.... no, I think Haynie has it right, read the whole article... code is
no longer of any importance and the ancient amateurs could not even pass
the test given today--READ THE ARTICLE!

John
"Dave Heil" wrote in message
k.net...
John Smith wrote:
Len:

A direct quote from Jim Haynie, "The ARRL president asserted that
many Amateur Extra class licensees couldn't pass today's Element 4
examination if they had to..."
Complete article at:
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/05/22/1/?nc=1

Haynie's mistake is in assuming that because he might have trouble
passing it, many others would also have difficulty.

Dave K8MN

John Smith wrote:
... no, I think Haynie has it right, read the whole article... code is
no longer of any importance

Bull, that's NOT what he said.

and the ancient amateurs could not even pass
the test given today--

So? What's the big deal? If I had to be retested I'd simply memorize
the question pools like everybody else does these days. The EE-types
wouldn't even do that, they's just sit down and pass it. Like Haynie
said "passing a ham exam does not make you an engineer." Which is to
say that passing the writtens isn't much more than a traditional rite
of passage. Always have been for that matter.

READ THE ARTICLE!

I read the article. Now you tune around the bottom ends of the bands
for a reality check.

w3rv

Haynie said:

1) "It's not that Amateur Radio is dumbed down," he said. "People like
me have failed to keep up, and if you look in your heart, you're going
to say the same thing."

2) "...if you want people to come out of that examination room in here
to be able to design circuits--you're in the wrong hobby."

3) "I said, if we come down on the side of code, we're going to make
the no-code people mad, and if we come down on the side of the no-code,
we're going to make the code people mad..."

4) "...he predicted that the Commission will never reinstate higher code
speed requirements as some have requested."

5) "The FCC is not going to go back to 13 and 20 words per minute, and
you can take that to the bank," he predicted. "It's not going to
happen." The Commission went with the single 5 WPM requirement because
it was "sick and tired" of dealing with medical waivers, he said.

Although he has become a pretty smart "politician" and "diplomat"--it is
obvious code is given very little if any importance. Now you can argue
his words anyway you like--but you can't find one word of his which
places ANY importance on it... He HAS said old amateurs have lost sense
of reality, that is right there in no. 1) ... argue that anyway you
like--into looking like a fool...

John
wrote in message
oups.com...
John Smith wrote:
... no, I think Haynie has it right, read the whole article... code
is
no longer of any importance

Bull, that's NOT what he said.

and the ancient amateurs could not even pass
the test given today--

So? What's the big deal? If I had to be retested I'd simply memorize
the question pools like everybody else does these days. The EE-types
wouldn't even do that, they's just sit down and pass it. Like Haynie
said "passing a ham exam does not make you an engineer." Which is to
say that passing the writtens isn't much more than a traditional rite
of passage. Always have been for that matter.

READ THE ARTICLE!

I read the article. Now you tune around the bottom ends of the bands
for a reality check.

w3rv

John Smith wrote:
Haynie said:

1) "It's not that Amateur Radio is dumbed down," he said. "People like
me have failed to keep up, and if you look in your heart, you're going
to say the same thing."

He's right on the money. But many hams are *not* like him, yes?

2) "...if you want people to come out of that examination room in here
to be able to design circuits--you're in the wrong hobby."

Of course, that's been obvious to everybody else around here since
somebody first started selling spark rigs out of a catalog. Is it
somehow imperative that hams must be able to design current-tech
circuits or the sky will fall on the hobby? What's your point?

3) "I said, if we come down on the side of code, we're going to make
the no-code people mad, and if we come down on the side of the no-code,
we're going to make the code people mad..."

Ah, but then he continued ". . so the best thing for us to do is be
evenhanded, and make everybody mad," Haynie said, tongue-in-cheek. "And
I think we're doing a good job of it." "

In other words the League has ducked out of the code teat war this time
and put in the hands of the FCC.

Do you have a problem with that?? I sure don't.

Your "selective snippages" are as a bare minimum a bit of comic relief.


4) "...he predicted that the Commission will never reinstate higher code
speed requirements as some have requested."

OBVIOUSLY . . wtf . . ?!

5) "The FCC is not going to go back to 13 and 20 words per minute, and
you can take that to the bank," he predicted. "It's not going to
happen." The Commission went with the single 5 WPM requirement because
it was "sick and tired" of dealing with medical waivers, he said.

