wrote:
From: on Thurs, Sep 14 2006 4:31 am
wrote:
From: Dave Heil on Mon, Sep 11 2006 9:45 pm
wrote:
From: Dave Heil on Mon, Sep 11 2006 2:46 pm
wrote:
From: Dave Heil 940 on Sun, Sep 10 2006 3:26 pm
wrote:
From: on Sun, Sep 10 2006 7:55 am
wrote:
From: on Thurs, Sep 7 2006 6:53 pm
wrote:

YOU are not of the FCC, not an official thereof...
Sometimes there's no other recourse but to use a 2x4
to bang on the heads of 1x2s. :-)

Ah yes - threats of physical violence. Shows how superior your
arguments aren't, Len.

Bad sentence structure, Jimmy Noserve. :-)

Tsk. Sissy-prissy horrifications about "threats of physical
violence?" :-) About some WORD PLAY?!? Poor baby...

You've tried those kinds of threats of violence here before, Len.
Really brave of you, considering I'm a couple of thousand miles away.

Such threats, even with smileys, are the mark of someone who can't make
their point verbally.

Fearless Leader wannabes ought to look around inside the
newsgroup for REAL "threats of violence." Go make your
horrified revelations about "threats of violence" to
that other radio amateur "Not Cocksucker Lloyd." He wants
to KILL Mark. Stated that in message(s).

What does that have to do with me? I do not know who "Lloyd" is, where
s/he is, or what the disagreement between "Lloyd" and "Mark" is. He has
not threatened to "use a 2x4 to bang on the heads of 1x2s."

In fact I don't read much of rrap at all anymore. Too much noise and
too little signal. You replied to my posting so I read what you wrote.
Now you're all upset, shouting and carrying on like an overtired
two-year-old because I disagree with you and point out your mistakes.

But...you only target the no-code-test advocates for your
whining no-violence "complaints." You say you "can't control
them (other morsemen)."

The only person I can "control" is myself, Len.

For some reason you assign group blame - if one Morse Code test
advocate does something you dislike, you hold *all* Morse Code test
advocates responsible. That's just plain illogical, Len. It makes no
sense at all. Yet you keep on doing it - why?

H Y P O C R I T E

You can't be talking about me when you use that word, Len.

Everyone can, by now, see your Game, Jimmy.

Actually I have several games. I like chess, Scrabble, Monopoly and
Yahtzee. Also amateur radio contesting, which is a game of sorts.

Tsk, tsk. All I'm doing is advocating the elimination
of the morse code test for US amateur radio licensing...for
the benefit of anyone who might want to enjoy the HOBBY of
amateur radio.

No, that's not all you're doing here, Len.

You, sure as hell isn't frozen, are NOT promoting anything
but visions of your own 'expertise' (doubtful beyond
morsemanship) and a RETROGRADE holding-back of the hobby of
US amateur radio...a freezing of time to the standards and
practices of ham radio of the 1930s.

That's simply not the case, Len.

And that sort of thing sounds odd coming from someone who wanted to
freeze their neighborhood to the standards and practices of zoning in
the 1960s.

Lowering the requirement may do more harm than benefit.

You mean ELIMINATION OF THE CODE TEST FOR AN AMATEUR LICENSE.

Not just that. Lowering the written test requirements as well. Also the
imposition of age requirements for an amateur radio license. Such
changes *may* do more harm than benefit. That's a plain and simple
fact.

YES, that would do "harm" to all the 20 WPM tested US amateur
extra class who got their status, rank, title, and privileges
through testing for morsemanship.
It would strip their
BRAGGING RIGHTS in amateur radio.

How?

Boo hoo. Psychological
shock to their self-righteous, self-described "expertise"
wherein they are "better" than lesser mortals (see Fred
Hambrecht's outright "we are better than you" statement).

Perhaps you should read what Fred actually wrote and try to understand
what he is actually promoting.

You should also read my reply to him.

btw, I am not in control of what Fred posts here.

Benefit? Absolutely NONE for the smug, arrogant morsemen
sitting around preening and posturing they "are better!"
(through morsemanship skills).

Gee, Len, you spend much of your verbiage here telling us how superior
*you* are.

When have I described myself as being "better"? Exact quotes, not your
misinterpretations, please.

LOTS OF BENEFIT to the FUTURE of amateur radio...an amateur
radio that is NOT ego-centric to morsemen and morsemanship.
That future has already begun...the love and appreciation of
morsemanship as the epitome of amateur radio skill is
dwindling in US amateur radio...has been dwindling for years.

Why do you care, Len?

Amateur morsemen are "leaders" in amateur radio only through
antiquated regulations (law) and the stubborn, obstinate
refusal of the (no longer) mighty "representative of US
amateur radio" (the ARRL) to lobby for a PROGRESSIVE future.

No, that's not the case at all, Len.

You really seem to be jealous of those who have a skill set that you
don't have.

Older Amateur morsemen lobbied for, and got, US amateur
regulations that perpetuate the IMAGE of morsemanship as
this epitome of amateur skill. Now they cry 'wrong' and
'foul' as the sky threatens to fall on their self-righteous
self-depiction, egotistical vision of themselves.

Yes, it WILL be 'harmful' to a minority group. Tsk, tsk.
Their mighty EGOS might be deflated. Boo hoo.

What harm would come to you if houses with apartments were built in
your neighborhood, Len?

Some of your statements are wrong, Len. In fact many of the statements
you make here are wrong.

ONLY by self-righteous amateur morsemen standards.

By any objective standards. For example, the ARRL has, in the past, had
more than 25% of US licensed radio amateurs as members.

You commented to the FCC. Happy now?

No. The FCC has taken NO VISIBLE ACTION on the NPRM of
last year.

Actually, they have.

"ACTUALLY" THE FCC HAS TAKEN NO VISIBLE ACTION ON THE NPRM.

Actually, they have. You just missed it.

What IS it that makes it so hard for you to understand that?
Is it the psychological fear you must have inside that your
self-righteous, self-described, egotistical rank, status,
titles, and privileges will DIMINISH?

It's the fact that FCC made an announcement about when they would put
out the R&O. The announcement boiled down to 'not any time soon'.

FCC said, back in the early summer, they weren't going to make an
announcement any time soon.

That is an official Federal Communications Commission statement?

It was in a statement by an FCC official. You missed it - I didn't.

Strange...it wasn't on the FCC website, did not appear in the
Federal Register. Neither was it on the national newscasts
or in major newspapers.

Try looking a little harder - no, smarter.

"Visible action" would be a Report and Order on a DECISION
in regard to the NPRM. NONE HAS BEEN MADE AS OF THE FEDERAL
REGISTER AS OF THURSDAY, 14 SEPTEMBER 2006.

That's not the only visible action, Len.

There had been speculation of an R&O in
time for Dayton, but FCC said no to that.

"Speculation" is NOT ACTION. "Speculation" is what the
ARRL states when THEY DON'T KNOW.

This info did not come to me via ARRL, Len.

But you weren't a radio amateur then - or now.

But, YOU are NOT a regulator of US amateur radio, then,
now, future, or anyplace but your warped imagination.

Neither are you, Len. You're just on the sidelines yelling.

Go to Ebay and buy a clue: YOU do NOT 'decide'
who GETS INTO amateur radio over and above any
other citizen.

And neither do you, Len. I've had my say with the FCC - that really
seems to bother you.

A radio HOBBY requiring federal
licensing is NOT a "clubhouse" or "fraternity"
(or sorority) where YOU can "rule" over others.

It's a radio *service*, Len. And like it or not, I'm part of it and
you're not.

OH! You must mean FEDERALLY LICENSED "amateur" radio!

That's what the term "amateur radio" means. You're not a part of it.

Do you REALLY understand the definition of "amateur?"

Yes.

Do you really understand the definition of "amateur radio"?

