many disasters and emergencies of the past.

If cell phones work in some future emergency, they WILL be used.
There are just too many of them, the cell infrastructure too large to
overlook them. Public Service radios are already organized and
backed up, networked, planned, trained to work in emergency
conditions. Those will bear the brunt of future emergency
communications as they have successfully in the past. In the USA
there exist many and varied wired and fiber communications means,
locally to nationally...plus a variety of frequencies, modes, and
methods already in-place with the military and national guards
units, able to use equipment designed and proven to work through
the harshest of all enviornments: Warfare. Everything that can
work is useable and has been used, emergency planners and
coordinators already well aware of what is available and reliable.

This isn't the 1920s when "radio" was not widespread nor
technologically advanced, suitable only for some broadcasting
and on-off keying mode communications. This is 80 years later,
over three generations of time, and "radios" are numerous in the
governmental and commercial infrastructure. It would be best to
stop the self-perceived outrage at your hobby being slighted to
educate yourself on the entire world of "radio," what is there and
how it is being used and planned-for in real emergencies.

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/18/2004 7:58 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
.com...
(William) wrote in message
om...
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
om...
(William) wrote in message
. com...
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
. com...
(William) wrote in message
. com...

You sure seemed to be doing a good job of it above. Thanks for coming
clean and acknowledging that cellular telephones have played a huge
role in emergency response communications.

Here you go with putting words in other peoples post,
MiniLennie...

I DID NOT say they play a "huge role". They are important, but
thier loss of service is a contingency planned for. So is the loss of
the commercial and public service systems. Those plans include using
Amateur Radio as a stop-gap.

Can you/do you refute this?

Yes, I can.

Quoting Lean:

"Alun, according to the Census Bureau's data as of 2003, there are 100
million cellular telephone subscriptions in the USA. That's about one
for every three citizens. Rather large "spread," I'd say.

This is no proof, Brain.

SHOW ME where those UNLICENSED SERVICES are USED in playing a MAJOR
ROLE
(your choice of adjectives) in "emergency comms".


Brain, WHY do you insist on making assertions that ANYONE who
might care to research can find out are so blatantly false?

Do you ENJOY being proven a liar?

Why do you leave out other forms of cummunications???

I haven't.

We have been discussing AMATEUR RADIO'S role in emergency
communications,
since this IS a forum for Amateur Radio.

Nonetheless those other servies get thier mention as the conversation
leans that way.

YOU have NOT answered TWO questions:

What "major role" have unlicensed services played in "emergency
comms",

And..."Do you ENJOY being proven a liar".

You're simply wrong on that one. Amateur radio does not offer the
flexibility and utility that cellular telephones provide.

Oh...?!?! How?

Because if there were 100 million amateur licensees in America like
there are 100 million cellular telephone subscriptions, our bands
would be overloaded and useless.

CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW???

There is no way that 100 million cellphones could occupy the
infrastructure at the same time.

As for those 100 million people being on the air at the same time, WHO
NEEDS THEM?

It has already been proven that a small number of well trained people
can
do a job far more efficeintly and effectively than 10 times thier number of
UNtrained people.

(this guy IS an idiot...Hope I get to see him at Dayton and tell
him to his face...)

I'd rather not meet you in person. You scare me.

I should. I expose the true nature of your character, and that's just
from unravelling your poorly prepared rants in this forum. I can imagine
what
a fool I could make of you in a TRUE public forum.

So stay away from me.

I imagine that will be no problem...If your in-person stench
approximates
your on-line nature, I will have plenty of time to change my direction of
travel.

Of course you could find something else to do this May. Judging from
the
character of your posts here, Witless Willy, I imagine you have little
tolerence for licensed Amateur Radio operators anyway.

When the cellsite is down, unaccessable, or overloaded, HOW do you
communicate with your cellphone?

When your ham radio is broke, how do you communicate with it?

I don't. But I CAN open the box, fix the problem, and continue with
what
I was doing.

And if that's impractical, I switch radios.

Challenges, challenges, challenges! That's a part of your problem,
Don Quixoterobeson. Always making challenges.

So far, Putz, you've not been up to ANY challenge. (no cajones)

Is that a threat?

Only "threat(ening)" to your ego, Brain.