This is astounding new info or what??

Although he has become a pretty smart "politician" and "diplomat"--it is
obvious code is given very little if any importance. Now you can argue
his words anyway you like--but you can't find one word of his which
places ANY importance on it... He HAS said old amateurs have lost sense
of reality, that is right there in no. 1) ... argue that anyway you
like--into looking like a fool...

Smitty I'm about 99% in agreement with what Haynie stated, I'm not
arguing his words at all, I'm arguing YOUR words. Which are goofy,
naive attempts to twist reality around which we all see thru. You're
quite terrible at this game you're trying to play John but hang around
here awhile and watch how the real pros harpoon reality in this group .
.. maybe you'll get better at the game.

.. . speaking of reality . . in the end when all the dust settles CW is
everywhere on the bands today and it's gonna still be on the bands long
after you and I have both expired. Get comfortable with it my good man
because neither of us can do a bloody thing about it one way or
another. THAT's the real reality.

And by the way what's your callsign?

Good night.

John

w3v

You just dismissed the fact that Haynie is seeing a real problem here,
he is beginning to tell hams to stop acting like such immature jerks and
get with the program--you take these words are turn them into him giving
you an "Atta Boy!"
If you are fool enough to believe that you will have to... such denial,
avoidance and BS has stagnated us to the point where all there are, are
a bunch of guys out there too old to be of interest to QSO with--the
young guys know that and you can tell them different till the cows come
home--it will not change one thing...
I am 52 and most are too old for me... long winded rants about
yesteryear and such is a real turn off to this guy... I cringe when I
see the expressions on the young mens face who hear it on my demos of
radio...
You sit there thinking all is well--I can tell you are past anything but
an argument for maintaining status quo...
You really mean to tell me you feel the bands out there are "congested?"
Tell someone without a radio--they just might believe you...
We both hear Haynies words you think he is saying, "Good Job Guys!" I
challenge that all right, I hear him saying, "Get with it old fools!!!"

John

wrote in message
oups.com...


John Smith wrote:
Haynie said:

1) "It's not that Amateur Radio is dumbed down," he said. "People
like
me have failed to keep up, and if you look in your heart, you're
going
to say the same thing."

He's right on the money. But many hams are *not* like him, yes?

2) "...if you want people to come out of that examination room in
here
to be able to design circuits--you're in the wrong hobby."

Of course, that's been obvious to everybody else around here since
somebody first started selling spark rigs out of a catalog. Is it
somehow imperative that hams must be able to design current-tech
circuits or the sky will fall on the hobby? What's your point?

3) "I said, if we come down on the side of code, we're going to make
the no-code people mad, and if we come down on the side of the
no-code,
we're going to make the code people mad..."

Ah, but then he continued ". . so the best thing for us to do is be
evenhanded, and make everybody mad," Haynie said, tongue-in-cheek.
"And
I think we're doing a good job of it." "

In other words the League has ducked out of the code teat war this
time
and put in the hands of the FCC.

Do you have a problem with that?? I sure don't.

Your "selective snippages" are as a bare minimum a bit of comic
relief.


4) "...he predicted that the Commission will never reinstate higher
code
speed requirements as some have requested."

OBVIOUSLY . . wtf . . ?!

5) "The FCC is not going to go back to 13 and 20 words per minute,
and
you can take that to the bank," he predicted. "It's not going to
happen." The Commission went with the single 5 WPM requirement
because
it was "sick and tired" of dealing with medical waivers, he said.

This is astounding new info or what??

Although he has become a pretty smart "politician" and "diplomat"--it
is
obvious code is given very little if any importance. Now you can
argue
his words anyway you like--but you can't find one word of his which
places ANY importance on it... He HAS said old amateurs have lost
sense
of reality, that is right there in no. 1) ... argue that anyway you
like--into looking like a fool...

Smitty I'm about 99% in agreement with what Haynie stated, I'm not
arguing his words at all, I'm arguing YOUR words. Which are goofy,
naive attempts to twist reality around which we all see thru. You're
quite terrible at this game you're trying to play John but hang around
here awhile and watch how the real pros harpoon reality in this group
.
. maybe you'll get better at the game.

. . speaking of reality . . in the end when all the dust settles CW is
everywhere on the bands today and it's gonna still be on the bands
long
after you and I have both expired. Get comfortable with it my good man
because neither of us can do a bloody thing about it one way or
another. THAT's the real reality.

