On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 19:19:15 -0400, "Dee Flint"
spake thusly:


"Opus-" wrote in message
.. .

I have been watching this thread for a while and now I must join the
fray.

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:34:18 -0400, Dave spake
thusly:

George Orwell wrote:

Al Klein said:


Eliminating a requirement is dumbing things down. But no one would
expect you to be able to understand that.


Well, let me ask, from the point of view of a potential noob to the
hobby. What use is the code requirements?

The 'use' is something you just can't understand. The 'use' is a
commitment of
time and talent which adds value to the license. The 'use' is investment.

The term "investment" is very misleading. To explain my position, I am
in agreement that CW testing should go the way of the dinosaurs. I
have no problem with technical testing, as a way to ensure that
potential Hams can operate their radios properly, without causing
interference with neighbors and other Hams world wide. There is also a
safety factor, with transmitters that can kick out a LOT of
potentially dangerous power. So, technical exam = good idea.
Here in Canada, CW is not required IF you achieve at least 80% on your
technical exam. You need at least 55% WITH CW.
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/inter.../sf08435e.html
This seems fair, to me.

As for the "investment", not all investments are valuable. I invested
years of training to be a fully qualified mechanic. There is
considerable value in that investment, obviously, as it is my bread
and butter.

But, would my investment be more valuable if, for example, if an
additional year of carpentry training were required for me to be
certified? I mean, after all, cars had wood frames and bodies at one
time so a mechanic would have needed carpentry skills...back in the
1930's. Such an investment would be a bad one. The skills would have
no value and do nothing to enhance my skills as a mechanic. The extra
investment would have no return with regards to being a mechanic.
Carpentry would not make me a better mechanic and would not prove to
the world that I really wanted to be a mechanic.

CW is as useful to todays Hams as carpentry is to a mechanic. A good
thing to learn, and potentially useful, but should not be a barrier.


This is where your analogy falls apart. CW is currently very useful to
hams. It is in daily use. However, the arguments have already been
presented and those with closed minds have rejected them.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Sorry, but your wrong, my analogy is just fine for this subject. CW to
a ham, like carpentry to a mechanic, can be useful BUT is NOT
NECESSARY for each to do what they want to do effectively and
properly.

Don't be one of those closed minds.

Yes, a ham CAN use CW if he wants and more power to him/her to do so.
A mechanic CAN learn to be a carpenter if he wants to and more power
to him/her to do so. But carpentry will not make a mechanic a better
mechanic, no more than CW will make a ham operator a better ham
operator. More useful to themselves and others, but NOT better.

Just because carpentry COULD maybe be useful to a mechanic does not
mean that he should be required to learn carpentry to be a mechanic. A
mechanic can be a damn good mechanic without picking up a hammer and a
ham can be a damn good ham without touching a key.

I said it before and I'll say it again. 70 years ago a good mechanic
needed carpentry skills but no more. 70 years ago a good ham needed to
know code but no more. A code test for todays prospective hams is like
a carpentry test for todays prospective mechanics.

From: on Mon, Sep 4 2006 7:49 pm

wrote:
From: Thomas Edison on Mon, Sep 4 2006 1:44 am

His
actions were not only uncalled-for, but were childishly tawdry.
This alone speaks volumes of Lennie....

Tommie boy, you've just described yourself in your posting.

Now go crawl into a light bulb and think about your error
in not choosing AC over DC. And stay off that hard stuff
before your mind gets bent more than what you've shown here.



Tom Eddy is Robesin. Just another of his many personalities.

There IS a high probability of your being right, Brian.

Slipping to "Lennie" as an attempt at a last dig is a
highlighted error of this "Edison." :-)

Note also the FAILURE to document details. Robesin didn't
state who I was allegedly impersonating...further
reinforcing the "alternate personality" syndrome. All
damning but nothing specific, typical Robesin posting.

Did you catch his "conceed" posting to Mark?

Yes. Yuck. Robesin is going deeper, deeper into his abyss.

From: on Mon, Sep 4 2006 6:52 pm

wrote:
From: on Sun, Sep 3 2006 6:34 pm
wrote:
From: on Sun, Sep 3 2006 6:17 am
wrote:
From: on Sat, Sep 2 2006 3:43 pm
Fred Hambrecht wrote:

We are better than you! Was there ever any doubt? If you can't learn code
you are not only stupid but lazy as well! You have a welfare license, shut
up and enjoy what was given to your whining ass...

Mr Congenialty has spoken.

Gotta love those Code Bigots. :-)

?Has anyone run this idiots name through QRZ?

Fred Hambrecht, W4JLE, lives in South Carolina.