I said you don't have the cajones to honestly answer quetions put to
you.

Your "response" is to NOT answer the question, and then insinuate my
assertion of your lack of 'nads" is somehow a threat.

When the repeater is down, I can switch to simplex...When the
propagation is bad, I can switch bands...If FM is inappropriate, I can
switch to a data mode or SSB.

So far, Brain, you've not proved anything except your
ignorance...but you've done THAT well...

I said your radio is broke. Switch away for all the good it does you.

And I said if it breaks, I'll fix it. Amateurs (well...at least
SOME
of us...) know how to do that.

Please DISPROVE ANYTHING I have said about Amateur Radio's
role.

Just did.

No, you've not. You have made a foolish assertion that is NOT
supported by a shred of evidence.

Yes, I did. You only have one scenario in your head. That scenario
is that cell phones won't work in an emergency.

That's the scenario YOU have. I've cired many others. You simply
keep
trying to come back to only one that you think you can legitimately argue.

First of all I have not "ommited" anything. I have discussed
other services on many occassions...It happens THIS is a forum on
Amateur Radio.

Your emergency plan scenario that you are acting out this weekend is
that cell phones won't be working.

Among others...That is only one part of a very large plan.

And can YOU tell ME that if a major earthquake occured that those
services
would, without question, remain in service?

Am I wrong?

Usually, yes.

Will you deny emergency comms to us if we needed them?

Of course.

Those of us who are actually involved in these types of activities
prepare in advance for these issues. It's called "TRAINING".

You trained for the Twin Towers attack?

We've trained for a loss of commercial telephone service, regardless
of
how it occurs, Brain.

Did your exercise scenario shut down the cell system?

Yep.

Or did it actually work as actual 9/11 survivors said it worked?

"...actual 9/11 survivors" used their phones prior to the towers
falling.

Most American Citizens are not responding agencies, don't have MOUs,
aren't amateur radio operators.

What do they use?

Cell Phones.

Please tell me, Brain, what SERVICE to all those cellphone carrying
citizens perform?

They are only calling for thier own needs.

Again, you try to argue the needs of the one as opposed to the meads of
the
many.

Unless your emergencies are always predictable, in which case they are
not emergencies.

Sure they are.

Can anyone say exactly WHEN an emergency will occur? Of course
not! But I know, with unfaltering certainty, that tornadoes will
come, rivers will flood, buildings will burn, aircraft will crash,
power grids will fail, etc etc etc.

Are YOU saying that these events, which we KNOW will occur at
some time, are NOT emergencies simply becasue we know they occur?

You got me there. In all of the situations above, how will the
average Joe communicate?

Communicate what? "HELP...THERE'S A TORNADOI!"

You try to meld "emergency communications" with "distress calls".

You need to learn the difference, Brain.

Put in the spot of being asked to validate his assertions, he
wants to play silly sandlot games. OK... That pretty well validates
my assessment of him....Brian Burke is a coward.

Sounds like more challenges. You really want to get into it, don't
you?

You're already "in it", Brain.

You deceive, you make allegations you can't/won't substantiate. You
humiliate yourself by claiming another person, known to be a pathological
liar,
as your "mentor".

There's no "challenge" there. You said these things. I didn't have
to
make this up.

Cellphones were nearly USELESS in the initial stages of the
attacks in NYC due to overload and loss of cell sites. This is
documented fact.

Nope. Lots of people used their cell phones. One even used his phone
to call home and leave a goodbye message to his wife on their
answereing machine.

He didn't use amateur radio or CW.

No, he didn't. I read those stories too. They were made before the
Towers fell and the system was still, essentially, in tact.

Why are you being an idiot? Was this a birth defect, or have you
been studying...???

You just cannot bring yourself to say that cellular telephones have
any use whatsoever in an emergency.

YOU are the person making that allegation, Lennie...I mean Brain...

I have already stated otherwise.

I can remember the names of every commanding officer or OIC I
served under in the USMC going back to my Series Commander in boot
camp in 1974. You can't pony-up a name of a guy you served in a war
zone with...?!?!

Forward location. Not a war zone though the VFW thinks so.

Ahhhhhh....an excuse. I see. OK.

