John Smith wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


John Smith wrote:
Haynie said:

1) "It's not that Amateur Radio is dumbed down," he said. "People
like
me have failed to keep up, and if you look in your heart, you're
going
to say the same thing."

He's right on the money. But many hams are *not* like him, yes?

2) "...if you want people to come out of that examination room in
here
to be able to design circuits--you're in the wrong hobby."

Of course, that's been obvious to everybody else around here since
somebody first started selling spark rigs out of a catalog. Is it
somehow imperative that hams must be able to design current-tech
circuits or the sky will fall on the hobby? What's your point?

3) "I said, if we come down on the side of code, we're going to make
the no-code people mad, and if we come down on the side of the
no-code,
we're going to make the code people mad..."

Ah, but then he continued ". . so the best thing for us to do is be
evenhanded, and make everybody mad," Haynie said, tongue-in-cheek.
"And
I think we're doing a good job of it." "

In other words the League has ducked out of the code teat war this
time
and put in the hands of the FCC.

Do you have a problem with that?? I sure don't.

Your "selective snippages" are as a bare minimum a bit of comic
relief.


4) "...he predicted that the Commission will never reinstate higher
code
speed requirements as some have requested."

OBVIOUSLY . . wtf . . ?!

5) "The FCC is not going to go back to 13 and 20 words per minute,
and
you can take that to the bank," he predicted. "It's not going to
happen." The Commission went with the single 5 WPM requirement
because
it was "sick and tired" of dealing with medical waivers, he said.

This is astounding new info or what??

Although he has become a pretty smart "politician" and "diplomat"--it
is
obvious code is given very little if any importance. Now you can
argue
his words anyway you like--but you can't find one word of his which
places ANY importance on it... He HAS said old amateurs have lost
sense
of reality, that is right there in no. 1) ... argue that anyway you
like--into looking like a fool...

Smitty I'm about 99% in agreement with what Haynie stated, I'm not
arguing his words at all, I'm arguing YOUR words. Which are goofy,
naive attempts to twist reality around which we all see thru. You're
quite terrible at this game you're trying to play John but hang around
here awhile and watch how the real pros harpoon reality in this group
.
. maybe you'll get better at the game.

. . speaking of reality . . in the end when all the dust settles CW is
everywhere on the bands today and it's gonna still be on the bands
long
after you and I have both expired. Get comfortable with it my good man
because neither of us can do a bloody thing about it one way or
another. THAT's the real reality.

And by the way what's your callsign?

Good night.

John

w3rv

You just dismissed the fact that Haynie is seeing a real problem here,
he is beginning to tell hams to stop acting like such immature jerks and
get with the program--you take these words are turn them into him giving
you an "Atta Boy!"

I am wondering who he's allegedly talking to, then.

Those problems don't seem to be manifest here.

If you are fool enough to believe that you will have to... such denial,
avoidance and BS has stagnated us to the point where all there are, are
a bunch of guys out there too old to be of interest to QSO with--the
young guys know that and you can tell them different till the cows come
home--it will not change one thing...

Thankfully not all of us live our lives by reliving tales of
post-WW2 Japan rear area radio stations.

I am 52 and most are too old for me...

Then don't talk to them.

Funny...I've never had any of these alleged 'gastric QSO's' like
some here have alleged are the bane of HF phone.

One of the benefits of not getting on HF phone very often, I
guess! Not much challenge in "just talking".

long winded rants about
yesteryear and such is a real turn off to this guy...

Then hang out elsewhere.

I cringe when I
see the expressions on the young mens face who hear it on my demos of
radio...

Hear what?

You sit there thinking all is well--I can tell you are past anything but
an argument for maintaining status quo...

What status quo?

You really mean to tell me you feel the bands out there are "congested?"

At times they are. At others, they're not.

Tell someone without a radio--they just might believe you...
We both hear Haynies words you think he is saying, "Good Job Guys!" I
challenge that all right, I hear him saying, "Get with it old fools!!!"

Personally, I say stop top-posting. Really makes it hard to follow
your point.

And by the way, to reiterate another's question, "what's your
callsign?"

