In article ,
Dr. Artaud wrote:
It's one of the bigger clubs in the country, yet the interest in
construction and optics is nil. The facility is tremendous, and the
interest in improving it is significant, yet the work is always done by a
small group of dedicated individuals. Otherwise, open the box, unwrap,
install batteries, enter the number, look.

So? How good is the attendance at your local Robotics contests?

Mark Zenier Washington State resident

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:58:45 -0500, "Jack Painter"
wrote:


"Tebojockey" wrote

/snip
somewhat outmoded means of communication. Even for seafarers, GMDSS
is taking over and code is used less and less.
/snip

Somewhat outmoded? Used less and less? Here's an update:

Even at sea, where code died a slow death as far back as the 1960's (some
hangers-on who liked it persisted through the 80's) there was no need for
any radio operator to have memorized more than two letters of code after
that point. Except for an outdated concept of licensing. That is also long
gone from the maritime world, with no radio officer aboard any longer. Why?
Simple economics. In concert with great advances in safety of life at sea,
the need for either code or the radioman who knew it faded away completely a
long time ago.

I agree with you that anyone who experiments or legitimately repairs or
modifies radio transmitting equipment should be licensed, and for the good
reasons you explained. But the fact is that neither aircraft nor marine
vessels in private or commercial or military use whose lives depend on
communication, have any such requirements for the operators. It is in fact
quite "plug-n-play" and this is the major reason the MF and HF bands are
still in use at all. When that equipment is no longer competitive with
modern satellite systems, we will see it disappear entirely from commercial
use. By that time new technologies will have other uses for the spectrum,
and its hard to imagine how far some of that will go. But it is no longer
relevant to continue to drag old habits (CW) along, unless you are forming
an "old habit we do for fun" club. If Amateur Radio allows itself to be
relegated to that category, as the legal team proposing new BPL rules argued
in open court last Fall (which they won by the way, in spite of heroic
efforts by the ARRL and others), it has nobody to thank but itself.

73,
Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia

Jack,

Thanks for your input, but I beg to differ with you. A general
radiotelephone operator's license IS required to perform *any* work on
comms equipment for aircraft or marine use. Further, GMDSS repairer
or operator is required for using or repairing that equipment, as is a
second or first-class radiotelegraph license for most large vessels.
Plug-n-play aside, these licenses are still required, and anyone not
havig one and working on such equipment is liable for big trouble if
found out. Military is a different matter, as they train and certify
their own, but commercial and private aircraft and marine must still
abide by the regs (that is, if they are US licensed or serviced in a
US facility).

Code is still very useful in an emergency if all other means fail.
Indeed, this is why code became a part of ham radio. When it was
being demonstrated to one federal regulator in the early days, the
modulator section of the demonstrator's equipment failed and he
switched to Morse. The federal official was so impressed, that it
became a part of licensing regulations. Like it or not, we hams many
times find ourselves in emergency situations where we have to relay or
report message. How do you propose to do that if you have no spares
and your modulator fails?

I don't use code, but I can in an emergency. This gives me a nice
comfort zone. Some people prefer to use it exclusively. But I
suspect that it will always be a part of the license requirement.
Surely if you possess the necessary skils for electronics, you can
master 5 WPM code which is now all that is required. It's a rite of
passage to join the club.

Let us not forget that the license is a *privilege* and not a right,
and can be revoked at whim by the FCC. It's something you have to
earn, and the powers that be apparently feel that code is necessary, I
suspect, for emergency purposes.

Regards,

Al

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"Tebojockey" wrote
"Jack Painter"
wrote:


"Tebojockey" wrote

/snip
somewhat outmoded means of communication. Even for seafarers, GMDSS
is taking over and code is used less and less.
/snip

Somewhat outmoded? Used less and less? Here's an update:

Even at sea, where code died a slow death as far back as the 1960's (some
hangers-on who liked it persisted through the 80's) there was no need for
any radio operator to have memorized more than two letters of code after
that point. Except for an outdated concept of licensing. That is also
long
gone from the maritime world, with no radio officer aboard any longer.
Why?
Simple economics. In concert with great advances in safety of life at
sea,
the need for either code or the radioman who knew it faded away
completely a
long time ago.

