In article ,
(William) writes:

JJ wrote in message
...
Len Over 21 wrote:

emergency.

Hint: They will if it is useful for them to do so. Should the
network fail, they will resort to other means.

The military and civil authorities don't even consider the cell network
in there emergency communications plans, they know it is too unreliable,
they do consider Amateur Radio.

How do the civil and military authorities intend to be initially
notified that there is an emergency?

There are several ways for military authorities to notify military
units. For long-distance notification there are "hard" circuits
which route through very dedicated, few-user systems via
military satellites, fiber-optic lines, copper lines, or microwave
radio relay. The VLF alert system for submarines is one such,
not using any morse code but rather encrypted data means.
The USAF has its own network as does the USN and USA.

Lower-level alerts can be issued through the DSN or Digital
Switched Network, in clear or encrypted, voice or data, to most
parts of the world where fixed or semi-fixed bases exist. Most
of the operation and maintenance of the DSN is done by USAF
and USA Signal units. DSN is a combination of plain old
telephone system (POTS in the unofficial acronym) and an
Internet-like data exchange. DSN is what fiction author Tom
Clancy calls "the invisible second telephone system." In that
regard the label is very close to the truth except that it is not
"invisible" on any military base or larger government installations.
Older DSN number directories appear on the civilian Internet
and DSN contact numbers are published openly on military and
government websites. DSN telephones and terminals can call
out to the commercial-civil telephone system with setup
authorization and firmware authenticators but the reverse is
seldom implemented.

NORAD has its own hardened system tied to many and
varied sensors, plus the DSN, as a specific example. Details
on the North American Defense Command are sensitive.

For civilian notification there are many and varied means,
beginning with the commercial-civil telephone infrastructure.
Beyond that is a very large assortment of communications
capabilities that varies with the urban complex arrangement
and local government organization. The fire departments of
the Greater Los Angeles area (all 24/7 professionals) have
dedicated circuits bypassing switch centers to each fire
house carrying alarm signals, voice, and some data to back
up voice sent as primary mode (time, destination, etc.).
Police departments in this Greater LA area also have
dedicated circuits not passing through telephone switch
centers, are not blocked by sudden telephone use.

Send a runner?

In the military that is still the final back-up "system." :-)

A form of this, ususally via land vehicle, has been done in
civilian sections. In the Northridge Earthquake here ten years
ago, utility companies had to send company cars to workers'
homes located in areas of severe damage since the POTS
lines were damaged; many off-duty utility workers were needed
for a quick, massive repair task of restoring utilities. A few
police cars aided in such "runner" duty. Notification that an
earthquake had occurred was NOT needed, however. :-)

Public safety vehicles equipped with PA (all police patrol cars
in this area, the PA also being the siren) are useable as wide-
area, mass notification. Most fire department engines also have
PA facilities onboard. That was done in 1971 in the San
Fernando Valley of Los Angeles after the Sylmar quake to warn
residents in the "downhill" side of the Van Norman Reservoir
to evacuate; officials feared the three earthen-wall reservoirs
might be breached by aftershocks and inundate a large area.

The old, "classical" means of widespread notification through
broadcast stations is still done. Both civil airways FAA centers
and USCG plus Harbor Control bases have done announcements
to all aircraft in the vicinity or all watercraft in the harbor area.
There are several private communications networks of larger
corporations here which can be used for alerting distant
locations of their installations and have done so in the past.
As an example, Rocketdyne Division of Rockwell International
had several kinds of links to the Santa Susanna Field
Laboratories (mostly for test telemetry) as well as to Atomics
International (plant a few miles away plus labs also at Santa
Susanna).

I always had to carry a pager. Cellular telephones have mostly
replaced pagers.

That depends on the local area. Here there is a mixture of both
plus private/commercial paging services. Pager base stations
are relatively narrowband and semi-automated, are relatively easy
to equip with uninterruptible power supplies. Those are quite
common in larger companies that have employees who must
normally work in many areas of a building complex.

Teledyne Electronics in Newbury Park, CA, was (still is,
presumably) rather far northwest along Highway 101 and had
capability to tie into the beginning of the big Condor Net in
1977-1978 on the 222 MHz ham band. Ostensibly that was
for "fire (brush firestorms) safety of the company" but the two
hams (John Memmen, manager, Harry Terraneau, Sr. Tech)
really had "other" uses for the several HTs. :-) That Net
had non-computer tone signalling and switching-routing, still
does. Harry had at least one HT on-charge with the receiver
open some of the time.

HTs in PDs and utilities are quite numerous and some of those
have varied alerting means such as tone signalling or actual data
sent over mobile terminals. The LAPD here has an "extension"
of patrol car radios in the personal body-worn HT with combination
speaker-mike sometimes clipped near the collar. Many LAPD
patrol cars carry data terminals for long, detailed announcements.
Usually used in ID of vehicles and drivers, those are useful for any
information that needs to be kept handy for referral.

Back a few decades when RCA Corporation was still in existance,
they had dedicated corporate lines locally tying four local RCA
complexes, one of them NBC western headquarters in Burbank.
Those were used for Teletype and a special PBX tie-in to the
telephone system for communications with RCA locations in the
eastern USA. Since RCA was also under contract to Bank of
America for data handling, they also had dedicated lines to San
Francisco B of A Hq. "Dedicated" lines do not pass through the
switch centers of POTS. That was in 1975 and some time in the
past but other corporations of today have extensive private
network facilities that are all useful for notification in real
emergencies. The General Motors assembly plant (last used
for Camaros and Firebirds) in the middle of Van Nuys, CA, had
its own network to component assembly plants elsewhere in order
to expedite manufacturing logistics. [closure by GM was due to
other economic reasons, nothing to do with communications, the
location is now a new mall area referred to as "the plant" - :-) ]

The number and variety of communications means, all useful in
an emergency of today is large and extensive. Details of the
civilian side of it can be discovered by anyone who cares to look.
The Auxilliary Communications Service (ACS) of the California
state Office of Emergency Services takes that into account as
does the OES itself. Any and all means of communications that
survive the onset of any emergency are all useful.

LHA / WMD

JJ wrote in message ...
William wrote:
JJ wrote in message ...