No, you don't. Just like all those other amateurs who
mis-use the word "service" AS IF they were a 'service to
the country' by taking up the HOBBY of amateur radio.

Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country? If so, you are very wrong.

You think TOO much of yourself and your rank-status-title
as an AMATEUR extra class radio licensee.

Says who?

The training and experience you received in military service were
subsidized by the taxpayers. So was any work on "government funded"
projects.

Do you want YOUR tax money refunded on account of that?

That disturbs you? If disturbed, you can always file a
complaint with the General Accounting Office of the US
government on it. How about the Attorney General? You
can even go to CBS television network and get on "60
Minutes" to complain to the viewers how that is an oh-
such-a-heinous "crime" against them! :-)

The fact remains that the training and experience you received in
military service were
subsidized by the taxpayers. So was any work on "government funded"
projects.

Where did I say government subsidy was a bad thing? That's your beef.

WE do NOT know WHERE or WHAT the-amateur-formerly-known-
as 'N2EY' works, does, or how much he (or she) is
"subsidized" by any government.

Who is "we", Len? I know where I work and what I do, as do some of the
folks who read rrap.

I have held the amateur radio callsign N2EY since 1977 and my license
is up to date. Nothing "formerly" about it.

That individual NEVER
served in the US military, has NEVER taken an oath to
put his LIFE on the line in the defense of his country.
Make all the noise you want about "subsidies," Jimmy,
but EVERY soldier, sailor, airman, or marine has THEIR
LIFE on the line when they serve in the military. NO
EXCEPTIONS. Ain't no "subsidy" that gives back life.

The fact remains that the training and experience you received in
military service were
subsidized by the taxpayers. So was any work on "government funded"
projects.

There are plenty of people who are not in the military who put their
lives on the line, too. For example, firemen, law enforcement officers,
emergency response people, many health care workers are at risk of
death in their line of work.

They *all* deserve respect for what they do.

The "training" I got in the US Army was minimal. The
"experience" was great (I thought it remarkable because
of the eye-opening into the Big World of HF comms
instead of the hobby of amateur radio). But, you fail
to understand that each and every soldier in the US
Army is, as the phrase was repeated to us, "A soldier
FIRST and a specialist second."

The fact remains that the training and experience you received in
military service were
subsidized by the taxpayers. So was any work on "government funded"
projects.

Did you think (without asking) that ALL my civilian work
was on "government contracts?"

No. But I know some of it was.

WRONG. Now hear this:
AT NO TIME IN MY WORKING LIFE BEFORE OR AFTER MILITARY
SERVICE DID I EVER WORK FOR ANYTHING BUT A CIVILIAN
COMPANY, BUSINESS, OR CORPORATION. During that time I
have NEVER received any "subsidy" from any government.
NEVER have I worked for any government agency, been
a civilian employee, OR SOUGHT any job/task/position
with any branch of the government.

Yet you worked on projects that were funded by the government, right?
If so, you were subsidized by the taxpayers.

Farmers and agribusiness corporations receive DIRECT
subsidies from the US government. Take your crying
to THEM, not me.

Your subsidies were indirect but they were still subsidies. If your
employer was paid by the govt. for work you did, then your paycheck
came from the taxpayers.

When you dismount from your high hobby horse you can
- if you have the courage - tell what YOU do for a
living?

Why should I tell you, Len? I already know how you will react.

Besides doing (as one of your Comments on an
NPRM said) "transportation industry" work.

Is transportation unimportant, Len? Is the transportation industry not
a worthwhile career?

You haven't got the GUTS to explain, do you?

It's not about guts, Len.

Think about this: "K8MN" was a civilian employee of
the US Department of State (they call it "The Foreign
Service"), long enough to receive a nice pension on
retirement, ALL paid for by the US taxpayer. ALL.
Even for BEING DX.

Hans Brakob

K0HB

spent most of his life in the USN, rising
to topmost enlisted rank, got his "thirty" honorably.
[he made his DD-214 visible to all]

Bill Sohl

K2UNK

served honorably in the USN also. Like Hans,
Bill was a sailor first, a specialist second.

Phil Kane

K2ASP

served as a commissioned officer in the
US military as a missle launcher. He also served the
government of Israel.

Phil also worked for the FCC.


Now all four mentioned received monetary compensation
from a government for their military service and gained
experience (and a variety of training) IN that REAL
military service. Would you say THEY were "subsidized
by the taxpayer?"

Yes - they were all subsidized by the taxpayers.

Is that a bad thing to you?

[no, you would exclude them because
they got amateur licenses and are not your newsgroup
'enemy']

Yet three of the four are no-code-test advocates...

And you're not a part of amateur radio, Len.

Which means WHAT, Jimmy Noserve? That YOU "regulate" who
is allowed to GET IN? That amateur radio licensees have
'more rights' than the rest of us US citizens?

All it means is that you aren't a participant. You're all talk and no
action. All hat and no cattle. All theory and no practice.

"Amateur" means
"without pecuniary interest." Non-professional. The
definition is semantically equivalent to a HOBBY, an
avocation.

Being licensed is part of the definition. No amateur radio license
means not a part of amateur radio.

Tsk. You will quibble semantics forever just to appear
YOU are "right." :-)

No. Because I *am* right.

Do you have professional qualifications as a master of
etymology, English as she are spoke, or have earned
actual money from the sale of work to publications?

I've earned money from the sale of work to publications, Len.

Hint: I've sold work (that's the name for authored
articles in the publishing biz) to more than just Ham
Radio magazine. [but you really don't want to know
that except to make denigrations of it...:-) ]

Selling something does not make one "right".

It was a very good film, by the same folks who gave us "Chicken Run"
and the "Wallace and Gromit" short films.

They revived and brought to new levels the old technology of clay
animation. While "Were-Rabbit" used some CGI, almost all of the
animation used the old methods.

Quick, Jimmy...go to Chicago so you can appear as a
guest replacement for Roger Ebert on "Ebert and Roeper!"
There's still a chance for you to get famous. If you
are clever, you can slip in some biased PR for morse
code and reach MILLIONS in the audience! :-)

[that would be one helluva lot better than what the
ARRL has done so far...]

I guess Aardman shouldn't have used the 'technology of the 1930s', huh?

You're not wrong *all* the time, Len. Just some of the time. You just
don't like having your errors pointed out and corrected.

Sweetums, you MANUFACTURE "errors" (that aren't really
errors per se, only some semantic quibbles and bits
that only satisfy your image hunger). Bone apetite,
doggy boy.

Your errors are of all kinds, Len. You make them, not me.

For an alleged professional writer you sure don't proofread or check
facts very well.

You demonstrate intolerance of anyone who disagrees with you.

So, call the ACLU and file Civil Rights suits.

That would fit you better than Men's Wearhouse could. :-)

Try to understand, Jimmy, TRY...YOUR opinions about
major political issues (as in elimination/retention
of the morse code test) are NOT intrinsically
"right." Neither are those who DISAGREE with you
automatically "wrong." Really. In reality.

That's true.

However, your intolerance of disagreement with your opinions is
demonstrated in practically everything you post here.

YOU are NOT "judge" over "rightness" despite umpteen
years as a federally licensed amateur radio operator
complete with rank, status, title, and privilege
achieved mainly through morsemanship.

I'm a judge of what's true and what isn't, Len.

Now, I am SURE you think it is "intolerant" of me to
disagree with your god-given authority of "rightness"
and "wrongness" about morsemanship.

It's your uncivil and childish behavior that's intolerant, Len.

I have NO
tolerance for BIGOTRY. I have NO tolerance for any
who posture and preen, think so highly of their
accomplishments that they say they are "better" than
mortals through morsemanship in an amateur radio
hobby. I have little tolerance for smug, arrogant
claims of radio "superiority" based on meeting 1930s
standards and practices in a HOBBY activity.

