K=D8HB wrote:
wrote

Papa Bush was kinda anti-code...............

Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

I am glad you enjoyed that, Hans.

Incredible stretch!
=20
The oil-tanker thing is true, btw.

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:
From: "bb" on Thurs 9 Jun 2005 15:26

K4YZ wrote:
John Smith wrote:

You just dismissed the fact that Haynie is seeing a real problem here,
he is beginning to tell hams to stop acting like such immature jerks and
get with the program--

Has he been reading old copies of Wayne Green's editorials in "73
Magazine?"

I think Jim Haynie has been peeking into THIS newsgroup of late.
He was in here once a few years ago. We corresponded briefly
via private e-mail.

I hope he didn't overdose on W0EX and K4YZ. They'd cause anyone to
swear off of ham radio forever.

you take these words are turn them into him giving
you an "Atta Boy!"

I am wondering who he's allegedly talking to, then.

Allegedly?

He's talking to you. He's talking to all of us.

Stebie is getting so that he doesn't know who to believe
anymore...therefore the "alleged" word. :-)

He would describe Benedict the Sixteenth as "allegedly"
the Pope! :-)

Paranoia does that.

Didn't you follow the link to the ARRL site?

Go back up the the top, and click on the blue thingy.

Let Stebie figure it out for himself. Good mental
therapy for the congenitally confused. :-)

He'll never get there all by himself.

Those problems don't seem to be manifest here.

Hi!

Stebie blind as well as nuts.



I think he identifies with the hero in "The Who" song, Pinball Wizard.
Despite the movie "Tommy" the song never got popular with Steve until
the other guy, Sir John, re-recorded it.

K4YZ wrote:

We've been telling you that your lies and deceit are unwelcome for
years and you don't seem to hear it.

But yours are welcomed and enjoyed by all.

John Smith wrote:
That is a real trait of the group on the bands isn't it--personal
attacks, planting doubt, suspicion, rumor, innuendo...
And then, I suppose you expect those watching such a performance to
"respect" you--you are probably quite angry when they don't--what is
next, threats?

John

Don't give anymore of them that idea.

bb:

LOL! grin

Warmest regards,
John

"bb" wrote in message
oups.com...


John Smith wrote:
That is a real trait of the group on the bands isn't it--personal
attacks, planting doubt, suspicion, rumor, innuendo...
And then, I suppose you expect those watching such a performance to
"respect" you--you are probably quite angry when they don't--what is
next, threats?

John

Don't give anymore of them that idea.

wrote:
From: Mike Coslo on May 29, 9:57 pm
wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

Many people lament that there is not enough interest
in Ham radio by young people.

Agreed - but how much would be enough?

Dunno. I personally agree somewhat with Brian K's assertion that the
absolute number of Hams could indeed drop without serious problems.

On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages.

Younger hobbyists have to be there to "take orders" from the
older ones? :-)

You'd like it if we younger folks took orders from you, but we won't.
Deal with it, Len.

There are often many reasons given for this deficiency,
and somewhat less "fixes".

One of the reasons that is given very often is that
Amateur radio is in some sort of competition with the
Internet.

Every activity is in competition with every other.

Among teen-agers? How can you possibly say that? :-)

Surely. Comparisons between the two show that Amateur radio is a tad
bit more involved than buying a computer, doing a dialup and surfing the
net. Will a person who's idea of a hobby is clicking a mouse button find
Amateur radio a tad intimidating?

Tsk, tsk. Ham speak with forked tongue on inpugning "no
intellect required." A sort of Deus Ex Mousina attitude.

Mike, you were never into computers and BBSs before the
Macintosh mouse debuted, were you? Lots and lots of ALL
ages were BBSing, having a great time without the GUI, well
before Windows, when not on-line they were doing programming,
writing games, "unprotecting" protected disks, experimenting
with the first modem advancements, etc. Budding authors were
practicing writing and established writers were generating
manuscripts with relative ease. Accounting people had
discovered the first spreadsheets and increased the efficiency
of their inventory, financial records, establishing both
schedules and prices of products they were making. ALL
BEFORE the advent of either the computer Mouse or GUI.

Actually, both the mouse and GUI came from Xerox's Palo Alto Research
Center,
about 1971. That center produced the first "personal computer" in its
modern form (a computer for each user rather than a timeshared
mainframe,
networking between users' computers, the GUI and mouse, filesharing,
etc.)
Xerox management did not realize what they had right in front of them,
and
the ideas were produced and marketed by others.

Some of us were using computers back in the punchcard and paper-tape
days.