Jimmie Noserve showed up with his bimonthly Numbers (his period
on?)...still trying to "prove" that Technician class licensees
aren't really no-coders. :-)

Wow. Why would he think that?

Jimmy has a woodie about some past "disagreements" in here,
the inability to keep me off the forum. :-)

Yet he has absolutely no problem with anything Robesin has ever
posted...

Quite true from thousands of posts in Google archives...one of
which said "I can't control him" (or words to that effect). :-)

But that isn't the real point. Jimmy Miccolis MUST be the "guru"
of ham radio lore. He ABHORS anyone correcting ANYTHING he says.
"Cross" him in any way and one has made an enemy for life. :-)
He comes across as the prototype "Mother Superior" complete with
knuckle-spank ruler keeping everyone in (ARRL) line. Jimmy is a
True Believer in the (virtual) Church of St. Hiram and one of
the more literate of the Code Bigots. But, literacy does not
excuse manufacturing typographical errors into vast reams of
"civil discussion" which is really refined personal insults.

Davie Heil is another of the Code Bigots and is very busy being
a "street fighter" type. More elan but always, always coming
up with manufactured personal insults against non-code-test
advocates. NOT doing as He says is "moral imperfection." Part
of the problem Davie has is that he got topped years ago in his
radio experience. He made much of his "foreign travels" and
being DX, all courtesy of the US taxpayer, tried to make out like
the Department of State had vast radio networks and tried to
imply that he was doing James Bomb like activities in keeping
tabs on commies in an adjacent African country to Guinea-Bisseau.
I came along in here with some experience in Big Time 24/7 HF
radio comms (also paid for by the US taxpayer) and Davie must
have been quite put-out that ANOTHER, a NON-MORSE person, topped
his State stations. [Horrors!] His implications were obvious,
State was much more important than some old USN Chief's ship
station (two of which were in the forum back then). Having
a non-morse-loving person being involved with 40 HF transmitters
and hundreds of thousands of TTY message relays per month was
considered "not as good" as his State stations. :-) Heil is
now on some weird Code Bigot trip trying to use non-love of
morse code as some kind of "moral perversion" or that one MUST
have an amateur license BEFORE getting a professional one in
order to "show interest" in radio. :-)

The olde rrap Code Bigot troika leaves us with Stevie Robeson,
aka "Robesin" aka any number of personalities. Stevie is just
a frustrated person capable of a few things but has a mental
woodie for RANK, TITLE, STATUS big enough to dock the USS
Missouri in. He is a persistent BLUFFER, constantly alluding
and implying things.

He also lacks ANY third-party reference to his War Hero
claims and 18 years of his (supposed) life. shrug

I think Frank was the third party and you know the results.

Yes, but in a round-about way. Frank showed HIS evidence of
HIS USMC service but Robeson never did. Frank came up with
common USMC terms, events, things familiar to other Marines
(one of my old schoolmates was one and he put me through to
some other Marines to verify that). Good enough proof for
me, ex-Army and unfamiliar with intimate USMC life. Frank
was honest. Stevie was devious and PERSONALLY INSULTING.
Stevie's bluff was called and the insults were his only
"reply." Sigh. He was just an IMPOSTER, a wanna-be who
never was.

Katapult Kellie (#4) has given up on posting in here.
Maybe he is a reasonable person who merely loves using
morse but has an archtypical "Philly" attitude?


Ah, so! Well, it's part of the "morsemen can do NO wrong"
philosophy ever-present in this forum. :-)

We're in for the seventh wave of it.

Ah, "seven hostile waves"! :-)

That's the morbidly fascinating thing about the Code Bigots.
They take the code test issue so PERSONALLY. Something akin
to incestuous love? The personal identification with
morsemanship looks to be more zeal than the worst zealot.

Try to speak about the code test issue itself and ANY negative
about it is taken as a "direct personal insult" to any Code
Bigot! Amazing. Those Code Bigots come back with all sorts
of personal insults from moral deficiencies to "laziness" to
"instant gratification" and the very-telling "you in the
younger generation are no damn good and we are 'superior to
you!'" foul-mouthed emotionalism. Amazing. There seems to
be no end in sight to their intense vindictiveness!

Technically, manual morse code mode is dead or dying in the
radio world, all radio services. The efficacy of morse mode
was never proven to match the Morse Myths claims. It is
alive (and unwell) only in amateur radio, kept there in the
USA by Code Zealots (ARRL core and other olde-tymers) who
lobby for its continuation as a license test. Code testing
is extremely emotional to the Code Zealots (most of which
seem to be Code Bigots as well). They vent personal insults
against all who even remotely go for elimination of the code
test. They act as if it is the most important thing in life.