Jimmy, I really don't have much tolerance for you
as a person. You've made fun of my military service
(that I did long ago), manufactured great mountains of
out-of-context mentions as "errors" and thought of
yourself as the mighty military maven, all without
serving your country one day in any military branch.

Where did I make fun of anyone's military service, Len? Show us.

I know that *you* made fun of a Coast Guard radio operator's military
service, though, in the classic "sphincters" post.

Yet, there you sit in front of your computer, "unable
to control" another amateur extra morseman who bluffs
his way trying to appear the Last Action Hero, all
without providing a single bit of proof of 18 years
of his alleged "military career."

What someone else posts here is their business, Len.

You made some weak-
sister postings to him some time ago, yet you feel
compelled to spend hours composing "corrections"
(read Lectures from the ARRL good book) of OTHERS.

You mean how I point out your mistakes? That's straight from me, Len,
not the ARRL or anybody else.

Now do try and behave a bit more civilly.

You should work on your Morse Code skills - and your people skills.

From: on Thurs, Sep 14 2006 3:36 pm

wrote:
From: on Thurs, Sep 14 2006 4:31 am
wrote:
From: Dave Heil on Mon, Sep 11 2006 9:45 pm
wrote:
From: Dave Heil on Mon, Sep 11 2006 2:46 pm
wrote:
From: Dave Heil 940 on Sun, Sep 10 2006 3:26 pm
wrote:
From: on Sun, Sep 10 2006 7:55 am
wrote:
From: on Thurs, Sep 7 2006 6:53 pm
wrote:

YOU are not of the FCC, not an official thereof...

Sometimes there's no other recourse but to use a 2x4
to bang on the heads of 1x2s. :-)

Ah yes - threats of physical violence. Shows how superior your
arguments aren't, Len.

Bad sentence structure, Jimmy Noserve. :-)

Tsk. Sissy-prissy horrifications about "threats of physical
violence?" :-) About some WORD PLAY?!? Poor baby...

You've tried those kinds of threats of violence here before, Len.

Oh, dear, the Mighty Macho Morseman is AFRAID?!?

Afraid of VIOLINS? Shall we all BOW down to him lest
he pop a STRING? He wants to ROSIN his way out?

BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Such threats, even with smileys, are the mark of someone who can't make
their point verbally.

Oh, oh, her holiness Mother Superior is on duty!


Fearless Leader wannabes ought to look around inside the
newsgroup for REAL "threats of violence." Go make your
horrified revelations about "threats of violence" to
that other radio amateur "Not Cocksucker Lloyd." He wants
to KILL Mark. Stated that in message(s).

What does that have to do with me? I do not know who "Lloyd" is, where
s/he is, or what the disagreement between "Lloyd" and "Mark" is. He has
not threatened to "use a 2x4 to bang on the heads of 1x2s."

Awwww..."you don't know...." Poor thing isn't aware or
informed. [David Horowitz would be horrified]

Tsk, I post a cute saying (actually thought up by another
amateur extra who did pass a 20 WPM code test) and you
come all UNGLUED! Quick, call Eastman for more
cyanoacrylic adhesive!

In fact I don't read much of rrap at all anymore. Too much noise and
too little signal. You replied to my posting so I read what you wrote.
Now you're all upset, shouting and carrying on like an overtired
two-year-old because I disagree with you and point out your mistakes.

Me, "upset?" I pushed your buttons, mighty morseman
and you come back in TYPICAL fashion, all prissy-sissy.

Makes it very easy to walk all over your posting!

But...you only target the no-code-test advocates for your
whining no-violence "complaints." You say you "can't control
them (other morsemen)."

The only person I can "control" is myself, Len.

Nope. You've lost control after hitting the spike strip
of reality on the morse highway.

For some reason you assign group blame - if one Morse Code test
advocate does something you dislike, you hold *all* Morse Code test
advocates responsible.

Absolutely! :-)

Devout morsemen can either hang together or hang separately.
No problem to me. [got enough rope for either]

Oh! Oh! Tremble, Jimmy, "more violence!" "more violence!"


H Y P O C R I T E

You can't be talking about me when you use that word, Len.

Absolutely AM! :-)



Lowering the requirement may do more harm than benefit.

You mean ELIMINATION OF THE CODE TEST FOR AN AMATEUR LICENSE.

Not just that. Lowering the written test requirements as well.

WHICH no-code-test advocate said that?

[Answer: NONE...that was a fabrication by morsemen]

There is NO UPPER LIMIT on the written test elements
in the Question Pool, Jimmy...leastways NOT from the
FCC. The legal minimum is TEN pool questions for EACH
required pool question. The QPC could generate 10, 20,
maybe 30 times the legal minimum and be lawful...but
eventually the question pool and answers could be
greater than the best eidetic's abilities.

Also the
imposition of age requirements for an amateur radio license.

Poor baby, still FIXATED on 7 years ago!

I STOPPED pursuing that suggestion to the FCC (on the
last page of my Comment on NPRM 98-143) SEVEN YEARS AGO!
Since FCC 99-412 (the Report and Order on Restructuring)
nullified all those Comments in regards to the FCC
decision and did not pick up on my suggestion, I didn't
continue after that.

BUT...all the angry pro-code-test morsemen seem to LIKE
necro-equine flagellation ('beating a dead horse') and
a few beaters (like yourself) are intent on trying to
breathe life in to the creature no matter what.

We can all guess WHY you are doing it, Jimmy. You are
obsessed with trying to prove ME 'doing wrong' and have
MANUFACTURED things that haven't existed for a long time.

DROP it, Jimmy. I did, long ago. All you are doing is
beating off, er beating that very dead horse.

Stop with your necrophilia.


YES, that would do "harm" to all the 20 WPM tested US amateur
extra class who got their status, rank, title, and privileges
through testing for morsemanship. It would strip their
BRAGGING RIGHTS in amateur radio.

How?

Your "friends and neighbors" might not come over to "admire
your work!"

BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


btw, I am not in control of what Fred posts here.

Riiiight...but you love to attempt controlling what I
write! :-)


Gee, Len, you spend much of your verbiage here telling us how superior
*you* are.

Mais non, mon petit. I just stated what I did and where
at what time. If you think that was 'better than you'
then you have an odd insecurity problem.



Why do you care, Len?

Why do you care why I care? :-)


No, that's not the case at all, Len.

You have a case by Halliburton. :-)



Some of your statements are wrong, Len. In fact many of the statements
you make here are wrong.

ONLY by self-righteous amateur morsemen standards.

By any objective standards. For example, the ARRL has, in the past, had
more than 25% of US licensed radio amateurs as members.

When? In 1952? In 1939? :-)



It was in a statement by an FCC official. You missed it - I didn't.

I check the Federal Register daily...the FCC website weekly.

When and by whom was this "statement" made?



But, YOU are NOT a regulator of US amateur radio, then,
now, future, or anyplace but your warped imagination.

Neither are you, Len. You're just on the sidelines yelling.

Tsk, tsk, then all YOU are is ON THE SIDELINES YELLING
at no-code-test advocates. :-)


I've had my say with the FCC - that really seems to bother you.

None at all. :-) If you were worth the effort you'd have
been Replied to. No problem.


It's a radio *service*, Len. And like it or not, I'm part of it and
you're not.

All throughout Title 47 C.F.R., the word "service" is a
regulatory term denoting a type and kind of radio activity
being regulated.

See Citizens Band Radio SERVICE or Radio Control Radio SERVICE.

Are you my waiter tonight? Good, then you can serve us
something palatable instead of long-dead, severly beaten
horsemeat.


OH! You must mean FEDERALLY LICENSED "amateur" radio!

That's what the term "amateur radio" means. You're not a part of it.

Do you REALLY understand the definition of "amateur?"

Yes.

Insufficient answer. You already said you were a "SERVICE."