To get an HF transceiver in their vehicles, both young and
old could buy a set of transceiver, antenna, microphone for
under $200 from Sears, K-Mart, Wall-Mart, etc. in the
morning and have it installed and working in the afternoon.

And it had a few channels, one mode and 5 watts of power at most.

Of course that was "CB" and therefore "lowly" and, to some,
"criminal." :-) [all before the GUI and mouse]

The way many cb radios were used was in clear violation of the
Communications
Act and FCC regulations.

I have to admit that putting up one's ham station DOES
take some smarts.

Yes, it does.


One copies an antenna design out of the
ARRL Antenna Handbook, getting somewhat close to the
dimensions.

Why "somewhat close"?


One can copy a whole transceiver design out
of the ARRL Handbook, then rescue themselves by scrapping
the unworking project with a ready-built transceiver bought
at HRO (reviews of performance presented by the "ARRL Lab"
and published in QST).

Just because your projects don't work doesn't mean others will fail.

They can even buy coax cable
assemblies when they are unable to put on PL-259s right,
even buy whole antenna kits. I'd say that was "plug and
play" on the same order as PCs, but before Microsith
came out with that marketing/sales phrase. :-)

How many amateur radio HF receivers, transmitters or transceivers have
*you* built, Len?


A computer has many uses, from being a glorified typewriter to a
serious research/calculation device to gaming to producing all sorts of
multimedia stuff.

Don't forget surfing porn. A great way to build character! 8^)

Tsk, Mike. You never saw "dirty pictures" elsewhere (not over a
computer) when you were "building (your own) character?" :-)

Most decent white-collar jobs today require computer skills. Many
blue-collar jobs also require them.

True enough. There aren't a lot of businesses or
corporations that need "ham radio skills" (even discounting
morse code). Back before the GUI and computer mousies,
push-to-talk two-way radios were common in business large
and small, with public safety organizations, in the military,
and in government. All easy to use...and NOT on amateur
bands nor needing morse code skills.


Not missing a point. To me, computers are like underwear - pretty much
gotta have it.

I've not seen any "HANES" computer bramds in stores...


Some people live in places where putting up an antenna - *any* antenna
- is banned by CC&Rs. A family isn't likely to move so that Junior can
put up a G5RV.

Unless either of you have some NEW info courtesy of the U.S. Census
Bureau, you will find the MOST residences in the USA do NOT have
such restrictions.

How many?

What sort of antennas do *you* have, Len?

Heh! i had a thought -maybe we could get some of the rebellious types
to go stealth! 8^)

You haven't heard of MOBILE or even HAND-HELD transceivers?!?


Actually, I think you missed my point! My point is that if a person is
making a choice of hobbies to get into, the concept of choosing between
Amateur radio and using a cell phone just isn't in the mix. I see trendy
teens with cell phones glued to their heads every day. I can only assume
that they spend hours each day on them. I can guarantee that that kid
has never considered amateur radio as a hobby.

How do you present this "guarantee?" In writing? From "long
experience" in observation? [remember there are a few of us
who've been around longer and seen MORE teeners - even been one
once - have MANY DIFFERENT observations of others over the past
half century]

How many children have you parented, Len?

I doubt they consider
their cells as a hobby either. So it is pretty hard to think of that as
competition.

Competition for teeners' TIME. They have the same 24 hours a
day as adults and infants, the same need to sleep, eat, and do
other things (such as attend school).

How many TV shows and movies ever depict engineering or
technical folks at all, compared to other fields like health
care or law enforcement?

TV shows and Movies are for ENTERTAINMENT of enough
customers that will pay the Producers of same...and artists.
Entertainment shows go for the Emotions of the audience.

One show made a start toward a good positive presentation of engineers
and techies. It was Star Trek. The original series had a very kind
treatment of Scottie, the engineer.

...who ran the works of a SPACESHIP (circa 1967) as
thunk up by MOVIE people, the Producers, the Writers,
the scenery and prop designers. NOT "techie" insofar as
our then-present society was. EMOTION stuff, NOT
education.

I graduated high school in 1972 - the golden age of space
and technology, right?

Well, pretty close to the end of it....

NOT EVEN CLOSE. Having been IN the "space business" since
1964 and working for the manufacturer of the Space Shuttle
Main Engine (as well as the Apollo first-stage engine), you
both missed the Space Shuttle program and well over a
hundred STS missions.

I didn't miss any of them, Len.

You've MISSED the unmanned vehicle
missions and negated the tremendous data gathered by the
Mars rovers and the trips to the outer edges of our solar
system.

Nope. Didn't miss them at all. I remember all the way back to
the Mercury flights with chimps ("A monkey's gonna make the first
flight!")
Shepard, Grissom, Glenn, the Gemini program, the tragedy of the Apollo
1
fire, the Mariner, Viking, Pioneer and Voyager programs, etc.