As I remarked, the vindictive zeal of these Code Bigots is
morbidly fascinating. I would like to talk about the ISSUE
of the code test but this arena is NOT the place. This forum
has degraded to self-important insulters trying to outdo
other self-important insulters with heaping gobs of plain
filth in print.


A "Sharps box" is colloquial term for a plastic container
(usually wall mounted) for biological waste in medical
facilities, sometimes referred to as just a "Sharps." Made by
B. D. Sharps company and not affiliated with the dullness of
the pro-coders. They can be seen in most doctors' offices
and hospitals all over the country.

Robesin as medical waste? Sure. Why not? He's a waste in so many
ways.

Fortunately (for the ecology) he is biodegradeable. We've
already seen that in here, him being as degrading as possible.

I disagree. He is toxic waste.

I stand corrected. You are right.


Did you see his "conceed" to Mark in another thread?

No. Too many threads of the garbage-mouthers in this group,
isn't worth skimming through all those other threads.

It was one of the most disgusting, repulsive things I've ever seen
posted on RRAP. And he presents hisself as being Mr Uprightiousness.
Ha!

He has a mouth full of excerement, complaining about others having a
mouth full excrement.

And no negative comments from the Code Crew, so it must be OK with
them.

I had just enough free time today to look over it. Yuck!

The "Al-Code-Ah" (Code Zealots) are always "right." Whatever
they do is "perfect" and only "others" are in error. There is
hardly any disagreement among themselves.

Robeson's problem is that he is too deep into bluffing his
way through things. He isn't as much a zealot about code as
he is FRUSTRATED, perhaps by his life existance. He gets
highly emotional, angry at others disagreeing with him, far
beyond reasonableness.


That reminds me. There was a No-Coder named Val that talked up the
Code and they all loved him. He was the Darling of RRAP. I wonder if
he ever learned the code?

Val Germann his name? I remember that episode, Val saying all
the "right" things to please the Code Zealots and Code Bigots.
The late W0EX was a Code Bigot and praised him to the skies...
while damning all the non-code-test advocates.

We both know what Freddie displayed. No sense in repeating
it. I agree that his demands do not put amateur radio in a
good light, but some of those Bigots are very vocal and
there seems to be some kind of "bigot morsemen's league"
where none are chastised by their brotherhood. They seem
to hold their bigotry in high regard, perhaps even as nobles.

Sort of like "honor among theives."

Deeper than that. "Droit de Signeur" seems to be closer, an
intense for-royals-only identification and all plebians can
go to hell.

Anyway, I ran Val's info on QRZ.com, and he's still a Technician.
Maybe he's a "PLUS," probably not. He played all the morsemen but they
don't mind as long as he was talking the talk, he don't have to walk
the walk. Moral of the story: play lip service to their fetish and
you'll get along just fine.

True enough. Sigh. That "lip service" stuff is rampant in
the Show Business part of L.A., even though much of the
entertainment output is mediocre. I never could see that
kind of ass-kissing and am glad to be associated with aero-
space industry rather than show biz. Electrons, fields, and
waves obey THEIR rules and don't give a damn about human
emotions or ideals. More challenging...and rewarding.

wrote:
I would like to talk about the ISSUE
of the code test but this arena is NOT the place.

That's because of *your* behavior, Len.

I have had many civilized, respectful, well-behaved code-test
discussions here with Phil Kane, K2ASP and Bill Sohl, K2UNK. The latter
is a director of No-Code International, and is one of the staunchest
no-code-test advocates around. Yet he makes his points without the
name-calling and personal insults that are your stock-in-trade whenever
someone disagrees with you. Same for K2ASP.

Both of them have disappeared from rrap. I stop back once in a while to
see if things have changed. They haven't. I post a few license numbers
here, and you're off on a tear with insults and general adherence to
your profile. Pitiful, really.

It's easy to tell when you start losing an argument - that's when you
start with the nicknames and personal insults.

This forum
has degraded to self-important insulters trying to outdo
other self-important insulters with heaping gobs of plain
filth in print.

Whose fault is that? Not mine. You don't seem to be able to control
yourself here, let alone those folks.

---

You should work on your Morse Code skills, Len.

wrote:
On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 16:44:46 GMT, Dave Heil
wrote:
Not ####sucker Lloyd wrote:
wrote:

As I've said, I've never ever tried to, nor had any need to
"impersonate" anyone in any newsgroup nor on any website.
I am secure in who I am and what I've done.


Sure you are, "Stagger Lee."