I agree with you that anyone who experiments or legitimately repairs or
modifies radio transmitting equipment should be licensed, and for the
good
reasons you explained. But the fact is that neither aircraft nor marine
vessels in private or commercial or military use whose lives depend on
communication, have any such requirements for the operators. It is in
fact
quite "plug-n-play" and this is the major reason the MF and HF bands are
still in use at all. When that equipment is no longer competitive with
modern satellite systems, we will see it disappear entirely from
commercial
use. By that time new technologies will have other uses for the
spectrum,
and its hard to imagine how far some of that will go. But it is no longer
relevant to continue to drag old habits (CW) along, unless you are
forming
an "old habit we do for fun" club. If Amateur Radio allows itself to be
relegated to that category, as the legal team proposing new BPL rules
argued
in open court last Fall (which they won by the way, in spite of heroic
efforts by the ARRL and others), it has nobody to thank but itself.

73,
Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia

Jack,

Thanks for your input, but I beg to differ with you. A general
radiotelephone operator's license IS required to perform *any* work on
comms equipment for aircraft or marine use. Further, GMDSS repairer
or operator is required for using or repairing that equipment, as is a
second or first-class radiotelegraph license for most large vessels.
Plug-n-play aside, these licenses are still required, and anyone not
havig one and working on such equipment is liable for big trouble if
found out. Military is a different matter, as they train and certify
their own, but commercial and private aircraft and marine must still
abide by the regs (that is, if they are US licensed or serviced in a
US facility).

Code is still very useful in an emergency if all other means fail.
Indeed, this is why code became a part of ham radio. When it was
being demonstrated to one federal regulator in the early days, the
modulator section of the demonstrator's equipment failed and he
switched to Morse. The federal official was so impressed, that it
became a part of licensing regulations. Like it or not, we hams many
times find ourselves in emergency situations where we have to relay or
report message. How do you propose to do that if you have no spares
and your modulator fails?

I don't use code, but I can in an emergency. This gives me a nice
comfort zone. Some people prefer to use it exclusively. But I
suspect that it will always be a part of the license requirement.
Surely if you possess the necessary skils for electronics, you can
master 5 WPM code which is now all that is required. It's a rite of
passage to join the club.

Let us not forget that the license is a *privilege* and not a right,
and can be revoked at whim by the FCC. It's something you have to
earn, and the powers that be apparently feel that code is necessary, I
suspect, for emergency purposes.

Regards,

Al

Hello Al,

We aren't talking about the licenses required to repair radio transmitters,
and I did agree with you in that respect. But those licenses are neither
required onboard ship or aircraft nor is there a radio officer aboard who
holds them. Except in the case of compulsory GMDSS where there has to be a
GMDSS operator OR repairer on board - but he does NOT have to be the one
operating the equipment.

There is no code required to OPERATE commercial marine or aircraft radio
transmitters, it is a station license not an individual license. For an
individual who privately owns a vessel or aircraft, his restricted radio
operators license is for life and applies to any mobile maritime station
that he operates from. No code.

Redundancy in all compulsory equipped vessels allows the necessary swapping
or replacement of the active transmitters for the job. There is no repair
capability aboard maritime mobile units. Vessels at sea were the last
living reason for any existence of Morse code, and it became history a LONG
time ago. That's it, it's the end of the era and should be relegated to the
museum. There is no compelling reason for any unit to know it or use it ever
again. Hams were required to know code for absolutely ridiculous reasons
that had nothing to do with your nice but untrue anecdotal story, mate.

The early federal regulators were all members of that "club" you refer to
(originally part of the Department of War), and they imposed that
requirement on the hobby to make it difficult for the public to access
"their" airwaves. Airwaves which incidentally belong to the public and are
NOT a PRIVILEGE granted by the government. The government only has limited
powers to regulate areas which so strongly affect the whole public, that
without licensing and oversight, could aversely affect the whole public's
right to enjoyment of those (highways, airwaves, etc) mediums.

I hate to burst the bubble of those who worked hard to learn code because
they think ham radios will someday save the day for emergency
communications, but not in the United States they won't. If any of you hams
have been following what happened to the SHARES network in the last few
years, you're almost out of the picture now. Every US Government agency now
participates in SHARES, and amateur members are only allowed to have their
net control make a single check-in. Except for SHARES, the nets that these
agencies work in never permit amateurs. Reliable telephone systems, reliable
cellular networks, reliable satellite systems, and finally, reliable HF-ALE
nets operated exclusively by the government provide most of the
communications capability that US emergency planners rely on. CW is not part
of any of that network training or planning, nor was it ever for the last
several decades. I'm sure you once worked hard to learn it, and some may
still enjoy it. Fine, but let go of the thought that it could ever again
play a useful role in emergency communications. It's an argument using old
logic that simply does not apply to our present environment.