Steve, K4YZ

John Smith wrote:
You just dismissed the fact that Haynie is seeing a real
problem here,
he is beginning to tell hams to stop acting like such
immature jerks

Folks like W5JBP have been saying that for a long time.

They're right, of course.

and get with the program

Which "program", though?

--you take these words are turn them into him giving
you an "Atta Boy!"

Not me.

If you are fool enough to believe that you will have to...
such denial,
avoidance and BS has stagnated us to the point where all there are, are
a bunch of guys out there too old to be of interest to QSO with- -the
young guys know that and you can tell them different till the
cows come home--it will not change one thing...

There's a lot more than "a bunch of guys too old to be of
interest" - but you have to go where they are.

I am 52 and most are too old for me... long winded rants about
yesteryear and such is a real turn off to this guy...

I am 51, been a ham more than 37 years. In all that time, there
have always been the "old buzzards" doing what you describe.
There have also always been folks who are a lot different,
regardless of age.

I cringe when I
see the expressions on the young mens face who hear it on my
demos of radio...

And how do you do these demos? You show them voice operating,
right? 75, 20, 2 meters?

Try expanding the horizons to other modes, like PSK31, Pactor, and
(gasp) Morse Code. Different worlds, different people.

You sit there thinking all is well--I can tell you are
past anything but
an argument for maintaining status quo...
You really mean to tell me you feel the bands out there
are "congested?"

Depends what bands, modes and when.

wrote:
John Smith wrote:
Haynie said:

1) "It's not that Amateur Radio is dumbed down," he
said. "People like
me have failed to keep up, and if you look in your heart,
you're going
to say the same thing."

He's right on the money. But many hams are *not* like him, yes?

Yes.


2) "...if you want people to come out of that examination
room in here
to be able to design circuits--you're in the wrong hobby."

Heck, I went *into* the examination room able to design circuits...

Of course, that's been obvious to everybody else around here
since
somebody first started selling spark rigs out of a catalog.

Yep. "He tightened all the loose screws"

Is it
somehow imperative that hams must be able to design current-tech
circuits or the sky will fall on the hobby? What's your point?

3) "I said, if we come down on the side of code, we're going
to make
the no-code people mad, and if we come down on the side of
the no-code,
we're going to make the code people mad..."

Ah, but then he continued ". . so the best thing for us to do is be
evenhanded, and make everybody mad," Haynie said, tongue-in-
cheek. "And
I think we're doing a good job of it." "

In other words the League has ducked out of the code test war
this time and put in the hands of the FCC.

They realize a no-win situation when they see it. Also, the ARRL
BoD has a wide range of opinions on the issue, so they came up
with a compromise and went on to other issues.

Do you have a problem with that?? I sure don't.

Your "selective snippages" are as a bare minimum
a bit of comic relief.

4) "...he predicted that the Commission will never reinstate higher code speed requirements as some have requested."

OBVIOUSLY . . wtf . . ?!

He's just letting people know not to expect it. Then again,
if you don't ask you'll never get.

5) "The FCC is not going to go back to 13 and 20 words
per minute, and
you can take that to the bank," he predicted. "It's not
going to
happen." The Commission went with the single 5 WPM
requirement because
it was "sick and tired" of dealing with medical waivers,
he said.

This is astounding new info or what??

Not at all.

Frankly, I'm simply amazed that FCC didn't just dump Element
1 two years ago when the treaty changed at WRC 2003. All they
needed was a one-paragraph Memorandum Report and Order saying
that they'd dealt with the issue back in 2000, and pending further
changes, everybody who passes any of the written tests
for a US ham license gets code test credit too. Or some such verbiage,
just like they did when they waived the code sending test.

But FCC didn't do that, even after getting a pile of proposals
to do so. In a month or so it will be two years and there isn't
even an NPRM out yet. If they go the entire NPRM cycle, it
could be a year or more before the rules change - *if* they
change.

Although he has become a pretty smart "politician"
and "diplomat"--it is
obvious code is given very little if any importance.

By whom?

The code *test* may be dropped, (actually I think it's very likely) but
Morse Code itself is a very big part of amateur radio in 2005.

Now you can argue
his words anyway you like--but you can't find one word of
his which
places ANY importance on it...

On the *test*.