William wrote:


JJ wrote in message ...


William wrote:



JJ wrote in message ...



William wrote:




I would hazard a quess that the average American Citizen DOES know
someone with a cell phone. Cell phones are almost ubiquitous, so much
so that they are annoyances. 100 million subscriptions, 265 million
people. You do the math.

And the network becomes useless in an emergency,


Stop right there.

In every emergency ever, the cell network always becomes useless?

As far as millitary and civil authorities are concerned for official
emergency comms... a big *yes*.


Are you the SECDEF? Are you the Director of FEMA?

You paint with a broad brush and without authority.

That makes it grafitti.

I suggest you call NORAD/NORTHCOM, FEMA, The Red Cross, Civil
Defense,and other emergency agencies and ask them how much weight they
place on the cell phone system for emergency comms in times of a major
disaster.


I suggest you tell Average Citizen that he or she needs to have an
amateur radio operator strapped to their hip for emergency purposes.

Where did I speak of the average citizen?

That's who I've been speaking of all along. Do try to keep up.

Until they buy into your argument in large numbers, cellular
telephones will continue to eclipse amateur radio for Average Citizens
emergency communications.

So they may, but in times of emergency, the military and other civil
authorites will not rely on cell phones to handle major emergency
communications.

And it's always about the military and civil authorities, isn't it?

I am no longer an instrument of national policy. Are you?

They will rely on Amateur Radio if the need arises and
AR can supplement military or other civil emergency comms, but they will
not rely on the cell network.

They do and will continue to rely upon cellular telephones and pagers
for notification. Get used to it.

William wrote:




And it's always about the military and civil authorities, isn't it?

That is who will be handling the major comms during a major emergency,
not the AC with a cell phone on his hip.


They do and will continue to rely upon cellular telephones and pagers
for notification. Get used to it.

But they will not rely on cell phones to carry communications during a
major emergency, but they may rely on ham radio if needed, get used to it.

JJ wrote in message ...
William wrote:

And it's always about the military and civil authorities, isn't it?

That is who will be handling the major comms during a major emergency,
not the AC with a cell phone on his hip.

For what purpose are they handling the major comms?

They do and will continue to rely upon cellular telephones and pagers
for notification. Get used to it.

But they will not rely on cell phones to carry communications during a
major emergency, but they may rely on ham radio if needed, get used to it.

I've been used to that. But there's a new technology on board now. Get used to it.

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/19/2004 6:21 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

JJ wrote in message
...
Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:


But NOT for the types of communications that were supported by
Amateur
Radio...that's the PURPOSE of Amateur Radio...to relieve those other
services
of having to worry about that.

Lets see if in the next emergency when another service is needed to
relieve other services, which the emergency officials call on first for
relief, lenny and witless william with their gameboy cell phones, or ham
radio.
Try as they may to discredit ham radio's usefullness in such times, the
military and civil authorities consider ham radio to be viable means of
communications in emergencies, but not the cell network.

JayJay, I happen to be an amateur. I have equipment. I have been
trained.


You are licensed. The FCC says so.

You may have equipment. Anyone can buy it.

From the nature of the posts you have made ehre, I doubt that any training
you have had has been anything anyone would call "adequate".

I am available should the need arise.

I will go to bed comforted tonight knowing you're out there, Brain.

I do not discredit amateur radio's usefulness in such times.

That is not the truth. You've made grossly disparaging remarks in this
forum on several occassions.

Yet you greatly discredit the impact that cellular telephones have
made on emergency communications.

The point remains: The "emergency agencies" continue to make plans for
the use of Amateur Radio to help provide communication needs in the advent of
loss of regular telephony services...Not to use telephony if Amateur Radio
fails.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: JJ
Date: 3/19/2004 7:31 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

William wrote:

Yet you greatly discredit the impact that cellular telephones have
made on emergency communications.

Because in a major disaster calling for emergency comms, the cell
network will be, far all practical purposes, useless. The emergency
officials will not rely on the cell network for major comms during an
emergency. In addition to the communication ability of military and
civil services, they will rely on Amateur Radio if it is needed, and
Amateur Radio will be there if needed. If a service is needed to
suplement other comms, they will not call on or count on the cell phone
network, they will call on Amateur Radio.

I just spent my weekend sitting in the TEMA/FEMA EOC in Nashville

All I can say is...WHEW!

I know Brainless and Lennie will discount any likelyhood of my
objectivity, however I was impressed with TEMA's communications facilities.

Yes, the FEMA folks each carry a cellphone with them. There are NO
seperate cellphone facilities in the EOC, however.

The EOC has the capability of accessing any frequency from 1.8MHz to 2GHz
in a plethora of modes, secure and unsecure, to include military if necessary.
Many commercial assets can be accessed if required. Off-site remotes are
situated with almost all of the same capabilites in case of an attack or other
loss of use of the prime EOC.

There is a dedicated Amateur Radio packet station, HF station, two V/UHF
operating positions and third UHF position dedicated to the MTEARS net (Middle
Tennessee Emergency Amateur Radio Service) which is directly tied to NOAA and
carries the bulk of SKYWARN traffic in western and middle Tennessee.

Thier own HF facilites include operating positions for SHARES, FEMA's own
nets,

A dedicated position for CAP (Civil Air Patrol) is being added to "the
pit". Communications assets for CAP will eventually include HF, VHF,
air-to-ground, and a digital imaging site for the HSI (Hyper Spectral Imaging)
package CAP aircraft are being equipped with, as well as VHF slow scan video.

With the exception of two "cordless" telephones, a handful of TV remotes,
and three ISR (Intra Squad Radios, the federal version of FRS) HT's used to
talk to the guard shack and garage, there are NO "unlicensed" devices on the
facility. (The only "major" role the ISR radios might play is if they are used
by a commissioned O-4 in the Armed Forces.)

Speaking of "TV remotes", this place would put a lot of those "every
channel of sports" sports bars to shame! They even had channels dedicated to
foreign news services running.