Now Cassini sends incredible pictures and data from Saturn. No sirens
found on Titan, though.

You two have completely ignored when the "personal
computer" made its debuts beginning in the mid-1970s, and
suddenly skyrocketing after 1980.

Not at all, Len. I was right there.

You've missed the first
computer networking of BBSs that began in the late 1970s
or have recognized the Internet phenomenon happening after
it went public in 1991. Perhaps you've both become too
blase' about computers and the Internet?

This NG is about amateur radio, Len. Something you are not a part of.

My basic thesis is that we as a society are moving toward the
celebration of the ordinary, the mundane. We have lost our edge. And
that can only last for so long.

Tsk, your own middle-age angst is mumbling. :-)

I've heard the SAME sort of complaint by others about their
generations' folly for about six decades. :-)

So you're old, Len. Big deal. You grunt and grumble, rant and rave more
than anyone here.

If we can celebrate those who *DO* things instead of simply consume
things, we might reverse that trend.

That has been going on in nearly all technological endeavors
for as long as I can remember. The DO-ers are celebrated.

Yep - like the hams who pioneered HF radio in 1923...

A survey of the IEEE Milestone history program in electronics
demonstrates that, a program that is shared with other
technological associations. The birth of the first "hard
drive" has been Milestoned recently...IBM's RAMAC and the
Model 350 disk storage system (1956) out of a small IBM
lab in Silicon Valley.

But, to be celebrated, you MUST do something that others
consider more remarkable than average. Your own personal
accomplishment is NOT enough. One isn't a DO-er just by
making something and showing it on the Internet to a wide
ranging viewing audience, then proclaiming its "greatness."
Neither is one a DO-er by explaining what they "will" do
and expecting plaudits BEFORE they've ever done anything.

You mean like the person who posts their military and work experience
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
again, in a failed attempt to win the
praise and admiration of others, even though it has nothing to do with
amateur radio?

Or the person who says "I'm going for Extra right out of the box", but
as of
5 years, 5 months and 27 days hasn't done so?

Or the person who talks endlessly about their supposed technical
knowledge
prowess but cannot show a single home-made amateur-radio-related
project or practical article?

"Younger?" "YOUNGER?"

.... are you 18?

John

wrote in message
ups.com...
wrote:
From: Mike Coslo on May 29, 9:57 pm
wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

Many people lament that there is not enough interest
in Ham radio by young people.

Agreed - but how much would be enough?

Dunno. I personally agree somewhat with Brian K's assertion
that the
absolute number of Hams could indeed drop without serious problems.

On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix
of ages.

Younger hobbyists have to be there to "take orders" from the
older ones? :-)

You'd like it if we younger folks took orders from you, but we won't.
Deal with it, Len.

There are often many reasons given for this deficiency,
and somewhat less "fixes".

One of the reasons that is given very often is that
Amateur radio is in some sort of competition with the
Internet.

Every activity is in competition with every other.

Among teen-agers? How can you possibly say that? :-)

Surely. Comparisons between the two show that Amateur radio
is a tad
bit more involved than buying a computer, doing a dialup and surfing
the
net. Will a person who's idea of a hobby is clicking a mouse button
find
Amateur radio a tad intimidating?

Tsk, tsk. Ham speak with forked tongue on inpugning "no
intellect required." A sort of Deus Ex Mousina attitude.

Mike, you were never into computers and BBSs before the
Macintosh mouse debuted, were you? Lots and lots of ALL
ages were BBSing, having a great time without the GUI, well
before Windows, when not on-line they were doing programming,
writing games, "unprotecting" protected disks, experimenting
with the first modem advancements, etc. Budding authors were
practicing writing and established writers were generating
manuscripts with relative ease. Accounting people had
discovered the first spreadsheets and increased the efficiency
of their inventory, financial records, establishing both
schedules and prices of products they were making. ALL
BEFORE the advent of either the computer Mouse or GUI.

Actually, both the mouse and GUI came from Xerox's Palo Alto Research
Center,
about 1971. That center produced the first "personal computer" in its
modern form (a computer for each user rather than a timeshared
mainframe,
networking between users' computers, the GUI and mouse, filesharing,
etc.)
Xerox management did not realize what they had right in front of them,
and
the ideas were produced and marketed by others.

Some of us were using computers back in the punchcard and paper-tape
days.

To get an HF transceiver in their vehicles, both young and
old could buy a set of transceiver, antenna, microphone for
under $200 from Sears, K-Mart, Wall-Mart, etc. in the
morning and have it installed and working in the afternoon.