He HAS said old amateurs have lost sense
of reality, that is right there in no. 1) ... argue that
anyway you
like--into looking like a fool...

Smitty I'm about 99% in agreement with what Haynie stated, I'm not
arguing his words at all, I'm arguing YOUR words. Which are
goofy,
naive attempts to twist reality around which we all see thru.
You're
quite terrible at this game you're trying to play John but hang around
here awhile and watch how the real pros harpoon reality in this group .
. maybe you'll get better at the game.

Good advice!

. . speaking of reality . . in the end when all the dust
settles CW is
everywhere on the bands today and it's gonna still be on the
bands long
after you and I have both expired. Get comfortable with it my
good man
because neither of us can do a bloody thing about it one way or
another. THAT's the real reality.

Tune down the low ends of the HF bands, in the evenings when most
of the younger folks aren't tied up with work, school, kids, etc.
There's a lot more going on than the voice modes on the high ends.

And by the way what's your callsign?

Good night.

73 de Jim, N2EY

John Smith wrote:

You just dismissed the fact that Haynie is seeing a real problem here,

Bull****, he cited several completely separate problems and I already
stated that I more or less agree with him on all counts.

he is beginning to tell hams to stop acting like such immature jerks and
get with the program--you take these words are turn them into him giving
you an "Atta Boy!"

"Atta Boy" for WHAT??

If you are fool enough to believe that you will have to... such denial,
avoidance and BS has stagnated us to the point where all there are, are
a bunch of guys out there too old to be of interest to QSO with--the
young guys know that and you can tell them different till the cows come
home--it will not change one thing...

What do you suggest? That the seniors quit ham radio?

I am 52 and most are too old for me...

.. . that's obvious but not for the reasons you think it is . .

long winded rants about
yesteryear and such is a real turn off to this guy...

Too damned bad about that, they have the licenses and they're allowed
to chit chat about history if that's their interest. If you don't like
it fine, twist the big knob on the front of your radio and go somewhere
else which is what I do.

I cringe when I
see the expressions on the young mens face who hear it on my demos of
radio...

Yeah yeah, the kids I hung out with on the corner a half century ago
didn't think much of ham radio either.

You sit there thinking all is well--I can tell you are past anything but
an argument for maintaining status quo...
You really mean to tell me you feel the bands out there are "congested?"

Where the hell have I used the term "congestion" anywhere ?!

Tell someone without a radio--they just might believe you...
We both hear Haynies words you think he is saying, "Good Job Guys!" I
challenge that all right, I hear him saying, "Get with it old fools!!!"

You're simply an irrational/incoherent waste of bandwidth and time.
'Bye.

John

w3rv

My real name and call are held to protect the innocent (or guilty as you
prefer.)
I have had my station inspected a couple of times, and passed with
flying colors I might add, since my fellow amateurs frowned on me
chatting with truckers and general "undesirable types" on the Chicken
Band...
I am very familiar with hams finding out your call and attempting to use
the FCC as their private police... SOME are full of dirty tricks...

Warmest regards,
John

"K4YZ" wrote in message
oups.com...
John Smith wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


John Smith wrote:
Haynie said:

1) "It's not that Amateur Radio is dumbed down," he said. "People
like
me have failed to keep up, and if you look in your heart, you're
going
to say the same thing."

He's right on the money. But many hams are *not* like him, yes?

2) "...if you want people to come out of that examination room in
here
to be able to design circuits--you're in the wrong hobby."

Of course, that's been obvious to everybody else around here since
somebody first started selling spark rigs out of a catalog. Is it
somehow imperative that hams must be able to design current-tech
circuits or the sky will fall on the hobby? What's your point?

3) "I said, if we come down on the side of code, we're going to
make
the no-code people mad, and if we come down on the side of the
no-code,
we're going to make the code people mad..."

Ah, but then he continued ". . so the best thing for us to do is
be
evenhanded, and make everybody mad," Haynie said, tongue-in-cheek.
"And
I think we're doing a good job of it." "

In other words the League has ducked out of the code teat war this
time
and put in the hands of the FCC.

Do you have a problem with that?? I sure don't.

Your "selective snippages" are as a bare minimum a bit of comic
relief.