When I asked about "CB" radio or "GMRS", I was told that there were no
plans to use either, that there was not even a usable GMRS repeater in the
area. Any REACT group that presented itself would be "tasked under the ARES EC,
however we would not allow anyone coming here on the heels of something major
to try an wiggle in to an existing plan. We've pretty well got our plans in
place, and there's NO plan for CB radio.

The gentleman that I spent most of these two days with is a member of the
board of APCO, or Association of Public-safety Communications Officials, so I
think I can reasonably assume him to be a bit more knowledgeable than certain
posters in this forum on the subject of "emergency comms"...

73

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/20/2004 7:06 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


Because all emergencies are Huge!

They are if they are happening to you.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/20/2004 4:59 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Because in a major disaster calling for emergency comms, the cell
network will be, far all practical purposes, useless.

You have only one size of emergency: Huge!

That's laughable.

It may be all he has that is huge...

Ahhhhh, yes...Lennie fires an opening volley of "personal perjorative",
the nature of which had certain underlying innuendo that he-himself has decried
others using in numerous past posts.

In addition to the communication ability of military and
civil services, they will rely on Amateur Radio if it is needed,

So Amateur Radio isn't their first choice? How sad.

Tsk, tsk, tsk...another Legend of the Airwaves down in flames.

It wasn't a legend to start with.

The "legend" status was bestowed by you. The rest is archived history.

Obviously one that is sufficiently true enough for CURRENT emergency
planners to continue to rely upon.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/21/2004 7:14 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

I suggest you tell Average Citizen that he or she needs to have an
amateur radio operator strapped to their hip for emergency purposes.

Where did I speak of the average citizen?

That's who I've been speaking of all along. Do try to keep up.

JJ...please take CAREEFUL note.

YOU were talking about disaster preparedness, those sets of plans in place
by your local or state EMA, FEMA, etc. And in the overall scheme of things,
you (and I) are correct.

Brain, on the other hand, having been UNABLE to successfully argue against
the value of Amateur Radio in those plans, has shifted his definition of
"emergency comms" to those of STRICTLY "the average citizen".

In the very narrow slice of "emergency comms" that Brian the Brainless has
wedged himself into, yes, John Q Public is going to whip out the old cellphone
and call 9-1-1 to get a cop, report a fire, or request EMS for an accident or
medical emergency...Just like he would have dialed a payphone 5 years ago.

In a true "disaster preparedness" mode, cellphones may suffer all of the
bad things that you and I have said they will.

THAT assertion is made upon the evidence that such incidents have ALREADY
HAPPENED, and those occurences have been sufficient to impress the REAL
"emergency comms" planners to continue to incorporate Amateur Radio in a wide
range of plans.

This is not "urban legend" or based upon some " feel good news release of
the ARRL" as Lennie the Loser would have us believe. Real, front-page news
stuff. Sorry he won't admit it, but that only helps to substantiate MY claims
about his "superior intellect".

So they may, but in times of emergency, the military and other civil
authorites will not rely on cell phones to handle major emergency
communications.

And it's always about the military and civil authorities, isn't it?

Uhhhhhhh....Brain....Other than "military" or "civilian", what other
categories are there?

I am no longer an instrument of national policy. Are you?

As long as my Right to Vote has not been revoked, you're danged tooting I
am!

Try again, blockhead.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/19/2004 6:09 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

JJ wrote in message
...


As far as millitary and civil authorities are concerned for official
emergency comms... a big *yes*.

Are you the SECDEF? Are you the Director of FEMA?

You paint with a broad brush and without authority.

That makes it grafitti.

He needs to be a governmenal official to paint now?

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: JJ
Date: 3/19/2004 11:33 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Len Over 21 wrote:



TAFKARJ claims that "CB" originated in 1946...except that
"11 meters" is not at 465 MHz. :-)

There was a band at that frequency that citizens could apply for and
use, thus a "citizens band" or "cb".

JJ...you'll have to forgive Lennie...He get's caught up in his own
rantings from time to time.

Even the 11 meter allocation was "officially" called the "Citizen's Radio
Service". The term "Citizen's Band" came much later.

Yes, "CB" generally refers to the 11 meter allocation, however Class D CB
IS afterall, just one subpart of Part 95. Your emergency plan scenario
that you are acting out this weekend is

that cell phones won't be working.

Am I wrong?

As far as using the cell network for official emergency comms, you can
consider it not working. In times of a major emergency it becomes
useless for anything but attempting to make a call.

Not in all cases, of course, but enough of them that the Big Dogs of
"emergency comms" plan for it's demise and have plans ready to implement in
case it happens.

It just eats away at Lennie and Brain's rants that those plans include
Amateur Radio to the degree that they do. No problem...Just makes them look
that much more foolish.

As if they NEEDED to look more foolish!

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/19/2004 7:21 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In the WTC Attack during 11 Sep 01, the NYC Emergency
Communications Center (in an adjacent building) was largely
destroyed by falling debris, also severing many trunk lines
of the telephone system. NYC police and fire units did work-
arounds using their own radios in a relay system to several
centrals, calling in other agencies as well as special units to
help. Some cell phone service did work, regardless of myth to
the contrary and some wired phone service still worked, used
by almost anyone on the WTC Attack scene. Amateur radio
did not play any significant part (if any at all) during the few
hours after the Attack on the WTC.

However Amateur Radio DID play a "major role" in the following DAYS of
post-incident recovery.

Not even the most 'diehard' Amateur Radio supporter suggests that Amateur
Radio is the "primary" source of emergency communications unless a ham just
happens to be "in the middle" of it and uses a radio to "call it in".

That HAS happened and CONTINUES to happen on a fairly regular basis.,
especially wilderness areas that have more trees than cellsites.

Which one, I have several, what are the odds they are all down at the
same time? How many cell phones do you have?

Since neither you nor your equipment is identified and we don't
know the working status of your "several" radios, the above is
just a brag claim of no intrinsic value.

Just as are YOUR numerous claims of having some sort of "monitoring
station" set up at home. Beyond a cordless telephone, TV, and TV remote, I
seriously doubt you to have anything capable of converting RF to AF.

I am far more likely to accept JJ's claims than yours. Especially since
I've enver seen him post anything that can be called anything even close to
untrue.