Try to get your act together. And be quick with that
horsemeat.


Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country?

Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES.

United States amateur radio could disappear at midnight and
the regular and emergency communications of the USA would
keep on functioning. Police would respond to radio calls,
fire engines would roll, ambulances would be dispatched,
Local governments would continue without pause, already
having lots and lots of radio equipment and operators.
Air traffic would continue, maritime traffic would continue,
trains would still be training, highways would continue to
function (and be repaired/renovated) as needed, all without
ham radio. Cellular telephony would continue (1 in 3
Americans having one), the Internet would continue, landline
telephony would continue. Mass Media (Broadcasting) would
continue unabated. The Forest Service would continue
spotting fires, reporting any via their own radios. River
and Inland Waterways would still have their VHF FM voice
communications. GPSS would continue functioning. NOAA
would still continue with weather information. Emergencies
at sea would still be handled by GMDSS. Emergencies in the
air would still be handled by VHF (over land) and HF voice
(over ocean). Emergencies on land would be handled by a
variety of Public Safety Radio Service facilities, all tied
together in large networks that operate nicely.

All in the preceding paragraph are INDEPENDENT of amateur
radio, Jimmy. They ARE a definite SERVICE to the USA and
the people within it. Public safety 24/7.

Now, it MIGHT happen that aliens from outer space MIGHT
invade the earth. "ONLY" morse code skill can possibly
thwart these advanced aliens who have sufficient knowledge
and intelligence to cross interstellar space? [work on
your script some more...it was already done...]


The fact remains that the training and experience you received in
military service were
subsidized by the taxpayers. So was any work on "government funded"
projects.

Tsk, tsk, tsk...all of Heil's 'foreign service' adventures,
salary, expenses, et al, came DIRECTLY out of government.
No "subsidy" there.

I have NEVER worked for any business, company, corporation
that was "subsidized" by the government. NONE.

You are confused on the use of the word "subsidy."


Who is "we", Len? I know where I work and what I do, as do some of the
folks who read rrap.

And the REST of us are kept in the dark. Is this a mystery
game you made up? :-) Something to take the place of
playing "old maid?"

Are you ASHAMED of your job? AFRAID someone will POKE FUN
at it? Why? You aren't hesitant about poking fun at whatever
job a no-code-test-advocate has...you've done that repeatedly.


There are plenty of people who are not in the military who put their
lives on the line, too. For example, firemen, law enforcement officers,
emergency response people, many health care workers are at risk of
death in their line of work.

Save all your homily grits for the next 9/11 anniversary.

Don't try to weasel out of what I said.


They *all* deserve respect for what they do.

Then start SHOWING that "respect" to some of us you've
made fun of...HYPOCRITE.


Yet you worked on projects that were funded by the government, right?
If so, you were subsidized by the taxpayers.

NOT "subsidies."


... If your employer was paid by the govt. for work you did, then
your paycheck came from the taxpayers.

INCORRECT AGAIN! [don't you ever learn]

My salary checks came from private businesses/corporations.
If you insist on going into some strange financial trail
excursion where you need a CPA with superskills. :-)

But, you still don't have the GUTS to tell "the rest of us"
in this newsgroup what, where of your employment, do you?
No, you want to negatively criticize those of us who are
proud and enthusiastic about what we do, have done.


When you dismount from your high hobby horse you can
- if you have the courage - tell what YOU do for a
living?

Why should I tell you, Len? I already know how you will react.

WE already know, Jimmy...you ain't got the GUTS to do so.


You haven't got the GUTS to explain, do you?

It's not about guts, Len.

Sigh...let me rephrase: You haven't got the COURAGE.

"Guts" is too visceral for sissy-prissies.


All it means is that you aren't a participant. You're all talk and no
action. All hat and no cattle. All theory and no practice.

And here you were, rushing home from "work in transportation"
to answer without much "civility" and with lots of semantic
juggling to attempt defending your previous statements. :-)

I don't HEAR you on the radio! :-)


Tsk. You will quibble semantics forever just to appear
YOU are "right." :-)

No. Because I *am* right.

You "*are* superior" because you are a morseman. :-)

Morsemen are "always right" in your view, aren't they?


Selling something does not make one "right".

YOU are always "selling a bill of goods." :-)

We see your "hat" but we can't hear any hoofbeats of
all that "cattle." :-)

Is your Hide Raw?


Quick, Jimmy...go to Chicago so you can appear as a
guest replacement for Roger Ebert on "Ebert and Roeper!"
There's still a chance for you to get famous. If you
are clever, you can slip in some biased PR for morse
code and reach MILLIONS in the audience! :-)

[that would be one helluva lot better than what the
ARRL has done so far...]

Poor baby...got TWO "thumbs down," did you?


Sweetums, you MANUFACTURE "errors" (that aren't really
errors per se, only some semantic quibbles and bits
that only satisfy your image hunger). Bone apetite,
doggy boy.

Your errors are of all kinds, Len. You make them, not me.

No, sweetums, YOU MAKE THEM UP...then say "I" made them.


For an alleged professional writer you sure don't proofread or check
facts very well.

You want what you paid me for professional work in here
refunded? Okay, attached to this message is a refund. :-)


However, your intolerance of disagreement with your opinions is
demonstrated in practically everything you post here.

Call the ACLU, call the Attorney General, call for
Philip and call for Morris. Poor baby, wanna act
smug and arrogant and superior and hope to get LIKED?!?

Only by some masochist, sweetums. :-)


I'm a judge of what's true and what isn't, Len.

You are a morseman and you're okay... :-)

You are naturally superior in all aspects. Except
your aspect is in a sling.


It's your uncivil and childish behavior that's intolerant, Len.

Oh, you expect ALL your "inferiors" to be masochists?

Tsk, tsk, the FCC has NO age limit on amateur radio.
Now YOU don't like childish behavior? Too bad, the
FCC would allow a 2-year-old to hold a ham license. :-)


Where did I make fun of anyone's military service, Len? Show us.

Drop this "show us" ploy, Jimmy Noserve. That's an OLD
trick, trying to make the challenged go through all those
(if available) archives, cut-and-paste, only to have you
rationalize YOU are "right" because you're a morseman, etc.
:-)

That "show us" response of actually showing where and when
you did it is negative ROI. As I said, you, when
confronted, will DENY it, rationalize some "reasons" that
you are "right" and then ignore it. :-)

Besides, OLD POSTS are in the past...they've already been
argued over. You are NOT going to "win" any such OLD
argument by repetition of the SAME posts from archives!
But...you keep on trying and trying and trying. You got
very trying a long time ago.


What someone else posts here is their business, Len.

Ah! The no-guts rationalization hard at work! :-)

So..."someone else" isn't bothered with, but you DO
try to bring me down every chance you get! :-)

What do you FEAR from me, Jimmy? C'mon, you can level
with the group...

You don't like your image from the other side of your
screen described for others? Tsk...and a Mother Superior
at that!


Now do try and behave a bit more civilly.

Is that an ORDER, Mother? Or just something FROM the Order?

["Give a nun an inch and she thinks she's a ruler!]

Now be good and change your Habit.

Say goodnight...grazie.

Slap, slap,

wrote:

Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country?

Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES.

You're just plain wrong about that, Len.

United States amateur radio could disappear at midnight and
the regular and emergency communications of the USA would
keep on functioning. Police would respond to radio calls,
fire engines would roll, ambulances would be dispatched,
Local governments would continue without pause, already
having lots and lots of radio equipment and operators.
Air traffic would continue, maritime traffic would continue,
trains would still be training, highways would continue to
function (and be repaired/renovated) as needed, all without
ham radio. Cellular telephony would continue (1 in 3
Americans having one), the Internet would continue, landline
telephony would continue. Mass Media (Broadcasting) would
continue unabated. The Forest Service would continue
spotting fires, reporting any via their own radios. River
and Inland Waterways would still have their VHF FM voice
communications. GPSS would continue functioning. NOAA
would still continue with weather information. Emergencies
at sea would still be handled by GMDSS. Emergencies in the
air would still be handled by VHF (over land) and HF voice
(over ocean). Emergencies on land would be handled by a
variety of Public Safety Radio Service facilities, all tied
together in large networks that operate nicely.