4) "...he predicted that the Commission will never reinstate
higher
code
speed requirements as some have requested."

OBVIOUSLY . . wtf . . ?!

5) "The FCC is not going to go back to 13 and 20 words per minute,
and
you can take that to the bank," he predicted. "It's not going to
happen." The Commission went with the single 5 WPM requirement
because
it was "sick and tired" of dealing with medical waivers, he said.

This is astounding new info or what??

Although he has become a pretty smart "politician" and
"diplomat"--it
is
obvious code is given very little if any importance. Now you can
argue
his words anyway you like--but you can't find one word of his
which
places ANY importance on it... He HAS said old amateurs have lost
sense
of reality, that is right there in no. 1) ... argue that anyway
you
like--into looking like a fool...

Smitty I'm about 99% in agreement with what Haynie stated, I'm not
arguing his words at all, I'm arguing YOUR words. Which are goofy,
naive attempts to twist reality around which we all see thru.
You're
quite terrible at this game you're trying to play John but hang
around
here awhile and watch how the real pros harpoon reality in this
group
.
. maybe you'll get better at the game.

. . speaking of reality . . in the end when all the dust settles CW
is
everywhere on the bands today and it's gonna still be on the bands
long
after you and I have both expired. Get comfortable with it my good
man
because neither of us can do a bloody thing about it one way or
another. THAT's the real reality.

And by the way what's your callsign?

Good night.

John

w3rv

You just dismissed the fact that Haynie is seeing a real problem
here,
he is beginning to tell hams to stop acting like such immature jerks
and
get with the program--you take these words are turn them into him
giving
you an "Atta Boy!"

I am wondering who he's allegedly talking to, then.

Those problems don't seem to be manifest here.

If you are fool enough to believe that you will have to... such
denial,
avoidance and BS has stagnated us to the point where all there are,
are
a bunch of guys out there too old to be of interest to QSO with--the
young guys know that and you can tell them different till the cows
come
home--it will not change one thing...

Thankfully not all of us live our lives by reliving tales of
post-WW2 Japan rear area radio stations.

I am 52 and most are too old for me...

Then don't talk to them.

Funny...I've never had any of these alleged 'gastric QSO's' like
some here have alleged are the bane of HF phone.

One of the benefits of not getting on HF phone very often, I
guess! Not much challenge in "just talking".

long winded rants about
yesteryear and such is a real turn off to this guy...

Then hang out elsewhere.

I cringe when I
see the expressions on the young mens face who hear it on my demos of
radio...

Hear what?

You sit there thinking all is well--I can tell you are past anything
but
an argument for maintaining status quo...

What status quo?

You really mean to tell me you feel the bands out there are
"congested?"

At times they are. At others, they're not.

Tell someone without a radio--they just might believe you...
We both hear Haynies words you think he is saying, "Good Job Guys!"
I
challenge that all right, I hear him saying, "Get with it old
fools!!!"

Personally, I say stop top-posting. Really makes it hard to follow
your point.

And by the way, to reiterate another's question, "what's your
callsign?"

Steve, K4YZ

wrote:
wrote:
.. . . .

In other words the League has ducked out of the code test war
this time and put in the hands of the FCC.

They realize a no-win situation when they see it. Also, the ARRL
BoD has a wide range of opinions on the issue, so they came up
with a compromise and went on to other issues.

On one hand they really didn't have any choice, enough was enough. On
another hand that's the way things work in democracies.

Frankly, I'm simply amazed that FCC didn't just dump Element
1 two years ago when the treaty changed at WRC 2003. All they
needed was a one-paragraph Memorandum Report and Order saying
that they'd dealt with the issue back in 2000, and pending further
changes, everybody who passes any of the written tests
for a US ham license gets code test credit too. Or some such verbiage,
just like they did when they waived the code sending test.

My guess is that the FCC didn't move on the code test when the ITU
dropped the requirement because they had a major restructuring in mind
back then and decided to bundle any changes in the code test into the
overall restructuring package per the Incentive Licensing
restructuring. Which is typical regulatory "behavior". Or they had
already decided to retain the code test into the future. With 98% of
the world's population still subject to code tests and given the small
number of countries which have abandoned the code tests it just might
be that the decision to retain the code test here was quietly carved in
stone 4-5 years ago. Conversly though the waivers problem is still out
there . . .