YOU, on the otherhand, are a bit on the "prolific" side of
mistruthful.......

As far as using the cell network for official emergency comms, you can
consider it not working. In times of a major emergency it becomes
useless for anything but attempting to make a call.

That is a popular myth but it remains only a myth.

It is not a myth. It has happened.

Anything that HAS occured is NOT a myth.

The cellular telephone network is part of the telephone infrastructure
and is intimately connected with the local exchange's switching unit.
That switching unit is designed to handle only a fraction of installed
numbers, both wireline and cell phone. But the switch itself is also
backed up by battery supplies "riding on" the primary power; also
true for cell sites themselves.

And for those cellsites that were in the path of an oncoming tornado?
Where is all that electrical energy going to, Lennie...???

During any sudden event there WILL be a flurry of telephone calls
made and that MAY overtax the limited number-handling capability
of the switch. ...(SNIP)

There HAVE been and HAS overtaxed...

The onset of the 11 Sep 01 Attack by four hijacked airliners was not
only sudden but unprecedented, without any possible warning. The
subsequent crash of two airliners into the WTC towers did destroy a
portion of the lower Manhattan telephone system wiring but did NOT
destroy or disable the entire Manhattan telephone infrastructure.

Just a signifcant part of the commercial wireless network and an entire
OES center...Ya know...the SMALL stuff...

The onset of a fire storm, typically in dry open country, is not sudden
and may take literal days from ignition start to reaching fire storm
conditions. There is plenty of warning time using conventional
communications means to begin fighting that.

Then why, if it's so "gradual" in evolution, does the CDF still employ
Amateurs to help them out..?!?!

(For everyone else, "CDF" is the California Department of Forestry...since
Lennie likes to brag on how avante garde Kalifonication is, I always like to
feed it back to him when the opportunity arises!)

Hurricanes are known and predicted from NOAA tracking, allow days
for all in the path to prepare. Again, communications may be done
by conventional means. Tornados are more sudden but allow hours
of preparation from first sighting. Storm and flood conditions allow
hours to days of preparation, again using conventional
communications to effect that.

Two major points:

NOAA, despite tons and tons of technology, STILL depends on hundreds of
Amateur Radio volunteers in it's SKYWARN program to provide real-time reports
to it's centers...To the point of spending a LOT of money to train Amateur
volunteers and to deploy facilities cap[able of communicating with them, both
on HF, V/UHF, and digital modes.

There is no reported evidence of amateur radio ever stopping an
earthquake, hurricane, tornado, flood, storm, or aircraft hijacking.

No, there's not.

However there ARE tons of articles on how Amateur Radio has been
part-and-parcel of the recovery phases of ALL of those various senarios...

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/19/2004 7:21 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article , JJ

writes:

Sure they do, but in the case of a 9/11 emergency they would be hard
pressed to use them. Cell phone are great during the planning, but when
the real emergency comes, they become useless for emergency comms.

Not always true.

You want to select the 11 September 2001 Attack on America as
a typical emergency but that was a very UNtypical emergency
that no one could foresee or plan for. In the "9/11" incident ALL
methods of communications were strained.

A point we can agree on.

There are NO verifiable stories about amateur radio doing anything
to aid anyone in the first few hours of the Attack in New York City
on 11 Sep 01. Conversely, even though the NYC Emergency
Center was almost destroyed in that Attack, police and fire
department personnel were in constant communications before and
immediately after the Attack in and around the World Trade Center.
Add to that the medical people, NYC officials, and various utilities
and other businesses who got into immediate action. All of that is
quite well documented in many and various media outside of
hobby groups.

Now THAT we CAN'T.

There have already been a half dozen recriminating "inquests" as to why
various communications failures occured with FDNY, NYPD, PAPF, EMS and othr
agencies.

THAT has been reported in "USA Today" and other nationwide media sources.

If they are licensed hams they might have. Why would they if they were
not licensed? Face it billyboy, for the real comms needed in an
emergency situation, the cell network is not considered by emergency
officials to be of use, they do consider ham radio.

"Officials" who have already been through emergencies of many kinds
consider and plan for ANY kind of communications in ANY kind of
emergency or disaster situation.

Yep.

And almost every plan from the Department of Defense on down to "Podunk
Hollow USA" have some provision for including (or at least considering)
implementing Amateur Radio as a recourse.

A case in point is the "other" "9/11" Attack on the Pentagon in DC....(Snip
to....)
After crash fire control and search and rescue was coordinated by on-
site military and civilian communications, not by amateur radio.

Lennie...why do you keep trying to make a point of this?

No one here has even remotely suggested that it was otherwise.

There are no viable
reports of amateur radio being used while that most definite
emergency situation was happening. (In reference to the 4th hijacking...SR)

No, there wasn't.

However Amateur Radio WAS employed in the post-incident recovery at the
site.

The "9/11" Attack is popular to espouse because of the enormous
emotional impact to all Americans. But, it was an ATTACK done
by other humans against all of us and definitely NOT some kind of
natural event emergency or disaster. The "kamikazi" nature of
this suicide attack was NOT anticipated by anyone and all were
in surprise and all had to work through the immediate aftermath
with whatever reseources were available.

Oh...so as long as the causal effect was "intentional", then we can
discount using Amateur Radio to receover from teh post incident effects,
Lennie...?!?!

Amateur radio is in the
tertiary level lumped in with CB, FRS, GMRS, and other private
radios...seldom organized to work with primary and secondary
levels and not depended upon as reliable for anything but health
and welfare (psychological reassurance) messaging for victims
after an emergency has occurred.

Oooooooooooooh! Lennie caught lying AGAIN!
It does no good to express outrage and perceived insult the radios
in an essentially-recreational activity isn't venerated or rewarded
for exaggerated tales of heroism and good deeds. That only shows
an emotional instability that refuses to consider the vast infra-
structure of communications that exists and is robust enough to
have survived many disasters and emergencies of the past.