That's all true. But it does not mean that Amateur Radio does not
perform any service to the country.

All in the preceding paragraph are INDEPENDENT of amateur
radio, Jimmy. They ARE a definite SERVICE to the USA and
the people within it. Public safety 24/7.

Yet there are times when those communications services are inadequate
for the situation, and Amateur Radio meets the need. That's when
Amateur Radio performs a service to the country.

It can be as simple as using Amateur Radio communication to report a
broken-down vehicle in a spot where cell phones don't work.

Another example was when the space shuttle disintegrated on reentry a
few years ago. There was an extensive search effort to find pieces of
the wreckage - which were spread over a wide area.

Some of the communications for the search efforts were conducted by
Amateur Radio, because other facilities were unavailable or did not
meet the needs of the searchers.

That's service to the country.

There are many more examples, from hurricane Katrina to providing
communications for a parade or similar event.

Your claim that Amateur Radio does not perform any service to the
country is simply not true, Len. It's an error on *your* part - I
didn't make it up.

Read the report on Hurricane Katrina that details what worked and what
didn't. Amateur Radio provided an important service to the country -
according to the authors of the report.

wrote:
wrote:

Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country?

Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES.

You're just plain wrong about that, Len.

I disagree with Len on this point. Amateur Radio can be a service to
the country.

United States amateur radio could disappear at midnight and
the regular and emergency communications of the USA would
keep on functioning. Police would respond to radio calls,
fire engines would roll, ambulances would be dispatched,
Local governments would continue without pause, already
having lots and lots of radio equipment and operators.
Air traffic would continue, maritime traffic would continue,
trains would still be training, highways would continue to
function (and be repaired/renovated) as needed, all without
ham radio. Cellular telephony would continue (1 in 3
Americans having one), the Internet would continue, landline
telephony would continue. Mass Media (Broadcasting) would
continue unabated. The Forest Service would continue
spotting fires, reporting any via their own radios. River
and Inland Waterways would still have their VHF FM voice
communications. GPSS would continue functioning. NOAA
would still continue with weather information. Emergencies
at sea would still be handled by GMDSS. Emergencies in the
air would still be handled by VHF (over land) and HF voice
(over ocean). Emergencies on land would be handled by a
variety of Public Safety Radio Service facilities, all tied
together in large networks that operate nicely.

That's all true. But it does not mean that Amateur Radio does not
perform any service to the country.

The problem is the amateurs that ramp up the actual service to the
country into a superman complex.

All in the preceding paragraph are INDEPENDENT of amateur
radio, Jimmy. They ARE a definite SERVICE to the USA and
the people within it. Public safety 24/7.

Yet there are times when those communications services are inadequate
for the situation, and Amateur Radio meets the need. That's when
Amateur Radio performs a service to the country.

It can be as simple as using Amateur Radio communication to report a
broken-down vehicle in a spot where cell phones don't work.

No, you can't include this. I was laughed at when I suggested that
cellular telephones handle minor emergencies on a day in and day out
basis.

So if these emergencies aren't really emergencies, then when a no-coder
with a VHF radio steps in where the cell network doesn't cover, the
"emergency" still isn't an emergency.

Another example was when the space shuttle disintegrated on reentry a
few years ago. There was an extensive search effort to find pieces of
the wreckage - which were spread over a wide area.

What was the emergency?

The crew were beyond saving. The property was beyond saving.

Some of the communications for the search efforts were conducted by
Amateur Radio, because other facilities were unavailable or did not
meet the needs of the searchers.

So?

That's service to the country.

Not by the definition of saving life or property?

There are many more examples, from hurricane Katrina to providing
communications for a parade or similar event.

OK, you're finally getting to an emergency.

Your claim that Amateur Radio does not perform any service to the
country is simply not true, Len. It's an error on *your* part - I
didn't make it up.

Just don't overinflate our actual involvement.

Read the report on Hurricane Katrina that details what worked and what
didn't. Amateur Radio provided an important service to the country -
according to the authors of the report.

Fair enough.

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country?

Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES.

You're just plain wrong about that, Len.

I disagree with Len on this point. Amateur Radio can be a service to
the country.

I say Amateur Radio does perform service to the country. Not just
"can", but "does".

Even if all Amateur Radio does is provide a back-up communications
system, that's a service.

United States amateur radio could disappear at midnight and
the regular and emergency communications of the USA would
keep on functioning. Police would respond to radio calls,
fire engines would roll, ambulances would be dispatched,
Local governments would continue without pause, already
having lots and lots of radio equipment and operators.
Air traffic would continue, maritime traffic would continue,
trains would still be training, highways would continue to
function (and be repaired/renovated) as needed, all without
ham radio. Cellular telephony would continue (1 in 3
Americans having one), the Internet would continue, landline
telephony would continue. Mass Media (Broadcasting) would
continue unabated. The Forest Service would continue
spotting fires, reporting any via their own radios. River
and Inland Waterways would still have their VHF FM voice
communications. GPSS would continue functioning. NOAA
would still continue with weather information. Emergencies
at sea would still be handled by GMDSS. Emergencies in the
air would still be handled by VHF (over land) and HF voice
(over ocean). Emergencies on land would be handled by a
variety of Public Safety Radio Service facilities, all tied
together in large networks that operate nicely.

That's all true. But it does not mean that Amateur Radio does not
perform any service to the country.

The problem is the amateurs that ramp up the actual service to the
country into a superman complex.

*Some* amateurs certainly overstate things about amateur radio.

However, to say that Amateur Radio performs no service to the country
is incorrect.

All in the preceding paragraph are INDEPENDENT of amateur
radio, Jimmy. They ARE a definite SERVICE to the USA and
the people within it. Public safety 24/7.

Yet there are times when those communications services are inadequate
for the situation, and Amateur Radio meets the need. That's when
Amateur Radio performs a service to the country.

It can be as simple as using Amateur Radio communication to report a
broken-down vehicle in a spot where cell phones don't work.

No, you can't include this. I was laughed at when I suggested that
cellular telephones handle minor emergencies on a day in and day out
basis.

When was that?

Cell phones are certainly useful for "minor emergencies". I've made a
few 911 calls from mine.

Where cell phones have a problem is when too many people in the same
area try to use them simultaneously, exceeding the system capacity.

So if these emergencies aren't really emergencies, then when a no-coder
with a VHF radio steps in where the cell network doesn't cover, the
"emergency" still isn't an emergency.

Another example was when the space shuttle disintegrated on reentry a
few years ago. There was an extensive search effort to find pieces of
the wreckage - which were spread over a wide area.

What was the emergency?

Public service isn't just about emergencies. Emergency communications
is just one part of how Amateur Radio provides service to the country.

The crew were beyond saving. The property was beyond saving.

Finding as much wreckage as possible could help prevent another shuttle
disaster.

Some of the communications for the search efforts were conducted by
Amateur Radio, because other facilities were unavailable or did not
meet the needs of the searchers.

So?

So providing communications to the searchers was a service to the
country - even though it wasn't an emergency.

That's service to the country.

Not by the definition of saving life or property?

Service is about more than emergencies. The radio services listed by
Len include some which are not primarily about emergencies.

Here's a first-person account of a radio amateur who helped with the
Columbia wreckage search:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...9?dmode=source

There are many more examples, from hurricane Katrina to providing
communications for a parade or similar event.

OK, you're finally getting to an emergency.

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Your claim that Amateur Radio does not perform any service to the
country is simply not true, Len. It's an error on *your* part - I
didn't make it up.