And it had a few channels, one mode and 5 watts of power at most.

Of course that was "CB" and therefore "lowly" and, to some,
"criminal." :-) [all before the GUI and mouse]

The way many cb radios were used was in clear violation of the
Communications
Act and FCC regulations.

I have to admit that putting up one's ham station DOES
take some smarts.

Yes, it does.


One copies an antenna design out of the
ARRL Antenna Handbook, getting somewhat close to the
dimensions.

Why "somewhat close"?


One can copy a whole transceiver design out
of the ARRL Handbook, then rescue themselves by scrapping
the unworking project with a ready-built transceiver bought
at HRO (reviews of performance presented by the "ARRL Lab"
and published in QST).

Just because your projects don't work doesn't mean others will fail.

They can even buy coax cable
assemblies when they are unable to put on PL-259s right,
even buy whole antenna kits. I'd say that was "plug and
play" on the same order as PCs, but before Microsith
came out with that marketing/sales phrase. :-)

How many amateur radio HF receivers, transmitters or transceivers have
*you* built, Len?


A computer has many uses, from being a glorified typewriter to a
serious research/calculation device to gaming to producing all
sorts of
multimedia stuff.

Don't forget surfing porn. A great way to build character!
8^)

Tsk, Mike. You never saw "dirty pictures" elsewhere (not over a
computer) when you were "building (your own) character?" :-)

Most decent white-collar jobs today require computer skills. Many
blue-collar jobs also require them.

True enough. There aren't a lot of businesses or
corporations that need "ham radio skills" (even discounting
morse code). Back before the GUI and computer mousies,
push-to-talk two-way radios were common in business large
and small, with public safety organizations, in the military,
and in government. All easy to use...and NOT on amateur
bands nor needing morse code skills.


Not missing a point. To me, computers are like underwear -
pretty much
gotta have it.

I've not seen any "HANES" computer bramds in stores...


Some people live in places where putting up an antenna - *any*
antenna
- is banned by CC&Rs. A family isn't likely to move so that Junior
can
put up a G5RV.

Unless either of you have some NEW info courtesy of the U.S.
Census
Bureau, you will find the MOST residences in the USA do NOT have
such restrictions.

How many?

What sort of antennas do *you* have, Len?

Heh! i had a thought -maybe we could get some of the
rebellious types
to go stealth! 8^)

You haven't heard of MOBILE or even HAND-HELD transceivers?!?


Actually, I think you missed my point! My point is that if a
person is
making a choice of hobbies to get into, the concept of choosing
between
Amateur radio and using a cell phone just isn't in the mix. I see
trendy
teens with cell phones glued to their heads every day. I can only
assume
that they spend hours each day on them. I can guarantee that that
kid
has never considered amateur radio as a hobby.

How do you present this "guarantee?" In writing? From "long
experience" in observation? [remember there are a few of us
who've been around longer and seen MORE teeners - even been one
once - have MANY DIFFERENT observations of others over the past
half century]

How many children have you parented, Len?

I doubt they consider
their cells as a hobby either. So it is pretty hard to think of that
as
competition.

Competition for teeners' TIME. They have the same 24 hours a
day as adults and infants, the same need to sleep, eat, and do
other things (such as attend school).

How many TV shows and movies ever depict engineering or
technical folks at all, compared to other fields like health
care or law enforcement?

TV shows and Movies are for ENTERTAINMENT of enough
customers that will pay the Producers of same...and artists.
Entertainment shows go for the Emotions of the audience.

One show made a start toward a good positive presentation of
engineers
and techies. It was Star Trek. The original series had a very kind
treatment of Scottie, the engineer.

...who ran the works of a SPACESHIP (circa 1967) as
thunk up by MOVIE people, the Producers, the Writers,
the scenery and prop designers. NOT "techie" insofar as
our then-present society was. EMOTION stuff, NOT
education.

I graduated high school in 1972 - the golden age of space
and technology, right?

Well, pretty close to the end of it....

NOT EVEN CLOSE. Having been IN the "space business" since
1964 and working for the manufacturer of the Space Shuttle
Main Engine (as well as the Apollo first-stage engine), you
both missed the Space Shuttle program and well over a
hundred STS missions.

I didn't miss any of them, Len.

You've MISSED the unmanned vehicle
missions and negated the tremendous data gathered by the
Mars rovers and the trips to the outer edges of our solar
system.

Nope. Didn't miss them at all. I remember all the way back to
the Mercury flights with chimps ("A monkey's gonna make the first
flight!")
Shepard, Grissom, Glenn, the Gemini program, the tragedy of the Apollo
1
fire, the Mariner, Viking, Pioneer and Voyager programs, etc.