If cell phones work in some future emergency, they WILL be used.
There are just too many of them, the cell infrastructure too large to
overlook them. Public Service radios are already organized and
backed up, networked, planned, trained to work in emergency
conditions. Those will bear the brunt of future emergency
communications as they have successfully in the past. In the USA
there exist many and varied wired and fiber communications means,
locally to nationally...plus a variety of frequencies, modes, and
methods already in-place with the military and national guards
units, able to use equipment designed and proven to work through
the harshest of all enviornments: Warfare. Everything that can
work is useable and has been used, emergency planners and
coordinators already well aware of what is available and reliable.

This isn't the 1920s when "radio" was not widespread nor
technologically advanced, suitable only for some broadcasting
and on-off keying mode communications. This is 80 years later,
over three generations of time, and "radios" are numerous in the
governmental and commercial infrastructure. It would be best to
stop the self-perceived outrage at your hobby being slighted to
educate yourself on the entire world of "radio," what is there and
how it is being used and planned-for in real emergencies.

LHA / WMD

rom: (William)
Date: 3/20/2004 6:46 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

JJ wrote in message
...
Len Over 21 wrote:


Since the
hijackers had control of civil airways radios on that fourth plane,
the only available means of communications for the passengers
was by cell phone. Those calls got through.

Of course those calls got through

And that is the point. An emergency call got through. They get
through every day using cellular phones.

dimwit,

Interesting how you smart guys always end up calling people names.
That usually happens about the time they run out of valid arguments

Well, you DO try a bit harder than the average "dimwit", Brain...

You DO try to skew the discussion into parameters that acutally FIT your
rant, even if the original discussion did not include them!

It's rather apparent and foolish since you usually get caught, but I give
you an "A" for effort!

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/19/2004 7:21 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

The unfortunate part is that his lack of emotional control in post
after post makes the hobby look bad to others. He can't see
that and refuses to recognize it, so we all get to see the name-
calling and damning epithets directed against others.

No "epithets' , damning or otherwise being directed here, Lennie.

Your personal marionette made a claim that the "unlicensed" services play
a "major role" (his adjectives, not mine) in "emergency comms".

I've asked him repeatedly to validate his claims with SOME form of proof.
He has failed to do so.

No proof = intentional mistruth.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/20/2004 6:49 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(William) writes:

Steve, you need to tone it down a bit. You're being rude and
obnoxious. I'll not respond to your insanity in-kind. Best of luck
to you.

He can't tone it down. No control there. Obsessive personal
necessity to go off on an emotional bender every time someone
hints at disagreeing with him and his "pride" about his personal
activities which he deems far superior to what others do.

The unfortunate part is that his lack of emotional control in post
after post makes the hobby look bad to others. He can't see
that and refuses to recognize it, so we all get to see the name-
calling and damning epithets directed against others.

LHA / WMD

Being a Nurse, he probably has an excellent health plan that he could
use to get well. But admitting a problem is the first step.

What problem?

Not tolerating liars and fools?

Brain...YOU made an assertion of fact.

I have asked you (several times) to validate it. You have refused or
ignored it.

Your only "response" is to insinuate that I am "out of control" or
otherwise being "obnoxious".

I guess if I were making as equally assinine assertions in a public forum
and then being tasked to prove my "facts' and was unable, I'd be as equally
anxious to get the tiger off my tail too!

As far as I am concerned we can go ahead and drop it at this point. Your
obfuscation and attempts to dodge taking responsibility have only proven MY
contention that you are neither a knowledgeable person when it comes to Amateur
Radio, but that you are purposefully mistruthful.

You have made assertions that you cannot substantiate.

People who ARE in a position to know better know that your suggerstion of
"unlicensed" services playing some "major role" in "emergency comms" is
laughable at best.

Coming from Amateur Radio's OTHER court jester, I'd expect nothing less.
You and Lennie make a cute couple!

Steve, K4YZ



No problem.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/19/2004 6:14 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

But I wonder how he'd react to reading posts written by a like-named
person who tries to embellish his military "career" by associating himself
with
men who were KIA 3 years before you were in the Armed Forces...?!?!

It isn't called the "Armed Forces" for nothing. It is the nature of
what we do that associates us with KIA.

Only a callous idiot like you would try to rationalize what Lennie did as
"OK".

Claiming some fraternalism or professing to not break the chain of trust
and honor among Soliders is one thing...THAT is part of the Armed Forces.

Trying to embellish one's own personal "achivements" (or lack thereof)
based upon someone else's sacrifices is absolutely callous and cruel.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/19/2004 6:16 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

I know only one Steve Roberson and he's nuts.

Well..."Steve Roberson" MAY be nuts.

I am not.

YOU, on the other hand, are not truthful.

Steve, K4YZ

William wrote:


I've been used to that. But there's a new technology on board now. Get used to it.

Which isn't even a consideration in the military or civil authorities
plans for use in emergency comms during a major disaster...ham radio is.
Get used to it.

Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:



From the nature of the posts you have made ehre, I doubt that any training
you have had has been anything anyone would call "adequate".

Not so, he has been trained to program every emergency number he could
possibably need into his cell phone speed dial. However when the cell
network is either down or so overloaded because of everyone attempting
to call home to say, "I'm ok turn on your tv", that he can't get a call
through, he can use his cell phone to play games until the emergency is
over.

JJ wrote in message ...
Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:

From the nature of the posts you have made ehre, I doubt that any training
you have had has been anything anyone would call "adequate".

Not so, he has been trained to program every emergency number he could
possibably need into his cell phone speed dial.

Good grief! Why wouldn't I just dial 911?

However when the cell
network is either down or so overloaded because of everyone attempting
to call home to say, "I'm ok turn on your tv", that he can't get a call
through, he can use his cell phone to play games until the emergency is
over.

Ever notice how immense those pyramid alert rosters get at the bottom?

Actually, the network goes down trying to notify enough amateur
volunteers who signed on but really aren't available.

JJ wrote in message ...
William wrote:


I've been used to that. But there's a new technology on board now. Get used to it.

Which isn't even a consideration in the military or civil authorities
plans for use in emergency comms during a major disaster

It must be or they wouldn't have a cellphone hanging off every hip.

William wrote:

JJ wrote in message ...

William wrote:


I've been used to that. But there's a new technology on board now. Get used to it.

Which isn't even a consideration in the military or civil authorities
plans for use in emergency comms during a major disaster


It must be or they wouldn't have a cellphone hanging off every hip.