Just don't overinflate our actual involvement.

Of course.

Read the report on Hurricane Katrina that details what worked and what
didn't. Amateur Radio provided an important service to the country -
according to the authors of the report.

Fair enough.

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country?

Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES.

You're just plain wrong about that, Len.

I disagree with Len on this point. Amateur Radio can be a service to
the country.

I say Amateur Radio does perform service to the country. Not just
"can", but "does".

Every amateur transmission is a service to the country?

Even if all Amateur Radio does is provide a back-up communications
system, that's a service.

A back-up provides exactly the same kind of service as the service that
is being backed up.

Does amateur radio provide that?

United States amateur radio could disappear at midnight and
the regular and emergency communications of the USA would
keep on functioning. Police would respond to radio calls,
fire engines would roll, ambulances would be dispatched,
Local governments would continue without pause, already
having lots and lots of radio equipment and operators.
Air traffic would continue, maritime traffic would continue,
trains would still be training, highways would continue to
function (and be repaired/renovated) as needed, all without
ham radio. Cellular telephony would continue (1 in 3
Americans having one), the Internet would continue, landline
telephony would continue. Mass Media (Broadcasting) would
continue unabated. The Forest Service would continue
spotting fires, reporting any via their own radios. River
and Inland Waterways would still have their VHF FM voice
communications. GPSS would continue functioning. NOAA
would still continue with weather information. Emergencies
at sea would still be handled by GMDSS. Emergencies in the
air would still be handled by VHF (over land) and HF voice
(over ocean). Emergencies on land would be handled by a
variety of Public Safety Radio Service facilities, all tied
together in large networks that operate nicely.

That's all true. But it does not mean that Amateur Radio does not
perform any service to the country.

The problem is the amateurs that ramp up the actual service to the
country into a superman complex.

*Some* amateurs certainly overstate things about amateur radio.

Thus my posting last month quoting an ARRL VP.

However, to say that Amateur Radio performs no service to the country
is incorrect.

Agreed.

All in the preceding paragraph are INDEPENDENT of amateur
radio, Jimmy. They ARE a definite SERVICE to the USA and
the people within it. Public safety 24/7.

Yet there are times when those communications services are inadequate
for the situation, and Amateur Radio meets the need. That's when
Amateur Radio performs a service to the country.

It can be as simple as using Amateur Radio communication to report a
broken-down vehicle in a spot where cell phones don't work.

No, you can't include this. I was laughed at when I suggested that
cellular telephones handle minor emergencies on a day in and day out
basis.

When was that?

Why would you care? You ignore Robesin's all caps, accusatory thread
jacking when it happens.

Cell phones are certainly useful for "minor emergencies". I've made a
few 911 calls from mine.

Where cell phones have a problem is when too many people in the same
area try to use them simultaneously, exceeding the system capacity.

Yet some calls still are still getting through. Some calls are
performing emergency comms. No?

So if these emergencies aren't really emergencies, then when a no-coder
with a VHF radio steps in where the cell network doesn't cover, the
"emergency" still isn't an emergency.

Another example was when the space shuttle disintegrated on reentry a
few years ago. There was an extensive search effort to find pieces of
the wreckage - which were spread over a wide area.

What was the emergency?

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Fair enough.

Emergency communications
is just one part of how Amateur Radio provides service to the country.

It can be.

The crew were beyond saving. The property was beyond saving.

Finding as much wreckage as possible could help prevent another shuttle
disaster.

How many years were the shuttles grounded? Lots of time to collect the
wreckage.

Some of the communications for the search efforts were conducted by
Amateur Radio, because other facilities were unavailable or did not
meet the needs of the searchers.

So?

So providing communications to the searchers was a service to the
country - even though it wasn't an emergency.

Fair enough.

That's service to the country.

Not by the definition of saving life or property?

Service is about more than emergencies. The radio services listed by
Len include some which are not primarily about emergencies.

Here's a first-person account of a radio amateur who helped with the
Columbia wreckage search:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...9?dmode=source

There are many more examples, from hurricane Katrina to providing
communications for a parade or similar event.

OK, you're finally getting to an emergency.

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Not all communications surrounding Katrina were emcomms.

Your claim that Amateur Radio does not perform any service to the
country is simply not true, Len. It's an error on *your* part - I
didn't make it up.

Just don't overinflate our actual involvement.

Of course.

Read the report on Hurricane Katrina that details what worked and what
didn't. Amateur Radio provided an important service to the country -
according to the authors of the report.

Fair enough.

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country?

Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES.

You're just plain wrong about that, Len.

I disagree with Len on this point. Amateur Radio can be a service to
the country.

I say Amateur Radio does perform service to the country. Not just
"can", but "does".

Every amateur transmission is a service to the country?

Of course not.

Even if all Amateur Radio does is provide a back-up communications
system, that's a service.

A back-up provides exactly the same kind of service as the service that
is being backed up.

Not necessarily. A backup provides a service that can replace the
service that is being backed up, but may not be exactly the same. For
example, when the electrical utility service fails, many people will
depend on candles, lanterns and flashlights for lighting. Those things
aren't exactly the same as what is backed up but they do the job. Of
course a whole-house backup generator is preferable and will deliver
backup electricity that is almost the same as the utility.

For an Amateur Radio example, two Red Cross facilities may usually
communicate supply lists by email. If their email fails, Amateur Radio
could step in with WinLink and provide a very similar service. But if
WinLink is not available, the lists could be sent by radio amateurs
using PSK31, voice or, yes, even Morse Code. All depends on what's
available at the time. Getting a list that was sent by voice and is
hand-written might not be exactly the same as getting it by email, but
it will do until the email is working again.

Does amateur radio provide that?

Sometimes (WinLink vs. email) but not usually. But a backup that is
exactly the same as the backed-up service is not essential. In fact, if
the backup is exactly the same, what you have is redundancy.

United States amateur radio could disappear at midnight and
the regular and emergency communications of the USA would
keep on functioning. Police would respond to radio calls,
fire engines would roll, ambulances would be dispatched,
Local governments would continue without pause, already
having lots and lots of radio equipment and operators.
Air traffic would continue, maritime traffic would continue,
trains would still be training, highways would continue to
function (and be repaired/renovated) as needed, all without
ham radio. Cellular telephony would continue (1 in 3
Americans having one), the Internet would continue, landline
telephony would continue. Mass Media (Broadcasting) would
continue unabated. The Forest Service would continue
spotting fires, reporting any via their own radios. River
and Inland Waterways would still have their VHF FM voice
communications. GPSS would continue functioning. NOAA
would still continue with weather information. Emergencies
at sea would still be handled by GMDSS. Emergencies in the
air would still be handled by VHF (over land) and HF voice
(over ocean). Emergencies on land would be handled by a
variety of Public Safety Radio Service facilities, all tied
together in large networks that operate nicely.

That's all true. But it does not mean that Amateur Radio does not
perform any service to the country.

The problem is the amateurs that ramp up the actual service to the
country into a superman complex.

*Some* amateurs certainly overstate things about amateur radio.

Thus my posting last month quoting an ARRL VP.

I missed that one. Did he overstate?

However, to say that Amateur Radio performs no service to the country
is incorrect.

Agreed.

All in the preceding paragraph are INDEPENDENT of amateur
radio, Jimmy. They ARE a definite SERVICE to the USA and
the people within it. Public safety 24/7.

Yet there are times when those communications services are inadequate
for the situation, and Amateur Radio meets the need. That's when
Amateur Radio performs a service to the country.

It can be as simple as using Amateur Radio communication to report a
broken-down vehicle in a spot where cell phones don't work.

No, you can't include this. I was laughed at when I suggested that
cellular telephones handle minor emergencies on a day in and day out
basis.

When was that?

Why would you care? You ignore Robesin's all caps, accusatory thread
jacking when it happens.