Now Cassini sends incredible pictures and data from Saturn. No sirens
found on Titan, though.

You two have completely ignored when the "personal
computer" made its debuts beginning in the mid-1970s, and
suddenly skyrocketing after 1980.

Not at all, Len. I was right there.

You've missed the first
computer networking of BBSs that began in the late 1970s
or have recognized the Internet phenomenon happening after
it went public in 1991. Perhaps you've both become too
blase' about computers and the Internet?

This NG is about amateur radio, Len. Something you are not a part of.

My basic thesis is that we as a society are moving toward the
celebration of the ordinary, the mundane. We have lost our edge. And
that can only last for so long.

Tsk, your own middle-age angst is mumbling. :-)

I've heard the SAME sort of complaint by others about their
generations' folly for about six decades. :-)

So you're old, Len. Big deal. You grunt and grumble, rant and rave
more
than anyone here.

If we can celebrate those who *DO* things instead of simply
consume
things, we might reverse that trend.

That has been going on in nearly all technological endeavors
for as long as I can remember. The DO-ers are celebrated.

Yep - like the hams who pioneered HF radio in 1923...

A survey of the IEEE Milestone history program in electronics
demonstrates that, a program that is shared with other
technological associations. The birth of the first "hard
drive" has been Milestoned recently...IBM's RAMAC and the
Model 350 disk storage system (1956) out of a small IBM
lab in Silicon Valley.

But, to be celebrated, you MUST do something that others
consider more remarkable than average. Your own personal
accomplishment is NOT enough. One isn't a DO-er just by
making something and showing it on the Internet to a wide
ranging viewing audience, then proclaiming its "greatness."
Neither is one a DO-er by explaining what they "will" do
and expecting plaudits BEFORE they've ever done anything.

You mean like the person who posts their military and work experience
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
again, in a failed attempt to win the
praise and admiration of others, even though it has nothing to do with
amateur radio?

Or the person who says "I'm going for Extra right out of the box", but
as of
5 years, 5 months and 27 days hasn't done so?

Or the person who talks endlessly about their supposed technical
knowledge
prowess but cannot show a single home-made amateur-radio-related
project or practical article?

wrote:
wrote:

From: Mike Coslo on May 29, 9:57 pm

wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

Many people lament that there is not enough interest
in Ham radio by young people.

Agreed - but how much would be enough?

Dunno. I personally agree somewhat with Brian K's assertion that the
absolute number of Hams could indeed drop without serious problems.

On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages.

Younger hobbyists have to be there to "take orders" from the
older ones? :-)


You'd like it if we younger folks took orders from you, but we won't.
Deal with it, Len.

There are often many reasons given for this deficiency,
and somewhat less "fixes".

One of the reasons that is given very often is that
Amateur radio is in some sort of competition with the
Internet.

Every activity is in competition with every other.

Among teen-agers? How can you possibly say that? :-)


Surely. Comparisons between the two show that Amateur radio is a tad
bit more involved than buying a computer, doing a dialup and surfing the
net. Will a person who's idea of a hobby is clicking a mouse button find
Amateur radio a tad intimidating?

Tsk, tsk. Ham speak with forked tongue on inpugning "no
intellect required." A sort of Deus Ex Mousina attitude.

Mike, you were never into computers and BBSs before the
Macintosh mouse debuted, were you? Lots and lots of ALL
ages were BBSing, having a great time without the GUI, well
before Windows, when not on-line they were doing programming,
writing games, "unprotecting" protected disks, experimenting
with the first modem advancements, etc. Budding authors were
practicing writing and established writers were generating
manuscripts with relative ease. Accounting people had
discovered the first spreadsheets and increased the efficiency
of their inventory, financial records, establishing both
schedules and prices of products they were making. ALL
BEFORE the advent of either the computer Mouse or GUI.


Actually, both the mouse and GUI came from Xerox's Palo Alto Research
Center,
about 1971. That center produced the first "personal computer" in its
modern form (a computer for each user rather than a timeshared
mainframe,
networking between users' computers, the GUI and mouse, filesharing,
etc.)
Xerox management did not realize what they had right in front of them,
and
the ideas were produced and marketed by others.

Some of us were using computers back in the punchcard and paper-tape
days.

Yeah, like me! Ancient IBM mainframes that took up an entire room in
the late '70s. First personal size computer was the venerable Trash-80
with a tape drive around 1981. First computer hooked to a modem was a
C-64 a few years later. Got a number of the Commodore Amigas. Had a
A500, an A2000,A3000, and an A4000. Got the Macs starting with a II-CX,
then to a 7100, 7500, G3, G4, and now a G5. PC's from the 286, 386 PS2,
Several laptops, and some HP Pavilions at home.