But FCC didn't do that, even after getting a pile of proposals
to do so. In a month or so it will be two years and there isn't
even an NPRM out yet. If they go the entire NPRM cycle, it
could be a year or more before the rules change - *if* they
change.

The NPRM is obviously enroute whether it shows up later this year or
sometime next year doesn't matter much and I expect it to be a real
gooder. Gonna be some nuclear explosions in this NG when it finally
does get published. Heh.

Tune down the low ends of the HF bands, in the evenings when most
of the younger folks aren't tied up with work, school, kids, etc.
There's a lot more going on than the voice modes on the high ends.

Even in the phone bands the U.S. geezer nets are usually well up the
bands to accomodate the Generals, there's very little of that sort of
operating in the Extra/Advanced segments.


73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

John Smith wrote:

Len:

A direct quote from Jim Haynie, "The ARRL president asserted that many
Amateur Extra class licensees couldn't pass today's Element 4
examination if they had to..."

I could! that's the one I passed to become an Extra!

- Mike KB3EIA -

bb wrote:


John Smith wrote:

Yes.

Well, you cannot disguise the fact that the over 60 crowd just don't
have the energy or enthusiasm as the teenage to 30 crowd--or the fact
that these younger people are actively engaged in the research,
development and production phases of electronics. Why they may
effectively hang on limiting the hobby--this cannot not go on
indefinitely...


John, there is hope. I took a look at the actuarial tables shortly
after joining this newsgripe, and it look like they are working in our
favor. We can help it work by not turning into the very type of
amateur that the tables are currently removing from hamdom.


I've chatted with a 96 y.o. Ham on PSK31 who certainly doesn't fit that
"Evil olde Hamme" description. He'd just gotten a new laptop, converting
to XP from Win2k. A fine gentleman, and not afraid of learning and doing
new things. It's not all bleak.

Let us hope he continues to beat those tables.

- Mike KB3EIA -

John Smith wrote:

Haynie said:

1) "It's not that Amateur Radio is dumbed down," he said. "People like
me have failed to keep up, and if you look in your heart, you're going
to say the same thing."

That happens to a lot of 'em. Odd, that, I think keeping up is a lot of
the fun!

2) "...if you want people to come out of that examination room in here
to be able to design circuits--you're in the wrong hobby."

I wonder if that ever was the case in the old days. Somehow I doubt it.


3) "I said, if we come down on the side of code, we're going to make
the no-code people mad, and if we come down on the side of the no-code,
we're going to make the code people mad..."

So ya should give it a good thinkin' through, and do what you thing is
right.


4) "...he predicted that the Commission will never reinstate higher code
speed requirements as some have requested."

5) "The FCC is not going to go back to 13 and 20 words per minute, and
you can take that to the bank," he predicted. "It's not going to
happen." The Commission went with the single 5 WPM requirement because
it was "sick and tired" of dealing with medical waivers, he said.

Although he has become a pretty smart "politician" and "diplomat"--it is
obvious code is given very little if any importance. Now you can argue
his words anyway you like--but you can't find one word of his which
places ANY importance on it... He HAS said old amateurs have lost sense
of reality,

Actually, that staement isn't a quote, it is filler from the writer. He
may have said some things about older hams, but it is a long way from
telling them they have lost sense of reality.



that is right there in no. 1) ... argue that anyway you
like--into looking like a fool...

Just sounded close to a quote. That's the problem. While I agree with
what Haynie has said, I think you are injecting your own opinion into
what he said.

I've been a ham for 6 years now. I came up through the new system. An
awful lot of the oddballs on the air appear to have been licensed for
quite a while, and I assume they are tested to more than 5wpm. Yeah,
someone will probably point out the old waiver system. But I doubt that
every kook and jammer got a waiver.

The new guys and gals are not any worse than the old ones.

- Mike KB3EIA -

wrote:


What do you suggest? That the seniors quit ham radio?

Smitty thinks all hams should be like him. Boy, talk about the death of
ham radio, that would do it.