They are not going to rely on that cell phone for their major comms
during an emergency. The cell network is not included in disaster plans
as a viable means for emergency comms during a major disaster by the
military and civil emergency authorities, ham radio is.

William wrote:



While I realize that a family planning for disaster doesn't get to be
on a recall roster at the State Police or ARC, they don't get armbands
and it's not glamorous and they don't get awards and citations for it,
EVERY FAMILY IN A DISASTER AREA WHO DOES NOT DRAIN STATE AND FEDERAL
EMERGENCY RESOURCES IS AN ASSET IN THAT EMERGENCY.

Emergencies aren't just about continuity of government for crying out
loud!

Every family should have a disaster kit, the FEMA site list those items
that should be included in the kit. They list a portable,
battery-powered radio or television and extra batteries.
Nowhere do they list a cell phone, though they do state you should have
a list of phone numbers of places you could go to. I would certainly
think one would take their cell phone in an emergency. Families or
individuals will be using the cell phone for their own purposes, the
military and civil emergency authorities will not be relying on the cell
network as their primary, secondary or even third source for emergency
comms as the cell network will, it it is working, be overloaded by those
families and other individuals try to figure out where they should go,
what they should do, calling relatives and friends to see if they are
OK, ect.
If an emergency official can use his cell phone to communicate he will,
but he is not going to count on it as his primary ability to communicate
with other emergency personel.
The cell network may well play an important part for communication for
the AC, but not for military and civil emergency comms. Ham radio can
and will it needed.

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/22/2004 6:09 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/19/2004 6:14 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

Only a callous idiot like you would try to rationalize what Lennie did
as
"OK".

Your brain is squirming like a toad thinking up ways to discredit Len.

"Your brain is squirming like a toad"...?!?!

You're going to have to do better than that, Brain. Day-tripping back to
the 60's again...?!?!

Lennie discredited himself...I didn't have to put ANY effort into it at
all.

Claiming some fraternalism or professing to not break the chain of
trust
and honor among Soliders is one thing...THAT is part of the Armed Forces.

Congrations, we are in complete agreement somehow.

Obviously not, otherwise you wouldn't have pulled that "squirming"
silliness out of one orifice or another...

Trying to embellish one's own personal "achivements" (or lack thereof)
based upon someone else's sacrifices is absolutely callous and cruel.

Yet you do everything possible to get back into some kind, any kind, of
uniform.

Everyone wears a uniform of some kind, Brain. I can't think of too many
jobs that don't have dress code of one form or another.

Why?

Why not? There is something wrong with any of the organizations I belong
to?

Better yet...What organizations do YOU belong to, Brain?

Who pulls your strings when Lennie isn't pulling them?

Do you think that it will embellish one's own personal achievements?

Unlike Lennie, the "embellishments" are my own. I don't need to stand on
anyone's grave.

Do you?

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/22/2004 6:26 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

JJ wrote in message
...
Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:

From the nature of the posts you have made ehre, I doubt that any
training
you have had has been anything anyone would call "adequate".

Not so, he has been trained to program every emergency number he could
possibably need into his cell phone speed dial.

Good grief! Why wouldn't I just dial 911?

Because 9-1-1 (...NOT "911") is not always who you need to call.

Not every call to Fire, Police or EMS rates a 9-1-1 response.

Do you know the difference? Do you KNOW what's an "emergency" as opposed
to urgent or routine...?!?!

However when the cell
network is either down or so overloaded because of everyone attempting
to call home to say, "I'm ok turn on your tv", that he can't get a call
through, he can use his cell phone to play games until the emergency is
over.

Ever notice how immense those pyramid alert rosters get at the bottom?

Actually, the network goes down trying to notify enough amateur
volunteers who signed on but really aren't available.

Most of the "amateur volunteers" I know have scanners, pagers and radios
on...No cellphone necessary.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/22/2004 6:32 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
rom: (William)
Date: 3/20/2004 6:46 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

It's rather apparent and foolish since you usually get caught, but I
give
you an "A" for effort!

You've been busted.

You're the one who """quotes""" people, but rewrites the quote to
serve your misguided purposes.

The only things "busted" here, Brain, are your lame attempts to deflect
from your glaring misrepresentations of truth and assinine offerings of
allegiance to a person known for chronic lying.

I am truly sorry that you cannot keep up with current events, Brain, but
your suggestion that I somehow plagerized anything the Left Coast Creep did
is...well...lame.

Now...If you care to spend the effort to do so, you can try and "prove"
that I plagarized Lennie, especially with the "typo = rage" silliness that you
two seem to think is appropriate.

Then I will produce numerous posts, with all pertinent headers, wherein I
explicitly made reference to Lennie in throwing the typo silliness back at you.
I will THEN have even MORE "ammunition" with which to tweak your nose,
Brain....(Not that I need any more, but if you insist on giving it to me, I
will use it...)


Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/22/2004 6:43 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Emergencies aren't just about continuity of government for crying out
loud!

Oh?

Brain, WHO, in the advent of a major disaster, is going to make sure that
food get's delivered, that the lights are back on ASAP, or that the water
supply is protected...?!?! Who's going to make sure the hospital has
resources, or that the police or other security services are going to be there
to protect your home? (yeahyeah...I know you're gonna give me that "dead, cold
fingers" routine about personal firearms...I have a couple, but I can only hit
so many targets so quickly and for so long...)

Just one more example of what you DON'T know about emergency preparedness,
Brain, altho I will marginally agree with your comment that those who don't
drain disaster assets are themself an asset.

However, you should note on the FEMA and State EMA websites that they
ask for the Average Citizen to make plans -and- preparations in the
event of a disaster.

Yes, they do...

And except for Mormons and the reasonably "well off", I don't know of too
many people who can stockpile food for more than a week's rations or can leave
the disaster area for the cottage in the mountains so as to NOT be a drain on
those assets.

But since you brought it up, Brain, if "the big one" (enter any disaster
of your choice shy of total destruction he_____________) should hit YOUR
town, how many hours/days/weeks can you keep YOUR family from needing ANY of
those services?