Yes, there are. And they still depend on Amateur Radio
organizations to fill essential billets in EOC's.

Thus, military installations can work with their IMD to set up a BST
under MARS. Much better outcome than relying on people who CHOP
themselves to the ARC, Salvation Army, County EOC, CAP, Homeless
Shelter, Friends of the Library, and Bicycle Rodeos.

And the members of MARS who flesh out those BST's are.....

(1) CB users

(2) FRS/MURS owners

(3) Licensed Amateur Radio operators

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

When was the last time YOU were in an EOC as a functionary,
Brain? When was the last time you participated in ANY disaster
mitigation exercise in ANY role?

I do enough on the job re mitigation.

You mean yo stay out of everyone else's way...?!?!

GOOD FOR YOU!

You and Dee simply cannot accept that an unlicensed service has
played
a major role in emergency comms.

What "unlicensed service"...?!?! CB? FRS? MURS? Part 15
compliant devices?

Sure. Why not?

OK, Brain...YOUR "scenario" was "that an unlicensed service has
played a major role in emergency comms".

Now...provide me with some example of one of those "unlicensed
services" playing a "major role".

To ME, at least, "major role" means that SOME sort of crucial
event was dependent upon one of those "services" being able to render
a meaningful, positive outcome.

So...YOU put it out there, let's see you come up with some
pertinent examples.

And remember, Brain, "major" was YOUR adjective...NOT mine.

I'm just so happy that you finally acknowledged that mere cell phones
play a major role in disaster communications. Or did you?

I said they played a role...just like Amateur Radio does.

Now...You made some silly assertions that I've asked you to
substantiate.

You got the cajones to come up with valid answers, or are we to
be treated to more of your lame sandlot excuses...???

You completely quoted all of that, Brain, but didn't answer a single
bit
of it...even facetiously...

Ya did a GOOD JOB of validating my assumption of your lack of valid
argument and lack of cajones to do so...

Remember, Brain...we're using YOUR adjectives of "MAJOR ROLE" in
disaster
and/or emergency communications.

So far, the only "role" you've been able to cite is Joe Average
calling
9-1-1 to report an emergency. That is NOT "emergency comms".

I WANT TO KNOW what ROLE those unlicensed services play in
disaster
mitigation EMERGENCY COMMUNICATIONS....

Thanks.

Steve, K4YZ


Steve, you need to tone it down a bit. You're being rude and
obnoxious. I'll not respond to your insanity in-kind. Best of luck
to you.

He can't tone it down. No control there. Obsessive personal
necessity to go off on an emotional bender every time someone
hints at disagreeing with him and his "pride" about his personal
activities which he deems far superior to what others do.

The unfortunate part is that his lack of emotional control in post
after post makes the hobby look bad to others. He can't see
that and refuses to recognize it, so we all get to see the name-
calling and damning epithets directed against others.

LHA / WMD

William wrote:

JJ wrote in message ...

William wrote:


JJ wrote in message ...


William wrote:



I would hazard a quess that the average American Citizen DOES know
someone with a cell phone. Cell phones are almost ubiquitous, so much
so that they are annoyances. 100 million subscriptions, 265 million
people. You do the math.

And the network becomes useless in an emergency,


Stop right there.

In every emergency ever, the cell network always becomes useless?

As far as millitary and civil authorities are concerned for official
emergency comms... a big *yes*.


Are you the SECDEF? Are you the Director of FEMA?

You paint with a broad brush and without authority.

That makes it grafitti.

I suggest you call NORAD/NORTHCOM, FEMA, The Red Cross, Civil
Defense,and other emergency agencies and ask them how much weight they
place on the cell phone system for emergency comms in times of a major
disaster.

William wrote:

JJ wrote in message ...

Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:



But NOT for the types of communications that were supported by Amateur
Radio...that's the PURPOSE of Amateur Radio...to relieve those other services
of having to worry about that.

Lets see if in the next emergency when another service is needed to
relieve other services, which the emergency officials call on first for
relief, lenny and witless william with their gameboy cell phones, or ham
radio.
Try as they may to discredit ham radio's usefullness in such times, the
military and civil authorities consider ham radio to be viable means of
communications in emergencies, but not the cell network.