Are you losing your grip, UnWiseman? You thought I was Stagger Lee.
You thought Lloyd was Stagger Lee. You believed that someone named
Chason was Stagger Lee. Now Len is Stagger Lee. You are behaving
(what's new) irrationally.

he has no grip on reality anymore heis now claiming I am HAVING sex
with Robeson

althought to be fair Robeson is making the same claim

No...it would be a lie to day I've claimed that you're having sex
with me.

It WOULD be fair to say that I have conceeded that you have had
experiences that I never will have...Tasting my excrement on another
man's genitals is one of them.

Steve, K4YZ

From: on Wed, Sep 6 2006 4:37 am


wrote:

I would like to talk about the ISSUE
of the code test but this arena is NOT the place.

That's because of *your* behavior, Len.

Oh, oh, M. Superior got her knickers in a twist again
and tries to ruler-spank... :-)

I have had many civilized, respectful, well-behaved code-test
discussions here with Phil Kane, K2ASP and Bill Sohl, K2UNK. The latter
is a director of No-Code International, and is one of the staunchest
no-code-test advocates around. Yet he makes his points without the
name-calling and personal insults that are your stock-in-trade whenever
someone disagrees with you. Same for K2ASP.

Cut the crap, Jimmy. Quit trying to present yourself as
the oh-so-very-SUPERIOR "Mr. Perfect." You are NOT perfect
nor an "example of good comportment." You come across as
both superior and arrogant...plus the total inflexibility of
considering other folks' opinions and viewpoints.

This is NOT a thread to discuss OLD HISTORY of US amateur
radio as spoon-fed you by the ARRL. The ARRL is NOT a group
of "perfect" leaders with "perfect" comportment, either.

Jimmy, if you can't stand newsgroup heat, get OUT. It
obviously upsets you to be challenged or not recognized
as a "newsgroup leader."

Both of them have disappeared from rrap.

ERROR! Bill and Phil are still in Google archives. Anyone
can go look for themselves.

I stop back once in a while to see if things have changed.

How noble of you. :-)

I post a few license numbers here, and you're off on a tear
with insults and general adherence to your profile.

Poor baby. More evidence of how you can't stand the heat
of newsgroup behavior. You crib someone else's stats
without giving them credit, then repeat boilerplate
paragraphs that are seven yours old, implying that those
are "yours" and you get all upset about being called on
that? ANYONE can find statistics on the number of
licensees and classes and the growth/loss figures. See
QRZ and Hamdata for two readily-accessible sources.

Tsk, you have serious problems with PAST disagreements.
Back at the last restructuring you tried to play with
percentages to somehow "prove" that the Technician class
belongs in the code-tested group because code zealot
Speroni lumped them together in HIS biased-for-code
website. That's all in the Google Archives but one has
to go back a few years to see it. A transparent attempt
Jimmy and several called you out on it. That's also in
archives.

It's easy to tell when you start losing an argument - that's when you
start with the nicknames and personal insults.

Being against morse code testing IS a "personal insult" to
any Code Zealot. TS for them. :-)

Tsk, more evidence of the self-described "superiority" of
the Code Zealots. THEY can do NO wrong...such as Robeson,
Heil, "Slow-Blow Code" and others, all having maximum-rate
code-tested licenses (unknown about Blow Code who won't
state his/her callsign). Not to mention the anony-mousies
such as "Thomas Edison" or "Not Cocksucker Lloyd," etc.

You concentrate on ONE or TWO posters at a time, Jimmy,
always denigrating and claiming "error" on the part of no-
code-test advocates. You are obviously subjective as hell
while claiming "objectivity." Total PR bull****, Jimmy.

This forum
has degraded to self-important insulters trying to outdo
other self-important insulters with heaping gobs of plain
filth in print.

Whose fault is that? Not mine.

Tsk, tsk, did YOU think that sentence was about YOU?!? Good
grief, you have a great big EGO problem, superior Jimmy.

Go apply your Mother Superior ruler-spanking on THEM if you
want to strike a blow for morsemanship. Got the guts? Or
do you consider yourself so "superior" that you don't engage
in plebian behavior?

---

You should work on your PEOPLE SKILLS, Jimmy.

--
wind·bag (wndbg)
n.

Opus- wrote in
:

On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 19:19:15 -0400, "Dee Flint"
spake thusly:


"Opus-" wrote in message
. ..

I have been watching this thread for a while and now I must join the
fray.

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:34:18 -0400, Dave spake
thusly:

George Orwell wrote:

Al Klein said:


Eliminating a requirement is dumbing things down. But no one would
expect you to be able to understand that.


Well, let me ask, from the point of view of a potential noob to the
hobby. What use is the code requirements?