I don't read much of rrap. They're simply too much volume and too
little time. I stopped reading rrap completely for several months
because of all the noise, and reverted to just posting the ARS license
numbers for a while.

Which reminds me - time for the next post in that thread.

Cell phones are certainly useful for "minor emergencies". I've made a
few 911 calls from mine.

Where cell phones have a problem is when too many people in the same
area try to use them simultaneously, exceeding the system capacity.

Yet some calls still are still getting through. Some calls are
performing emergency comms. No?

Yes! The problem is that cell phone communications may not be available
when most needed.

Massive cell phone system failure can occur when power fails for an
extended time and the backup power runs out.

So if these emergencies aren't really emergencies, then when a no-coder
with a VHF radio steps in where the cell network doesn't cover, the
"emergency" still isn't an emergency.

Another example was when the space shuttle disintegrated on reentry a
few years ago. There was an extensive search effort to find pieces of
the wreckage - which were spread over a wide area.

What was the emergency?

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Fair enough.

Emergency communications
is just one part of how Amateur Radio provides service to the country.

It can be.

When it happens.

The crew were beyond saving. The property was beyond saving.

Finding as much wreckage as possible could help prevent another shuttle
disaster.

How many years were the shuttles grounded? Lots of time to collect the
wreckage.

But the longer the wreckage was out in the weather, the less
information could be had from it, and the harder it would be to find.
Plus the sooner any information could be gathered, the sooner it could
be acted upon.

Some of the communications for the search efforts were conducted by
Amateur Radio, because other facilities were unavailable or did not
meet the needs of the searchers.

So?

So providing communications to the searchers was a service to the
country - even though it wasn't an emergency.

Fair enough.

That's service to the country.

Not by the definition of saving life or property?

Service is about more than emergencies. The radio services listed by
Len include some which are not primarily about emergencies.

Here's a first-person account of a radio amateur who helped with the
Columbia wreckage search:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...9?dmode=source

There are many more examples, from hurricane Katrina to providing
communications for a parade or similar event.

OK, you're finally getting to an emergency.

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Not all communications surrounding Katrina were emcomms.

Of course.

Your claim that Amateur Radio does not perform any service to the
country is simply not true, Len. It's an error on *your* part - I
didn't make it up.

Just don't overinflate our actual involvement.

Of course.

Read the report on Hurricane Katrina that details what worked and what
didn't. Amateur Radio provided an important service to the country -
according to the authors of the report.

Fair enough.

"Service to the country" is one reason for the continued existence of
the Amateur Radio Service.

---

Now a question:

- Does the fact that Amateur Radio "provides service to the country"
mean that the ARS is more than "just a hobby"?

From: on Sat, Sep 16 2006 4:03 am

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country?

Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES.

You're just plain wrong about that, Len.

I disagree with Len on this point. Amateur Radio can be a service to
the country.

I say Amateur Radio does perform service to the country. Not just
"can", but "does".

Every amateur transmission is a service to the country?

Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh....

Seems like I shook the nitroglycerine bottle that is the mighty
macho morseman's ego with that entrapment. :-) KABLOOIE!!!

---

Poor Jimmy, all flustered, thought he'd "gotten to me." Poor baby,
he doesn't check the Federal Register often enough.

On 7 July 2006 the Federal Register made available FR Doc 06-6013
[ET Docket 06-119; FCC 06-831 on the FCC website]. That was a
52 page report by the 27 member panel (1 chair, 26 members), written
single-spaced, narrow margins, members all identified by their
affiliations on pp 51-52. That was several weeks ago.

In FR Doc 06-6013 there is ONE short paragraph about "amateur
radio involvement" on page 29 (upper half of page). There is a
single statement on page 45 about "waiver of regulations" for
amateur radio AND other communications services. That's it.

Had FR Doc 06-6013 been formatted in conventional manuscript
style (double-spaced, wide margins) it would have been a bit
larger than 150 pages in length. :-)

Mr. professional-in-some-kind-of-electronics thinks "I should"
read that report. :-) I already did, weeks ago, when it was
available to the public.

What professional-in-some-kind-of-electronics Jimmy FAILED to
mention is thousands and thousands of pages of OTHER text in
both popular press and professional trade magazines on the
tremendous task of getting New Orleans somewhat functional
after a major disaster where the state, city of New Orleans
was INADEQUATELY PREPARED AT ALL LEVELS (including amateurs)
to provide ANY adequate service for its citizens. The
surviving services did as best they could with work-arounds,
hampered by the city of New Orleans being built below sea
level with INADEQUATE protection against dike breaching (which
did happen, causing major, major flooding).

Even if all Amateur Radio does is provide a back-up communications
system, that's a service.

A back-up provides exactly the same kind of service as the service that
is being backed up.

Does amateur radio provide that?

Seldom. By law it CANNOT provide the SAME service as
broadcasting, multiplexed-circuit communications as in the
telephone infrastructure, and NOT in the high speed of
data transfer NOW COMMON to MOST communications services
on the OUTSIDE of amateur radio.

Yes, amateur radio does provide "health and welfare" message
relay and some 'phone patches' to the public...provided those
amateur radio services are ABLE TO SURVIVE a major
environmental disaster. The ARRL failed to "report" on all
the amateur radio facilities that did NOT SURVIVE Katrina
(wouldn't be good for their wish-fulfillment of members to
report that).

Yes, amateur radio DID provide SOME communications AFTER
Katrina had hit. "Health and welfare" messages and some
scattered 'phone patching on the OUTSKIRTS of New Orleans.
NONE of that amateur radio communications effort happened
DURING the height of a REAL emergency situation and the
start of the flooding immediately afterwards. [refer to
the stock video shots such as dozens of bright yellow
school busses sitting in a flooded bus park, empty, up
to their hubcaps in water...busses that could have been
driven by most drivers to help evacuate flood victims,
but were NOT, just ignored by almost everyone there]

"Health and welfare" messaging is emotional sustenance to
family and friends of disaster victims. But, let's face it,
it is NOT ESSENTIAL to saving lives of the victims, does
NOT help repair damange, does NOT evacuate any victims,
does NOT do any lasting service to victims other than to
provide copy for ARRL news pages.

Did Mr. Professional-in-some-kind-of-electronics provide HIS
personal "service to the country" during or after Katrina?
He never said boo about it. He HAS jabbered about his
"service in 'other' ways" (to the nation) but has NEVER
explained those "other ways" in any sort of detail.

Hurricane Katrina was a severe disaster, unprecedented
in recent times (including time hurricanes had routinely
hit Florida). The 'preparations for emergencies' in the
New Orleans area were later revealed to be miniscule (if
not abyssmal and poorly planned. That apparently
INCLUDED amateur radio 'preparations;' the ARRL is
strangely silent on that aspect.

Normally, the REAL emergency services and radio services
OTHER than amateur radio are available 24/7 all over the
nation. Here is what I wrote previously on those:

United States amateur radio could disappear at midnight and
the regular and emergency communications of the USA would
keep on functioning. Police would respond to radio calls,
fire engines would roll, ambulances would be dispatched,
Local governments would continue without pause, already
having lots and lots of radio equipment and operators.
Air traffic would continue, maritime traffic would continue,
trains would still be training, highways would continue to
function (and be repaired/renovated) as needed, all without
ham radio. Cellular telephony would continue (1 in 3
Americans having one), the Internet would continue, landline
telephony would continue. Mass Media (Broadcasting) would
continue unabated. The Forest Service would continue
spotting fires, reporting any via their own radios. River
and Inland Waterways would still have their VHF FM voice
communications. GPSS would continue functioning. NOAA
would still continue with weather information. Emergencies
at sea would still be handled by GMDSS. Emergencies in the
air would still be handled by VHF (over land) and HF voice
(over ocean). Emergencies on land would be handled by a
variety of Public Safety Radio Service facilities, all tied
together in large networks that operate nicely.