And by the way what's your callsign?

Good night.

John

w3v

John Smith wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


John Smith wrote:
Haynie said:

1) "It's not that Amateur Radio is dumbed down," he said. "People
like
me have failed to keep up, and if you look in your heart, you're
going
to say the same thing."

He's right on the money. But many hams are *not* like him, yes?

2) "...if you want people to come out of that examination room in
here
to be able to design circuits--you're in the wrong hobby."

Of course, that's been obvious to everybody else around here since
somebody first started selling spark rigs out of a catalog. Is it
somehow imperative that hams must be able to design current-tech
circuits or the sky will fall on the hobby? What's your point?

3) "I said, if we come down on the side of code, we're going to make
the no-code people mad, and if we come down on the side of the
no-code,
we're going to make the code people mad..."

Ah, but then he continued ". . so the best thing for us to do is be
evenhanded, and make everybody mad," Haynie said, tongue-in-cheek.
"And
I think we're doing a good job of it." "

In other words the League has ducked out of the code teat war this
time
and put in the hands of the FCC.

Do you have a problem with that?? I sure don't.

Your "selective snippages" are as a bare minimum a bit of comic
relief.


4) "...he predicted that the Commission will never reinstate higher
code
speed requirements as some have requested."

OBVIOUSLY . . wtf . . ?!

5) "The FCC is not going to go back to 13 and 20 words per minute,
and
you can take that to the bank," he predicted. "It's not going to
happen." The Commission went with the single 5 WPM requirement
because
it was "sick and tired" of dealing with medical waivers, he said.

This is astounding new info or what??

Although he has become a pretty smart "politician" and "diplomat"--it
is
obvious code is given very little if any importance. Now you can
argue
his words anyway you like--but you can't find one word of his which
places ANY importance on it... He HAS said old amateurs have lost
sense
of reality, that is right there in no. 1) ... argue that anyway you
like--into looking like a fool...

Smitty I'm about 99% in agreement with what Haynie stated, I'm not
arguing his words at all, I'm arguing YOUR words. Which are goofy,
naive attempts to twist reality around which we all see thru. You're
quite terrible at this game you're trying to play John but hang around
here awhile and watch how the real pros harpoon reality in this group
.
. maybe you'll get better at the game.

. . speaking of reality . . in the end when all the dust settles CW is
everywhere on the bands today and it's gonna still be on the bands
long
after you and I have both expired. Get comfortable with it my good man
because neither of us can do a bloody thing about it one way or
another. THAT's the real reality.

And by the way what's your callsign?

Good night.

John

w3rv

You just dismissed the fact that Haynie is seeing a real problem here,
he is beginning to tell hams to stop acting like such immature jerks and
get with the program--you take these words are turn them into him giving
you an "Atta Boy!"

I am wondering who he's allegedly talking to, then.

Those problems don't seem to be manifest here.

If you are fool enough to believe that you will have to... such denial,
avoidance and BS has stagnated us to the point where all there are, are
a bunch of guys out there too old to be of interest to QSO with--the
young guys know that and you can tell them different till the cows come
home--it will not change one thing...

Thankfully not all of us live our lives by reliving tales of
post-WW2 Japan rear area radio stations.

I am 52 and most are too old for me...

Then don't talk to them.

Funny...I've never had any of these alleged 'gastric QSO's' like
some here have alleged are the bane of HF phone.

One of the benefits of not getting on HF phone very often, I
guess! Not much challenge in "just talking".

long winded rants about
yesteryear and such is a real turn off to this guy...

Then hang out elsewhere.

I cringe when I
see the expressions on the young mens face who hear it on my demos of
radio...

Hear what?

You sit there thinking all is well--I can tell you are past anything but
an argument for maintaining status quo...

What status quo?

You really mean to tell me you feel the bands out there are "congested?"

At times they are. At others, they're not.

Tell someone without a radio--they just might believe you...
We both hear Haynies words you think he is saying, "Good Job Guys!" I
challenge that all right, I hear him saying, "Get with it old fools!!!"

Personally, I say stop top-posting. Really makes it hard to follow
your point.

And by the way, to reiterate another's question, "what's your
callsign?"