JayJay, I happen to be an amateur. I have equipment. I have been
trained.

I am available should the need arise.

I do not discredit amateur radio's usefulness in such times.

Yet you greatly discredit the impact that cellular telephones have
made on emergency communications.

Because in a major disaster calling for emergency comms, the cell
network will be, far all practical purposes, useless. The emergency
officials will not rely on the cell network for major comms during an
emergency. In addition to the communication ability of military and
civil services, they will rely on Amateur Radio if it is needed, and
Amateur Radio will be there if needed. If a service is needed to
suplement other comms, they will not call on or count on the cell phone
network, they will call on Amateur Radio.

Len Over 21 wrote:


Since the
hijackers had control of civil airways radios on that fourth plane,
the only available means of communications for the passengers
was by cell phone. Those calls got through.

Of course those calls got through dimwit, the plane was in the air away
from any city that was experiencing a disaster, and any number of cell
sites that were not overloaded with thousands attempting dial 911, their
friends, ect., were available.
Do you think if that call had been attempted in NYC it would have gotten
through? Maybe, but more than likely not.

JJ wrote in message ...
Len Over 21 wrote:


Since the
hijackers had control of civil airways radios on that fourth plane,
the only available means of communications for the passengers
was by cell phone. Those calls got through.

Of course those calls got through

And that is the point. An emergency call got through. They get
through every day using cellular phones.

dimwit,

Interesting how you smart guys always end up calling people names.
That usually happens about the time they run out of valid arguments.

the plane was in the air away
from any city that was experiencing a disaster, and any number of cell
sites that were not overloaded with thousands attempting dial 911, their
friends, ect., were available.
Do you think if that call had been attempted in NYC it would have gotten
through? Maybe, but more than likely not.

Hmmm. So passengers on airlines should not use cell phones in
emergencies. Every passenger flight should contain one Air Marshall
and one Amateur Radio Operator to handle whatever emergency comes up.

JJ wrote in message ...
William wrote:

JJ wrote in message ...

William wrote:


JJ wrote in message ...


William wrote:



I would hazard a quess that the average American Citizen DOES know
someone with a cell phone. Cell phones are almost ubiquitous, so much
so that they are annoyances. 100 million subscriptions, 265 million
people. You do the math.

And the network becomes useless in an emergency,


Stop right there.

In every emergency ever, the cell network always becomes useless?

As far as millitary and civil authorities are concerned for official
emergency comms... a big *yes*.


Are you the SECDEF? Are you the Director of FEMA?

You paint with a broad brush and without authority.

That makes it grafitti.

I suggest you call NORAD/NORTHCOM, FEMA, The Red Cross, Civil
Defense,and other emergency agencies and ask them how much weight they
place on the cell phone system for emergency comms in times of a major
disaster.

I suggest you tell Average Citizen that he or she needs to have an
amateur radio operator strapped to their hip for emergency purposes.

Until they buy into your argument in large numbers, cellular
telephones will continue to eclipse amateur radio for Average Citizens
emergency communications.

JJ wrote in message ...
William wrote:

JJ wrote in message ...

Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:



But NOT for the types of communications that were supported by Amateur
Radio...that's the PURPOSE of Amateur Radio...to relieve those other services
of having to worry about that.

Lets see if in the next emergency when another service is needed to
relieve other services, which the emergency officials call on first for
relief, lenny and witless william with their gameboy cell phones, or ham
radio.
Try as they may to discredit ham radio's usefullness in such times, the
military and civil authorities consider ham radio to be viable means of
communications in emergencies, but not the cell network.


JayJay, I happen to be an amateur. I have equipment. I have been
trained.

I am available should the need arise.

I do not discredit amateur radio's usefulness in such times.

Yet you greatly discredit the impact that cellular telephones have
made on emergency communications.

Because in a major disaster calling for emergency comms, the cell
network will be, far all practical purposes, useless.

You have only one size of emergency: Huge!

That's laughable.

The emergency
officials will not rely on the cell network for major comms during an
emergency.

Hint: They will if it is useful for them to do so. Should the
network fail, they will resort to other means.

In addition to the communication ability of military and
civil services, they will rely on Amateur Radio if it is needed,

So Amateur Radio isn't their first choice? How sad.

and
Amateur Radio will be there if needed.