Your turn.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/22/2004 6:53 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/21/2004 7:14 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

And it's always about the military and civil authorities, isn't it?

Uhhhhhhh....Brain....Other than "military" or "civilian", what other
categories are there?

Steve, please notice the correct quote would be, "And it's always
about the military and civil authorities, isn't it?"

Please notice the word, "authorities" in my statement.

Your brain is squirming like a toad. You twist my words as you do
sooooooo many other things.

I don't need to "twist (your) words", Brain. They speak for themselves.
If you find that I am tripping you up with them, perhaps you should choose them
more carefully?

Your correct paraphrase should be (if you were an honest person),

"""Uhhhhhhh....Brain....Other than "military authorities" or "civilian
authorities", what other categories are there?"""

Honesty is not a problem in this case, Brain.

Having once again exposed your failings, you look for a scapegoat. Look
in the mirror.

I reply, The citizens. WE THE PEOPLE! Ever heard of them?

Yep...I'm one of them.

So, now you're going to make this a debate over Constitutional
definitions?

Unable to make headway here, so you're shifting gears again? OK...If not
for the elected government or the Armed Forces, who should be responsible for
community-wide emergency preparedness? I already agree that each family should
take it's own initiative...we're talking about restoring the lights, providing
fresh water, making sure that the community is secure...

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/22/2004 7:02 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/20/2004 6:49 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

I have asked you (several times) to validate it. You have refused or
ignored it.

No, Steve, I have responded to your twisted up "quote" of me. It
shows you to be the liar that you are and shows that you manipulated
my statement in a deliberate and deceitful way.

Untrue, Brain.

You've not responded to the SPECIFIC question of what MAJOR role the
unlicensed services play in "emergency comms"

That's a very specific question, one you've NOT addressed.

There's nothing twisted or manipulated...YOU said that these other
services "play a major role"...I've asked you to provide specifics.

You haven't.

I even created a specific thread trying to prompt you to answer it.

All you do is call me names and accuse me of being "nuts".

Then you make accusations based upon your misquote, and attack,
attack, attack.

There's no "attack", Brain. You make assertions you can't/won't back up
with some sort of corroboration.

If you are tired of getting your toes stepped on, perhaps you shouldn't be
sticking them out where they can get stepped on...?!?!

You've done it again more recently.

You take the prize.

I have shown you to be that which you loathe.

Self-hatred is an unhealthy thing. Think about counseling.

It's "counselling", Brain, and what I loathe are people like you and
Lennie.

Try again, PuppetBoy.

Perhaps you'll come up with something believeable this time.....

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/23/2004 9:47 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

I have shown you to be that which you loathe.

Self-hatred is an unhealthy thing. Think about counseling.

It's "counselling", Brain, and what I loathe are people like you and
Lennie.

Then wave your arms around, invoke the magic incantation, and
the world will be remade entirely to your desires.

Your imaginary world will be even better than you dreamed!

I again ask you as to which "imaginary" world you refer...?!?!

The one in which I am a licensed Amateur Radio operator? (oooopps! FCC
says I AM a licensed Amateur operator)

Or the one in which I am a licensed aviator? (oooop again! The FAA says
I got one of them, too!)

Perhaps you meant the imaginary world where I am a licensed nurse? (DRAT!
Got one active and two inactive licenses which says THAT'S true too!) I also
have the documents attesting to my participation in EMS (including past
licenses from California) and current endorsements in Advanced Cardiac Life
Support and Pediatric Advanced Life Support.

Anything else...?!?!

Meanwhile, back in REALITY, you will find that Webster's New
World Compact School and Office Dictionary allows the spelling
of the verb transitive form of "counsel" to be either 'counselling'
or 'counseling.' One or two Ls.

Either way, try to get some...mental health counsel.

Either way YOU care to spell it, Lennie, I am not the one in this forum
that is in need of it. That would be reserved for the guy who has no vested
interest in the Amateur Radio Service (or claims he doesn't, anyway) yet
persists in antagonizing those who do.

You and the rest of us will be aided by such.

Go waste someone else's time if you don't.

Remind me of your Amateur licensure again, Lennie?

WHOSE time is being wasted here?

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/23/2004 9:47 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

It just eats away at Lennie and Brain's rants that those plans include
Amateur Radio to the degree that they do. No problem...Just makes them look
that much more foolish.

Not at all. Both Brian and I have explained what is actually used
in emergency communications and by what means.

No, what Brain has "explained" is nothing at all.

Brain has asserted that the unlicensed radio services play a "major role"
in "emergency comms", but ahs yet to provide even the first example or
reference of thier use.

The "degree to which amateur radio is used" is a secondary role,
one of several fall-back methods to use in case of loss of one or
more of the primaries. The primary method is use of existing
infrastructure and public safety services' communications already
in existance.

Yep. No one has claimed otherwise.

What is "foolish" is all the preening and posturing about your
self-defined "importance in emergencies" from having been granted
a license in what is basically an avocational radio activity, a hobby.

There's not "preening" or "posturing" here, Lennie.

I would suggest a check of your vision. You have lost perspective
in viewing amateur radio in the very large picture of other radio
services. You are exhibiting mental tunnel vision. Not good for you.

What I "saw" (or rather DIDN'T see..) was that neither Leonard H. Anderson
or Brian Burke were participants or consultants at Heartland Response 04. This
was a major effort put on by FEMA and TEMA and did involve several radio
services or nets, including Civil Air Patrol, ARES and SHARES. It included
agencies from four states and had observers from both the Pentagon and the
White House in addition to those agencies already cited.

Good for me since I was in the middle of it and had one heck of a good
time.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: JJ
Date: 3/23/2004 9:51 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Len Over 21 wrote:

I would suggest a check of your vision. You have lost perspective
in viewing amateur radio in the very large picture of other radio
services. You are exhibiting mental tunnel vision. Not good for you.

Maybe you need to have your tired old eyes checked, I am sure the nurse
at the home there can set up an appointment for you. Have you noticed
that you are less than nothing in the scheme of amateur radio and
emergency comms?

Unfortunately, JJ, he hasn't.