Steve, K4YZ

My real name and call are held to protect the innocent (or guilty as you
prefer.)
I have had my station inspected a couple of times, and passed with
flying colors I might add, since my fellow amateurs frowned on me
chatting with truckers and general "undesirable types" on the Chicken
Band...
I am very familiar with hams finding out your call and attempting to use
the FCC as their private police... SOME are full of dirty tricks...

Warmest regards,
John

"K4YZ" wrote in message
oups.com...
John Smith wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


John Smith wrote:
Haynie said:

1) "It's not that Amateur Radio is dumbed down," he said. "People
like
me have failed to keep up, and if you look in your heart, you're
going
to say the same thing."

He's right on the money. But many hams are *not* like him, yes?

2) "...if you want people to come out of that examination room in
here
to be able to design circuits--you're in the wrong hobby."

Of course, that's been obvious to everybody else around here since
somebody first started selling spark rigs out of a catalog. Is it
somehow imperative that hams must be able to design current-tech
circuits or the sky will fall on the hobby? What's your point?

3) "I said, if we come down on the side of code, we're going to
make
the no-code people mad, and if we come down on the side of the
no-code,
we're going to make the code people mad..."

Ah, but then he continued ". . so the best thing for us to do is
be
evenhanded, and make everybody mad," Haynie said, tongue-in-cheek.
"And
I think we're doing a good job of it." "

In other words the League has ducked out of the code teat war this
time
and put in the hands of the FCC.

Do you have a problem with that?? I sure don't.

Your "selective snippages" are as a bare minimum a bit of comic
relief.


4) "...he predicted that the Commission will never reinstate
higher
code
speed requirements as some have requested."

OBVIOUSLY . . wtf . . ?!

5) "The FCC is not going to go back to 13 and 20 words per minute,
and
you can take that to the bank," he predicted. "It's not going to
happen." The Commission went with the single 5 WPM requirement
because
it was "sick and tired" of dealing with medical waivers, he said.

This is astounding new info or what??

Although he has become a pretty smart "politician" and
"diplomat"--it
is
obvious code is given very little if any importance. Now you can
argue
his words anyway you like--but you can't find one word of his
which
places ANY importance on it... He HAS said old amateurs have lost
sense
of reality, that is right there in no. 1) ... argue that anyway
you
like--into looking like a fool...

Smitty I'm about 99% in agreement with what Haynie stated, I'm not
arguing his words at all, I'm arguing YOUR words. Which are goofy,
naive attempts to twist reality around which we all see thru.
You're
quite terrible at this game you're trying to play John but hang
around
here awhile and watch how the real pros harpoon reality in this
group
.
. maybe you'll get better at the game.

. . speaking of reality . . in the end when all the dust settles CW
is
everywhere on the bands today and it's gonna still be on the bands
long
after you and I have both expired. Get comfortable with it my good
man
because neither of us can do a bloody thing about it one way or
another. THAT's the real reality.

And by the way what's your callsign?

Good night.

John

w3rv

You just dismissed the fact that Haynie is seeing a real problem
here,
he is beginning to tell hams to stop acting like such immature jerks
and
get with the program--you take these words are turn them into him
giving
you an "Atta Boy!"

I am wondering who he's allegedly talking to, then.

Those problems don't seem to be manifest here.

If you are fool enough to believe that you will have to... such
denial,
avoidance and BS has stagnated us to the point where all there are,
are
a bunch of guys out there too old to be of interest to QSO with--the
young guys know that and you can tell them different till the cows
come
home--it will not change one thing...

Thankfully not all of us live our lives by reliving tales of
post-WW2 Japan rear area radio stations.

I am 52 and most are too old for me...

Then don't talk to them.

Funny...I've never had any of these alleged 'gastric QSO's' like
some here have alleged are the bane of HF phone.

One of the benefits of not getting on HF phone very often, I
guess! Not much challenge in "just talking".

long winded rants about
yesteryear and such is a real turn off to this guy...

Then hang out elsewhere.

I cringe when I
see the expressions on the young mens face who hear it on my demos of
radio...

Hear what?

You sit there thinking all is well--I can tell you are past anything
but
an argument for maintaining status quo...

What status quo?

You really mean to tell me you feel the bands out there are
"congested?"

At times they are. At others, they're not.

Tell someone without a radio--they just might believe you...
We both hear Haynies words you think he is saying, "Good Job Guys!"
I
challenge that all right, I hear him saying, "Get with it old
fools!!!"

Personally, I say stop top-posting. Really makes it hard to follow
your point.