Perhaps it will and perhaps it won't. That is the nature of
volunteers. And if you're radio volunteers are also committed to
numerous other emergency and quasi-emergency relief agencies, and your
emergency is Huge, and if the cellular network is down, and if the
agency wireless communications fail, Then and only then will you learn
if Amatuer Radio was there when needed.

If a service is needed to
suplement other comms, they will not call on or count on the cell phone
network, they will call on Amateur Radio.

Because all emergencies are Huge!

"William" wrote in message
om...
JJ wrote in message
...

I suggest you tell Average Citizen that he or she needs to have an
amateur radio operator strapped to their hip for emergency purposes.

Until they buy into your argument in large numbers, cellular
telephones will continue to eclipse amateur radio for Average Citizens
emergency communications.

You make the mistake by considering all emergencies to be equal. They are
not. Cell phone is great for communicating when you go off the road in an
ice storm. It is useless when all the local cell towers have been taken out
by a hurricane. Emergency communications need to be appropriate to the
situation. Nothing more and nothing less.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

William wrote:
JJ wrote in message ...

William wrote:


JJ wrote in message ...


William wrote:



JJ wrote in message ...



William wrote:




I would hazard a quess that the average American Citizen DOES know
someone with a cell phone. Cell phones are almost ubiquitous, so much
so that they are annoyances. 100 million subscriptions, 265 million
people. You do the math.

And the network becomes useless in an emergency,


Stop right there.

In every emergency ever, the cell network always becomes useless?

As far as millitary and civil authorities are concerned for official
emergency comms... a big *yes*.


Are you the SECDEF? Are you the Director of FEMA?

You paint with a broad brush and without authority.

That makes it grafitti.

I suggest you call NORAD/NORTHCOM, FEMA, The Red Cross, Civil
Defense,and other emergency agencies and ask them how much weight they
place on the cell phone system for emergency comms in times of a major
disaster.


I suggest you tell Average Citizen that he or she needs to have an
amateur radio operator strapped to their hip for emergency purposes.

Where did I speak of the average citizen?

Until they buy into your argument in large numbers, cellular
telephones will continue to eclipse amateur radio for Average Citizens
emergency communications.

So they may, but in times of emergency, the military and other civil
authorites will not rely on cell phones to handle major emergency
communications. They will rely on Amateur Radio if the need arises and
AR can supplement military or other civil emergency comms, but they will
not rely on the cell network.

Witless Willie splutterd again and said:


So Amateur Radio isn't their first choice? How sad.

So who said it was?

and

Amateur Radio will be there if needed.


Perhaps it will and perhaps it won't. That is the nature of
volunteers. And if you're radio volunteers are also committed to
numerous other emergency and quasi-emergency relief agencies, and your
emergency is Huge, and if the cellular network is down, and if the
agency wireless communications fail, Then and only then will you learn
if Amatuer Radio was there when needed.

I have never seen the Amateur Radio community fail to responed when needed.

If a service is needed to

suplement other comms, they will not call on or count on the cell phone
network, they will call on Amateur Radio.


Because all emergencies are Huge!

You said that, I didn't.

In article ,
(William) writes:

JJ wrote in message
...
William wrote:

JJ wrote in message
...

Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:

But NOT for the types of communications that were supported by
Amateur
Radio...that's the PURPOSE of Amateur Radio...to relieve those other
services
of having to worry about that.

Lets see if in the next emergency when another service is needed to
relieve other services, which the emergency officials call on first for
relief, lenny and witless william with their gameboy cell phones, or ham
radio.
Try as they may to discredit ham radio's usefullness in such times, the
military and civil authorities consider ham radio to be viable means of
communications in emergencies, but not the cell network.


JayJay, I happen to be an amateur. I have equipment. I have been
trained.

I am available should the need arise.

I do not discredit amateur radio's usefulness in such times.

Yet you greatly discredit the impact that cellular telephones have
made on emergency communications.

Because in a major disaster calling for emergency comms, the cell
network will be, far all practical purposes, useless.

You have only one size of emergency: Huge!

That's laughable.

It may be all he has that is huge...

The emergency
officials will not rely on the cell network for major comms during an
emergency.