My wife and I were in the upper midwest when Katrina hit the Gulf
states' coastline last year. Outside of Katrina being the major
focus of the news, NOTHING affected our stay there. The remaining
weather disturbance reaching the upper midwest DID cause us to
change plans on the return trip. My wife handled all the
reservation changes via cell phone from inside the car while I
was driving through Iowa and on into Nevada. Excellent service
on that. No roadway or motel or restaurant services were
affected. On the 2000 mile return trip we saw only two incidents
of accidents of others, both attended to by existing
infrastructure public safety and towing services.


That's all true. But it does not mean that Amateur Radio does not
perform any service to the country.

The problem is the amateurs that ramp up the actual service to the
country into a superman complex.

*Some* amateurs certainly overstate things about amateur radio.

Thus my posting last month quoting an ARRL VP.

Brian, that is anathema to the morseodist supermen of the ARRL
persuasion. A "no-no" in common speech. The ARRL is always
right, can never be wrong...


However, to say that Amateur Radio performs no service to the country
is incorrect.

Agreed.

In ANY emergency, ANY communications service facility is useful.
One uses whatever is there at the time. The FCC recognizes this
in Part 1 of Title 47 C.F.R. in regards to ALL radio services'
operations in the event of a REAL emergency.



Yet there are times when those communications services are inadequate
for the situation, and Amateur Radio meets the need. That's when
Amateur Radio performs a service to the country.

[that is so RARE that it is almost laughable]

It can be as simple as using Amateur Radio communication to report a
broken-down vehicle in a spot where cell phones don't work.

[that has become a rarity...in the "Big Dig" tunnel complex
of Boston there are internal RF repeaters for that...but
any radio is useless there when the roof pieces fall...]

No, you can't include this. I was laughed at when I suggested that
cellular telephones handle minor emergencies on a day in and day out
basis.

When was that?

Why would you care? You ignore Robesin's all caps, accusatory thread
jacking when it happens.

Jimmy has tunnel vision. He would be at home in Boston in the
tunnel complex...if it weren't so "violent." :-)

Oops! Jimmy allow no violence! I forgot. He would interpret
falling concrete roof slabs as "MY (violent) ERROR!" :-)


Cell phones are certainly useful for "minor emergencies". I've made a
few 911 calls from mine.

Where cell phones have a problem is when too many people in the same
area try to use them simultaneously, exceeding the system capacity.

Yet some calls still are still getting through. Some calls are
performing emergency comms. No?

Not in Jimmyworld. In emergencies ALL infrastructure comms
FAIL and ONLY amateur radio can save the day. Sigh...

Amateurs and amateur radio equipment SURVIVES the harshest
environments and is ready-and-able to SERVE 24/7 !

[gag, guffaw! :-) ]



Another example was when the space shuttle disintegrated on reentry a
few years ago. There was an extensive search effort to find pieces of
the wreckage - which were spread over a wide area.

What was the emergency?

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Fair enough.

Emergency communications
is just one part of how Amateur Radio provides service to the country.

It can be.

The "service" aspect is largely confined to refills of the
pipe that some smoke while dreaming in front of their radios.

Apparently some feel guilt about enjoying a hobby - or just
inadequate - and try to pretend they are much more important
than just hobbyists. Some pretend to be professionals in an
amateur activity.


The crew were beyond saving. The property was beyond saving.

Finding as much wreckage as possible could help prevent another shuttle
disaster.

How many years were the shuttles grounded? Lots of time to collect the
wreckage.

Mr. Professional-in-SOME-kind-of-work seems to have overlooked
both the NASA statements immediately after the fact, the many,
many pages of news and information about the shuttle disaster,
the probable cause of disintegration (number one suspect on day
one of the tragedy...by the pros involved). The "footprint" of
the breakup was spread over three states in a known path. The
bodies of all astronauts on board were recovered as well as
over 80 percent of the spaceframe. Pictures of the wreckage
laid out in order in a hangar in Florida were printed in
Aviation Week & Space Technology. The vast majority of the
wreckage pieces were found by ordinary citizens, ones who
have not been granted amateur radio licenses.


Some of the communications for the search efforts were conducted by
Amateur Radio, because other facilities were unavailable or did not
meet the needs of the searchers.

So?

So providing communications to the searchers was a service to the
country - even though it wasn't an emergency.

Fair enough.

The ACTUAL communications services were done by existing infra-
structure agencies...everyone from local PDs to the Forest
Service that could be spared from regular work. CITIZENS,
most of whom had NO radio licenses, helped the wreckage
recovery efforts on their own, no ham license required.


That's service to the country.

Not by the definition of saving life or property?

Service is about more than emergencies. The radio services listed by
Len include some which are not primarily about emergencies.

[Torquemada Jim did NOT identify which ones...he only wanted
to light a burning at the stake...:-) ]


Here's a first-person account of a radio amateur who helped with the
Columbia wreckage search:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r.../msg/5be7f564c...

[...a "vital service to the nation"...disregarding those
who've actually worked on STS components such as the SSME]

[heh heh heh heh heh heh...]


There are many more examples, from hurricane Katrina to providing
communications for a parade or similar event.

OK, you're finally getting to an emergency.

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Not all communications surrounding Katrina were emcomms.

Tsk, the traditional New Year's Rose Parade uses non-amateur
comms to keep it organized and going, how about that? :-)


Your claim that Amateur Radio does not perform any service to the
country is simply not true, Len. It's an error on *your* part - I
didn't make it up.

Just don't overinflate our actual involvement.

Of course.

Here is what was originally written:

Torquemada Jim: "Are you saying that amateur radio does not
perform any service to the country?"

My reply: "Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES."

KABLOOIE! Jimmy HAD to explode in a torrent of "errors."
Gotta love it...push just one button and he detonates.
:-) [...this is more fun than a barrel of morseodists]

Read the report on Hurricane Katrina that details what worked and what
didn't. Amateur Radio provided an important service to the country -
according to the authors of the report.

Fair enough.

FIFTY TWO PAGES WORTH, released 7 Jul 06, got it fresh from the
GPO website when it was released. Interesting but wordy.

Re-skim-reading it, I did NOT see the "importance to the
country" in such glowing, endearing, patriotic terms. That's
probably due to being just an ordinary citizen, having served
my country in the military during a time of war, working as
a professional in radio-electronics...not in the "transport
industry" or busy, busy with manual telegraphy. :-)

US amateur radio is an interesting avocational aspect of the
entire radio world. It can be fun to most of the hobbyists.
But, a few, like Mr. Professional-in-some-kind-of-whatever,
wrap themselves in too much patriotic bunting...they can't
see through that or the many flags they wave about them-
selves. Pity that, only saplings pretending to be mature
trees, unable to see the forest.

[watch the outrageous vituperation flow in now... :-) ]

Beep, beep,

US amateur radio is an interesting avocational aspect of the
entire radio world. It can be fun to most of the hobbyists.
But, a few, like Mr. Professional-in-some-kind-of-whatever,
wrap themselves in too much patriotic bunting...they can't
see through that or the many flags they wave about them-
selves. Pity that, only saplings pretending to be mature
trees, unable to see the forest.

[watch the outrageous vituperation flow in now... :-) ]

Beep, beep,





YAWN

Jonathan wrote:
US amateur radio is an interesting avocational aspect of the
entire radio world. It can be fun to most of the hobbyists.
But, a few, like Mr. Professional-in-some-kind-of-whatever,
wrap themselves in too much patriotic bunting...they can't
see through that or the many flags they wave about them-
selves. Pity that, only saplings pretending to be mature
trees, unable to see the forest.

[watch the outrageous vituperation flow in now... :-) ]

Beep, beep,





YAWN

Since they have no military service, they must have a surrogate that
can be just as good.