Lennie still perceives himself as an "associate editor" of a long-since
failed Amateur Radio magazine, and assumes since he once shared coffee with
people who ARE licensed Amateurs that he somehow posseses practical skills and
knowledge that they do.

He reminds me of the folks who occassionally show up in the emergency room
and presume themselves to know something about emergency medicine or nursing
based upon watching re-runs of "E.R."...

Close...no cigar...

73

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/23/2004 9:47 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

In article , JJ

writes:

Sure they do, but in the case of a 9/11 emergency they would be hard
pressed to use them. Cell phone are great during the planning, but when
the real emergency comes, they become useless for emergency comms.

Not always true.

You want to select the 11 September 2001 Attack on America as
a typical emergency but that was a very UNtypical emergency
that no one could foresee or plan for. In the "9/11" incident ALL
methods of communications were strained.

A point we can agree on.

That isn't up for any discussion.

OW!...Lennie can't stand being agreed with!

THAT had to hurt!

There are NO verifiable stories about amateur radio doing anything
to aid anyone in the first few hours of the Attack in New York City
on 11 Sep 01. Conversely, even though the NYC Emergency
Center was almost destroyed in that Attack, police and fire
department personnel were in constant communications before and
immediately after the Attack in and around the World Trade Center.
Add to that the medical people, NYC officials, and various utilities
and other businesses who got into immediate action. All of that is
quite well documented in many and various media outside of
hobby groups.

Now THAT we CAN'T.

There have already been a half dozen recriminating "inquests" as to why
various communications failures occured with FDNY, NYPD, PAPF, EMS and othr
agencies.

Exactly who was "recriminated?" There were investigations, yes, but
"inquests" also?

Too bad you don't subscribe to any EMS/Rescue journals, Lennie...Ya might
learn something about radio other than what you spew about in here.....It's a
bitter subject within Fire/EMS circles right now.

Recrimination is the act answering an accuser by accusing them
in return. That is what you do to others in here. Who and where
were the agencies doing this "recrimination?"

New York. NYPD. The Port Authority. FDNY. NYOES.

An inquest is specifically a judicial inquiry, as before a jury. Which
agency appeared at any inquest and at what time? What was the
ruling?

THAT has been reported in "USA Today" and other nationwide media
sources.

I don't read USA Today, only the Los Angeles and New York Times,
Time magazine, Newsweek, and sometimes the Wall Street
Journal and Variety. I don't recall the "inquests" or "recriminations"
you allege. Please supply details on specifics.

Perhaps you should read some Amateur publications. Even THEY have made
reference to some of the "boards" that have been called.

And almost every plan from the Department of Defense on down to "Podunk
Hollow USA" have some provision for including (or at least considering)
implementing Amateur Radio as a recourse.

As a secondary, not a primary use.

Lennie...

Only YOU and Brain keep trying to insinuate that Amateur Radio would be
"primary" communicaitons source.

And PLEASE note MY comment where I SPECIICALLY STATED "...implementing
Amateur Radio as a recourse"...Or do I need to define "recourse" for you?

The Auxilliary Communications Service of the state of California
accepts volunteers with or without amateur license and doesn't
even consider amateur radio as a primary fall-back medium for
large-scale emergencies.

You had better reassess using that "doesn't even consider amateur radio"
comment vis-a-vis ACS.

According to one of APCO's vice presidents (who happened to be at HR04),
ACS very thoroughly utilizes Amateur Radio and Amateur Radio operators.

Since he was part-and-parcel of the organization of ACS, I'd assume he
knows...

A case in point is the "other" "9/11" Attack on the Pentagon in
DC....(Snip to....)
After crash fire control and search and rescue was coordinated by on-
site military and civilian communications, not by amateur radio.

Lennie...why do you keep trying to make a point of this?

No one here has even remotely suggested that it was otherwise.

YOU have.

No, I've not. I've not made a single reference to the activities at the
Pentagon as it pertains to the events of Spetember 11th.

You will please cite the quote that you suggests that I did?

There are no viable
reports of amateur radio being used while that most definite
emergency situation was happening. (In reference to the 4th
hijacking...SR)

"SR?" That wasn't in my post. Why are you adding things?

I "added" a clarification that you were refering to the fourth hijacking.

I stated that clearly and added my initials as evidence that it was I, not
you that put that there.

If you are so feeble as to not be able to follow that without having to
requote the ENTIRE post, then I will, but it will just eat up bandwidth.

I don't think you are THAT idiotic, but if I need to do it to help keep
you focused, I'll be glad to do it in the future.

However Amateur Radio WAS employed in the post-incident recovery at the
site.

In WHAT NTSB "recovery?" The NTSB has its own investigators
and recovery procedures, such procedures limited to hired salvage
operators and military personnel.

Describe this "post-incident recovery" and tell us what the NTSB
has documented and where we might find all that for reference.

Try the press, Lennie.

Try the Pennsylvania Office of Emergency Services.

Try the Office of the Governor of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania who
issued a letter of appreciation to ARES for thier service at the site.

The "9/11" Attack is popular to espouse because of the enormous
emotional impact to all Americans. But, it was an ATTACK done
by other humans against all of us and definitely NOT some kind of
natural event emergency or disaster. The "kamikazi" nature of
this suicide attack was NOT anticipated by anyone and all were
in surprise and all had to work through the immediate aftermath
with whatever reseources were available.

Oh...so as long as the causal effect was "intentional", then we can
discount using Amateur Radio to receover from teh post incident effects,
Lennie...?!?!

No...because the amateur radio assistance was quite small
compared to the overall task of recovery, including the assistance
of other volunteer groups who aided the city of New York.

And you base this "small" quantification upon what reference? You having
not read about it in the LA Times?

The National Transportation and Safety Board does not "train
radio amateurs" to recover crash evidence. Try not to falsify your
exaggerations by spouting lies and assorted untruths.

The "mistruth" here, Lennie H is that you alledge that I suggested that
Amateurs "recover crash evidence."

You now have yet another lie to apologize for, Lennie.

And you can, in the same effort, cite where I allegedly said that Amateurs
were involved in "crash evidence" recovery.

Quick Lennie...an excuse...quick!

Steve, K4YZ