Hint: They will if it is useful for them to do so. Should the
network fail, they will resort to other means.

In addition to the communication ability of military and
civil services, they will rely on Amateur Radio if it is needed,

So Amateur Radio isn't their first choice? How sad.

Tsk, tsk, tsk...another Legend of the Airwaves down in flames.

and
Amateur Radio will be there if needed.

Perhaps it will and perhaps it won't. That is the nature of
volunteers. And if you're radio volunteers are also committed to
numerous other emergency and quasi-emergency relief agencies, and your
emergency is Huge, and if the cellular network is down, and if the
agency wireless communications fail, Then and only then will you learn
if Amatuer Radio was there when needed.

Our AA has already been through all that...in his mind.

If a service is needed to
suplement other comms, they will not call on or count on the cell phone
network, they will call on Amateur Radio.

Because all emergencies are Huge!

And the ARRL said so, nyah, nyah! :-) :-) :-)

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(William) writes:

JJ wrote in message
...
Len Over 21 wrote:

Since the
hijackers had control of civil airways radios on that fourth plane,
the only available means of communications for the passengers
was by cell phone. Those calls got through.

Of course those calls got through

And that is the point. An emergency call got through. They get
through every day using cellular phones.

dimwit,

Interesting how you smart guys always end up calling people names.
That usually happens about the time they run out of valid arguments.

Emotional ham-lifestylers do that sort of thing regularly in here.

This anonymous anamalous poster seems unaware of the civil
airways communications capabilities of air carriers ("radios on
airliners"). He (or she, unknown) could have mentioned that and
a single button-press for the Transponder "squawk" signal. That
would have been a knowledgeable retort. But, those don't work
for spit if hijackers have taken over the cockpit.

the plane was in the air away
from any city that was experiencing a disaster, and any number of cell
sites that were not overloaded with thousands attempting dial 911, their
friends, ect., were available.

Our friend AA seems to think that "911" is a national network...an
overload in NYC is going to disable Jersey City or Anchorage? :-)

Do you think if that call had been attempted in NYC it would have gotten
through? Maybe, but more than likely not.

Hmmm. So passengers on airlines should not use cell phones in
emergencies. Every passenger flight should contain one Air Marshall
and one Amateur Radio Operator to handle whatever emergency comes up.

Sounds like a Plan! Send that to Dave Sumner (ARRL executive
president for life). He can make a dandy Editorial on that.

On-board Emergency Hams can wear a little shield in a wallet just
like real cops. In-flight attendants can ask other passengers,
"Coffee, tea, or health-and-welfare-messages?" :-)

LHA / WMD

Len Over 21 wrote:

emergency.

Hint: They will if it is useful for them to do so. Should the
network fail, they will resort to other means.

The military and civil authorities don't even consider the cell network
in there emergency communications plans, they know it is too unreliable,
they do consider Amateur Radio.

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message gy.com...
"William" wrote in message
om...
JJ wrote in message
...

I suggest you tell Average Citizen that he or she needs to have an
amateur radio operator strapped to their hip for emergency purposes.

Until they buy into your argument in large numbers, cellular
telephones will continue to eclipse amateur radio for Average Citizens
emergency communications.

You make the mistake by considering all emergencies to be equal.

No I don't.

They are
not.

You won the door prize.

Cell phone is great for communicating when you go off the road in an
ice storm.

Actually, cell phones just might suck when you go off the road in an ice storm.

It is useless when all the local cell towers have been taken out
by a hurricane.

Has that ever happened? Name the storm.

Emergency communications need to be appropriate to the
situation.

Ding ding ding. Give that monkey a banana!

Nothing more and nothing less.

Has ham radio ever NOT gotten through? Did the ham survive that emergency?

Even in a total comm blackout, people do survive.

JJ wrote in message ...
Len Over 21 wrote:

emergency.

Hint: They will if it is useful for them to do so. Should the
network fail, they will resort to other means.

The military and civil authorities don't even consider the cell network
in there emergency communications plans, they know it is too unreliable,
they do consider Amateur Radio.

How do the civil and military authorities intend to be initially
notified that there is an emergency?

Send a runner?

I always had to carry a pager. Cellular telephones have mostly
replaced pagers.