I've been around computers a while, despite diatribes to the contrary .

To get an HF transceiver in their vehicles, both young and
old could buy a set of transceiver, antenna, microphone for
under $200 from Sears, K-Mart, Wall-Mart, etc. in the
morning and have it installed and working in the afternoon.


And it had a few channels, one mode and 5 watts of power at most.


Of course that was "CB" and therefore "lowly" and, to some,
"criminal." :-) [all before the GUI and mouse]


The way many cb radios were used was in clear violation of the
Communications
Act and FCC regulations.


I have to admit that putting up one's ham station DOES
take some smarts.


Yes, it does.



One copies an antenna design out of the
ARRL Antenna Handbook, getting somewhat close to the
dimensions.


Why "somewhat close"?


My experience has been that it must be a small "somewhat" indeed!

Is there some rule that "real electronikers" can't use reference material?

Real technicians don't look up pinouts either! ;^)




One can copy a whole transceiver design out
of the ARRL Handbook, then rescue themselves by scrapping
the unworking project with a ready-built transceiver bought
at HRO (reviews of performance presented by the "ARRL Lab"
and published in QST).


Just because your projects don't work doesn't mean others will fail.


They can even buy coax cable
assemblies when they are unable to put on PL-259s right,
even buy whole antenna kits. I'd say that was "plug and
play" on the same order as PCs, but before Microsith
came out with that marketing/sales phrase. :-)


How many amateur radio HF receivers, transmitters or transceivers have
*you* built, Len?


A computer has many uses, from being a glorified typewriter to a
serious research/calculation device to gaming to producing all sorts of
multimedia stuff.

Don't forget surfing porn. A great way to build character! 8^)

Tsk, Mike. You never saw "dirty pictures" elsewhere (not over a
computer) when you were "building (your own) character?" :-)


Most decent white-collar jobs today require computer skills. Many
blue-collar jobs also require them.

True enough. There aren't a lot of businesses or
corporations that need "ham radio skills" (even discounting
morse code). Back before the GUI and computer mousies,
push-to-talk two-way radios were common in business large
and small, with public safety organizations, in the military,
and in government. All easy to use...and NOT on amateur
bands nor needing morse code skills.



Not missing a point. To me, computers are like underwear - pretty much
gotta have it.

I've not seen any "HANES" computer bramds in stores...



Some people live in places where putting up an antenna - *any* antenna
- is banned by CC&Rs. A family isn't likely to move so that Junior can
put up a G5RV.

Unless either of you have some NEW info courtesy of the U.S. Census
Bureau, you will find the MOST residences in the USA do NOT have
such restrictions.


How many?

What sort of antennas do *you* have, Len?


Heh! i had a thought -maybe we could get some of the rebellious types
to go stealth! 8^)

You haven't heard of MOBILE or even HAND-HELD transceivers?!?



Actually, I think you missed my point! My point is that if a person is
making a choice of hobbies to get into, the concept of choosing between
Amateur radio and using a cell phone just isn't in the mix. I see trendy
teens with cell phones glued to their heads every day. I can only assume
that they spend hours each day on them. I can guarantee that that kid
has never considered amateur radio as a hobby.

How do you present this "guarantee?" In writing? From "long
experience" in observation? [remember there are a few of us
who've been around longer and seen MORE teeners - even been one
once - have MANY DIFFERENT observations of others over the past
half century]


How many children have you parented, Len?


I doubt they consider
their cells as a hobby either. So it is pretty hard to think of that as
competition.

Competition for teeners' TIME. They have the same 24 hours a
day as adults and infants, the same need to sleep, eat, and do
other things (such as attend school).


How many TV shows and movies ever depict engineering or
technical folks at all, compared to other fields like health
care or law enforcement?

TV shows and Movies are for ENTERTAINMENT of enough
customers that will pay the Producers of same...and artists.
Entertainment shows go for the Emotions of the audience.


One show made a start toward a good positive presentation of engineers
and techies. It was Star Trek. The original series had a very kind
treatment of Scottie, the engineer.

...who ran the works of a SPACESHIP (circa 1967) as
thunk up by MOVIE people, the Producers, the Writers,
the scenery and prop designers. NOT "techie" insofar as
our then-present society was. EMOTION stuff, NOT
education.


I graduated high school in 1972 - the golden age of space
and technology, right?

Well, pretty close to the end of it....

NOT EVEN CLOSE. Having been IN the "space business" since
1964 and working for the manufacturer of the Space Shuttle
Main Engine (as well as the Apollo first-stage engine), you
both missed the Space Shuttle program and well over a
hundred STS missions.