The 'use' is something you just can't understand. The 'use' is a
commitment of
time and talent which adds value to the license. The 'use' is
investment.

The term "investment" is very misleading. To explain my position, I am
in agreement that CW testing should go the way of the dinosaurs. I
have no problem with technical testing, as a way to ensure that
potential Hams can operate their radios properly, without causing
interference with neighbors and other Hams world wide. There is also a
safety factor, with transmitters that can kick out a LOT of
potentially dangerous power. So, technical exam = good idea.
Here in Canada, CW is not required IF you achieve at least 80% on your
technical exam. You need at least 55% WITH CW.
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/inter.../sf08435e.html
This seems fair, to me.

As for the "investment", not all investments are valuable. I invested
years of training to be a fully qualified mechanic. There is
considerable value in that investment, obviously, as it is my bread
and butter.

But, would my investment be more valuable if, for example, if an
additional year of carpentry training were required for me to be
certified? I mean, after all, cars had wood frames and bodies at one
time so a mechanic would have needed carpentry skills...back in the
1930's. Such an investment would be a bad one. The skills would have
no value and do nothing to enhance my skills as a mechanic. The extra
investment would have no return with regards to being a mechanic.
Carpentry would not make me a better mechanic and would not prove to
the world that I really wanted to be a mechanic.

CW is as useful to todays Hams as carpentry is to a mechanic. A good
thing to learn, and potentially useful, but should not be a barrier.


This is where your analogy falls apart. CW is currently very useful to
hams. It is in daily use. However, the arguments have already been
presented and those with closed minds have rejected them.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Sorry, but your wrong, my analogy is just fine for this subject. CW to
a ham, like carpentry to a mechanic, can be useful BUT is NOT
NECESSARY for each to do what they want to do effectively and
properly.

Don't be one of those closed minds.

Yes, a ham CAN use CW if he wants and more power to him/her to do so.
A mechanic CAN learn to be a carpenter if he wants to and more power
to him/her to do so. But carpentry will not make a mechanic a better
mechanic, no more than CW will make a ham operator a better ham
operator. More useful to themselves and others, but NOT better.

Just because carpentry COULD maybe be useful to a mechanic does not
mean that he should be required to learn carpentry to be a mechanic. A
mechanic can be a damn good mechanic without picking up a hammer and a
ham can be a damn good ham without touching a key.

I said it before and I'll say it again. 70 years ago a good mechanic
needed carpentry skills but no more. 70 years ago a good ham needed to
know code but no more. A code test for todays prospective hams is like
a carpentry test for todays prospective mechanics.


When you have to spend time building a skill, you spend more time learning
other related things as well. Hams that haven't had to study to pass a 13
wpm CW exam, probably don't know the written portion of the exam as will
as hams that did. If I hadn't had to pass 20 wpm for my Extra, I would
have taken the exam a lot sooner, but as I had to build my CW abilities, I
also spend more time learning the theory too. It made me a better ham.


You people don't want knowledgable hams anymore. CB'ers dont have to
learn CW, are they better?

SC

wrote:

woger: lying kook on parade
http://www.mipsor.state.mi.us/mipsor/default.htm

wrote:
wrote:
From: on Mon, Sep 4 2006 7:49 pm


Tom Eddy is Robesin. Just another of his many personalities.

There IS a high probability of your being right, Brian.

Maybe I spoke too soon. Should have let Tom Eddy go on for a few more
days and reveal more of his Robesinisms.

"uncalled for..."

"childishly tawdry..."

"speaks volumes..."

"Lennie..."
indeed I suspect Robeson is finding life as Robeson on RRAp to rough
for him so he is preparing to go the Wismen route and god only what a
torrent of filth we will be treated too

Slipping to "Lennie" as an attempt at a last dig is a
highlighted error of this "Edison." :-)

Yep.

Note also the FAILURE to document details. Robesin didn't
state who I was allegedly impersonating...further
reinforcing the "alternate personality" syndrome. All
damning but nothing specific, typical Robesin posting.

The "childishly tawdry" part sounds like he just put down a harlequin
romance starring Fabio. I can't wait for him to tell us that he's
"livid." ;^)

Did you catch his "conceed" posting to Mark?

Yes. Yuck. Robesin is going deeper, deeper into his abyss.



After that layered filth, he complains that Mark isn't "acting human."
Hi!

I gues to make "human" in his eyes I would have to NOT point out is
errors (or comet on his efforts to INVLE ME in his love life)

well Ladies and gents if Robeson is Good example of Human I don't want
to be a human

If he is to be considered a good ham I don't want to be one of those
either

but he is neither