And by the way, to reiterate another's question, "what's your
callsign?"

Steve, K4YZ

K4YZ wrote:
John Smith wrote:

You just dismissed the fact that Haynie is seeing a real problem here,
he is beginning to tell hams to stop acting like such immature jerks and
get with the program--

Has he been reading old copies of Wayne Green's editorials in "73
Magazine?"

you take these words are turn them into him giving
you an "Atta Boy!"

I am wondering who he's allegedly talking to, then.

Allegedly?

He's talking to you. He's talking to all of us.

Didn't you follow the link to the ARRL site?

Go back up the the top, and click on the blue thingy.

Those problems don't seem to be manifest here.

Hi!

John Smith wrote:
You just dismissed the fact that Haynie is seeing a real
problem here,
he is beginning to tell hams to stop acting like such
immature jerks

Folks like W5JBP have been saying that for a long time.

They're right, of course.

and get with the program

Which "program", though?

--you take these words are turn them into him giving
you an "Atta Boy!"

Not me.

If you are fool enough to believe that you will have to...
such denial,
avoidance and BS has stagnated us to the point where all there are, are
a bunch of guys out there too old to be of interest to QSO with- -the
young guys know that and you can tell them different till the
cows come home--it will not change one thing...

There's a lot more than "a bunch of guys too old to be of
interest" - but you have to go where they are.

I am 52 and most are too old for me... long winded rants about
yesteryear and such is a real turn off to this guy...

I am 51, been a ham more than 37 years. In all that time, there
have always been the "old buzzards" doing what you describe.
There have also always been folks who are a lot different,
regardless of age.

I cringe when I
see the expressions on the young mens face who hear it on my
demos of radio...

And how do you do these demos? You show them voice operating,
right? 75, 20, 2 meters?

Try expanding the horizons to other modes, like PSK31, Pactor, and
(gasp) Morse Code. Different worlds, different people.

You sit there thinking all is well--I can tell you are
past anything but
an argument for maintaining status quo...
You really mean to tell me you feel the bands out there
are "congested?"

Depends what bands, modes and when.

N2EY:

Granted, things are EXAGGERATED in my text... it is done to emphasize
the point...

We seem at this point of where you, "have to hit them over the head with
a 2x4 just to get their attention."

If they are shocked, angry and ready to have a go at me--so much the
better...

I am not really a "heartless old *******", although I play the part
well... grin

.... we need to give these young guys a break... frankly, you guys may
have all been different than me with my first novice ticket--however, I
know a was a young-dumb-smart-ass... now it is my turn to pay back what
those guys who put up with me back then went though--and it would help
if we all chipped in here a bit...

Not all hams are evil--in fact, I really have NEVER met a truly evil
one--so you won't get me to argue that--but some have their actions,
motivations and goals a bit misplaced...

.... "old buzzards" may have been a bit over-stated on my part... grin

.... long as we can all talk and "get real" we can work something out--I
am sure...

Warmest regards,
John
wrote in message
oups.com...
John Smith wrote:
You just dismissed the fact that Haynie is seeing a real
problem here,
he is beginning to tell hams to stop acting like such
immature jerks

Folks like W5JBP have been saying that for a long time.

They're right, of course.

and get with the program

Which "program", though?

--you take these words are turn them into him giving
you an "Atta Boy!"

Not me.

If you are fool enough to believe that you will have to...
such denial,
avoidance and BS has stagnated us to the point where all there are,
are
a bunch of guys out there too old to be of interest to QSO
with- -the
young guys know that and you can tell them different till the
cows come home--it will not change one thing...

There's a lot more than "a bunch of guys too old to be of
interest" - but you have to go where they are.

I am 52 and most are too old for me... long winded rants about
yesteryear and such is a real turn off to this guy...

I am 51, been a ham more than 37 years. In all that time, there
have always been the "old buzzards" doing what you describe.
There have also always been folks who are a lot different,
regardless of age.

I cringe when I
see the expressions on the young mens face who hear it on my
demos of radio...

And how do you do these demos? You show them voice operating,
right? 75, 20, 2 meters?

Try expanding the horizons to other modes, like PSK31, Pactor, and
(gasp) Morse Code. Different worlds, different people.

You sit there thinking all is well--I can tell you are
past anything but
an argument for maintaining status quo...
You really mean to tell me you feel the bands out there
are "congested?"

Depends what bands, modes and when.