I didn't miss any of them, Len.


You've MISSED the unmanned vehicle
missions and negated the tremendous data gathered by the
Mars rovers and the trips to the outer edges of our solar
system.


Nope. Didn't miss them at all. I remember all the way back to
the Mercury flights with chimps ("A monkey's gonna make the first
flight!")
Shepard, Grissom, Glenn, the Gemini program, the tragedy of the Apollo
1
fire, the Mariner, Viking, Pioneer and Voyager programs, etc.

Now Cassini sends incredible pictures and data from Saturn. No sirens
found on Titan, though.


You two have completely ignored when the "personal
computer" made its debuts beginning in the mid-1970s, and
suddenly skyrocketing after 1980.


Not at all, Len. I was right there.


You've missed the first
computer networking of BBSs that began in the late 1970s
or have recognized the Internet phenomenon happening after
it went public in 1991. Perhaps you've both become too
blase' about computers and the Internet?


This NG is about amateur radio, Len. Something you are not a part of.

My basic thesis is that we as a society are moving toward the
celebration of the ordinary, the mundane. We have lost our edge. And
that can only last for so long.

Tsk, your own middle-age angst is mumbling. :-)

I've heard the SAME sort of complaint by others about their
generations' folly for about six decades. :-)


So you're old, Len. Big deal. You grunt and grumble, rant and rave more
than anyone here.


If we can celebrate those who *DO* things instead of simply consume
things, we might reverse that trend.

That has been going on in nearly all technological endeavors
for as long as I can remember. The DO-ers are celebrated.


Yep - like the hams who pioneered HF radio in 1923...


A survey of the IEEE Milestone history program in electronics
demonstrates that, a program that is shared with other
technological associations. The birth of the first "hard
drive" has been Milestoned recently...IBM's RAMAC and the
Model 350 disk storage system (1956) out of a small IBM
lab in Silicon Valley.

But, to be celebrated, you MUST do something that others
consider more remarkable than average. Your own personal
accomplishment is NOT enough. One isn't a DO-er just by
making something and showing it on the Internet to a wide
ranging viewing audience, then proclaiming its "greatness."
Neither is one a DO-er by explaining what they "will" do
and expecting plaudits BEFORE they've ever done anything.


You mean like the person who posts their military and work experience
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
again,

oops, you missed one, Jim!

in a failed attempt to win the
praise and admiration of others, even though it has nothing to do with
amateur radio?

Or the person who says "I'm going for Extra right out of the box", but
as of
5 years, 5 months and 27 days hasn't done so?

Or the person who talks endlessly about their supposed technical
knowledge
prowess but cannot show a single home-made amateur-radio-related
project or practical article?


- Mike KB3EIA -

From: Michael Coslo on Thurs 16 Jun 2005 12:52


wrote:
wrote:

From: Mike Coslo on May 29, 9:57 pm

wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

Many people lament that there is not enough interest
in Ham radio by young people.

Agreed - but how much would be enough?

Dunno. I personally agree somewhat with Brian K's assertion that the
absolute number of Hams could indeed drop without serious problems.

On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages.

Younger hobbyists have to be there to "take orders" from the
older ones? :-)

You'd like it if we younger folks took orders from you, but we won't.
Deal with it, Len.

Tsk. Jimmie sounds all upset. Nobody is telling him any "orders."

Not to worry. Those who've never served in the military won't
get bothered about taking orders.

However, "radio manufacturers" very much need to take orders. As
many as they can handle! :-)

Jimmie said he was a "radio manufacturer." Better give him an
order right now, keep him solvent. [or was that "soylent...?"]


Some of us were using computers back in the punchcard and paper-tape
days.

Yeah, like me! Ancient IBM mainframes that took up an entire room in
the late '70s. First personal size computer was the venerable Trash-80
with a tape drive around 1981. First computer hooked to a modem was a
C-64 a few years later. Got a number of the Commodore Amigas. Had a
A500, an A2000,A3000, and an A4000. Got the Macs starting with a II-CX,
then to a 7100, 7500, G3, G4, and now a G5. PC's from the 286, 386 PS2,
Several laptops, and some HP Pavilions at home.

Woweee! Keep that consumer market afloat with buy, buy, buy...

Ever BUILD your own PC, Michael? Like etch the PC, drill them
holes, solder them pins, PROGRAM the monitor ROM? No? Tsk.

Remember: You can't say "first personal" in here. That sort of
talk is CB trash and CBers are supposed to be the evil scourges
of radio, satan's henchmen on earth...

I've been around computers a while, despite diatribes to the contrary .

Tsk, tsk. When I was young we carved our own ICs out of wood....

:-)

To get an HF transceiver in their vehicles, both young and
old could buy a set of transceiver, antenna, microphone for
under $200 from Sears, K-Mart, Wall-Mart, etc. in the
morning and have it installed and working in the afternoon.

And it had a few channels, one mode and 5 watts of power at most.

23 or 40 channels is "few?" In an urban area of 10 million+,
yes, too few. :-)

But, "5 watts of power" can WORK THE WORLD!!! :-)

Only 5 Watts of RF output? Nay, see the General Radiotelephone
CB manufactured by the thousands here in beautiful uptown
Burbank. 35 Watts out with the "modification" clearly spelled
out in the instruction manual! :-)


The way many cb radios were used was in clear violation of the
Communications Act and FCC regulations.

Riiiiight you are Mr. Noblestoneofall...all CBers are dastard
souless lawbreakers and should all be taken out and shot.

All the righteous, noble, "federally authorized" hams deserve
a lifetime of respect and admiration for being scrupulously
honest with everything!


My experience has been that it must be a small "somewhat" indeed!

Is there some rule that "real electronikers" can't use reference material?

With ham radio among the mighty macho morsemen, ALL you need is
morsemanship. That's enough.

"Morse gets through when everything else will..." B. Burke, 2004


Real technicians don't look up pinouts either! ;^)

Oh? You "KNOW" every single tube, transistor, IC pinout by heart?

If you do, you're ten kinds of dum**** braggart, Michael.



What sort of antennas do *you* have, Len?

Two. But the number of covenants against them are only one and
that one was issued by the FAA. :-)



How many children have you parented, Len?

Ah! The Master Pediatrician accuses! :-)

Last time I looked, NO ONE in ANY discipline of electronics was
required to be a parent in order to work in that field! :-)

Would you accept an MD's signed test paper on sperm count? :-)

HOW MANY CHILDREN AS JIMMIE MICCOLIS "PARENTED?"

So far, we've not heard any answer in public...and are not likely
to. Jimmie wishes to be dominatrix here?



This NG is about amateur radio, Len. Something you are not a part of.

This newsgroup is about AMATEUR RADIO POLICY, Jimmie, NOT pediatrics
or How To Raise Kids. So far, we have to assume YOU ARE NOT A
PART OF THAT.


So you're old, Len. Big deal. You grunt and grumble, rant and rave more
than anyone here.

No, I don't. :-)



If we can celebrate those who *DO* things instead of simply consume
things, we might reverse that trend.

That has been going on in nearly all technological endeavors
for as long as I can remember. The DO-ers are celebrated.

Yep - like the hams who pioneered HF radio in 1923...

Woweee! Like they got TOSSED OUT of MF and had to go where
wavelengths were shorter than 200 meters...by ACT OF LAW!!!!

Some "pioneering!!!" The first of the "homeless" in radio and
now you say they were "pioneers?!?" Geez, talk about
rationalizations!!!


You mean like the person who posts their military and work experience
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
again,

oops, you missed one, Jim!

Awwwwwwww! You poor guys, never worked the Big Leagues of radio?

Well, somebody in here used to say (in a bad paraphrase), "It ain't
braggin' if ya done it!"

I did it. I ain't braggin. :-)

in a failed attempt to win the
praise and admiration of others, even though it has nothing to do with
amateur radio?

Tsk, tsk. That's a perfect description of Jimmie Miccolis!!! :-)


Or the person who says "I'm going for Extra right out of the box", but as of
5 years, 5 months and 27 days hasn't done so?

Tsk, tsk. No Holy Vows were taken in the writing of that. :-)

I can't be "ex-communicated." I'm still communicating... :-)


Or the person who talks endlessly about their supposed technical knowledge
prowess but cannot show a single home-made amateur-radio-related project
or practical article?

Woweeee!!! "Radio manufacturer" Jimmie shows ONE picture of a tube
rig "designed" and built in the 1990s? :-)

Fabulous...that's even better than the 30-year-old crib from
Superior
Electric on autotransformers "published" in the Electric Radio
webzine!

Wheeee...lots of real swell PRACTICAL things to do...nothing at all
like that damn useless "theory" that mighty macho morsemen hate so
much.

"Extra! Extra! Read all about it! Hams pioneer radio in 1923!"

Run right out and buy a copy for a dime from the newsboy! :-)

"Extra! Extra! Read all about it! Hams pioneer radio in 1923!"

Run right out and buy a copy for a dime from the newsboy! :-)


/

Septuagenarian Lennie, like his Relys, runneth over yet again.