Of course if all the lights really go out, you 20+ wpm hams will be able to
have your own secret-code that nobody else will understand ;-)

73,
Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia

"Tebojockey" wrote in message
...
Jack,

Thanks for your input, but I beg to differ with you. A general
radiotelephone operator's license IS required to perform *any* work on
comms equipment for aircraft or marine use.

He wasn't talking about a repair tech, he stated "operator.


When it was
being demonstrated to one federal regulator in the early days, the
modulator section of the demonstrator's equipment failed and he
switched to Morse. The federal official was so impressed, that it
became a part of licensing regulations.

That's a new one. Just make that up?

But I
suspect that it will always be a part of the license requirement.

No it won't, wait a few years.

It's a rite of
passage to join the club.

Now it comes out. Hazing. I thought people got over that in college.

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:03:23 -0800, "CW" wrote:


"Tebojockey" wrote in message
.. .
Jack,

Thanks for your input, but I beg to differ with you. A general
radiotelephone operator's license IS required to perform *any* work on
comms equipment for aircraft or marine use.

He wasn't talking about a repair tech, he stated "operator.

Operators may not evenchange "plug-and-play" equipment unless they
are throwing a switch from main to standby. Read the rules, Sir.



When it was
being demonstrated to one federal regulator in the early days, the
modulator section of the demonstrator's equipment failed and he
switched to Morse. The federal official was so impressed, that it
became a part of licensing regulations.

That's a new one. Just make that up?

No, try reading ARRL and ham history a bit, you'll find the scenario
and stories. My imagination isn't that good. Maybe yours is.

But I
suspect that it will always be a part of the license requirement.

No it won't, wait a few years.

It's a rite of
passage to join the club.

Now it comes out. Hazing. I thought people got over that in college.

We did, but our club, our rules. You want the license, you pass all
the tests. Don't like it? CB is still there, but for how long, no
one knows.

Drive through, please.

Al




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On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:28:38 -0500, "Jack Painter"
wrote:


"Tebojockey" wrote
"Jack Painter"
wrote:


"Tebojockey" wrote

/snip
somewhat outmoded means of communication. Even for seafarers, GMDSS
is taking over and code is used less and less.
/snip

Somewhat outmoded? Used less and less? Here's an update:

Even at sea, where code died a slow death as far back as the 1960's (some
hangers-on who liked it persisted through the 80's) there was no need for
any radio operator to have memorized more than two letters of code after
that point. Except for an outdated concept of licensing. That is also
long
gone from the maritime world, with no radio officer aboard any longer.
Why?
Simple economics. In concert with great advances in safety of life at
sea,
the need for either code or the radioman who knew it faded away
completely a
long time ago.

I agree with you that anyone who experiments or legitimately repairs or
modifies radio transmitting equipment should be licensed, and for the
good
reasons you explained. But the fact is that neither aircraft nor marine
vessels in private or commercial or military use whose lives depend on
communication, have any such requirements for the operators. It is in
fact
quite "plug-n-play" and this is the major reason the MF and HF bands are
still in use at all. When that equipment is no longer competitive with
modern satellite systems, we will see it disappear entirely from
commercial
use. By that time new technologies will have other uses for the
spectrum,
and its hard to imagine how far some of that will go. But it is no longer
relevant to continue to drag old habits (CW) along, unless you are
forming
an "old habit we do for fun" club. If Amateur Radio allows itself to be
relegated to that category, as the legal team proposing new BPL rules
argued
in open court last Fall (which they won by the way, in spite of heroic
efforts by the ARRL and others), it has nobody to thank but itself.

73,
Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia

Jack,

Thanks for your input, but I beg to differ with you. A general
radiotelephone operator's license IS required to perform *any* work on
comms equipment for aircraft or marine use. Further, GMDSS repairer
or operator is required for using or repairing that equipment, as is a
second or first-class radiotelegraph license for most large vessels.
Plug-n-play aside, these licenses are still required, and anyone not
havig one and working on such equipment is liable for big trouble if
found out. Military is a different matter, as they train and certify
their own, but commercial and private aircraft and marine must still
abide by the regs (that is, if they are US licensed or serviced in a
US facility).

Code is still very useful in an emergency if all other means fail.
Indeed, this is why code became a part of ham radio. When it was
being demonstrated to one federal regulator in the early days, the
modulator section of the demonstrator's equipment failed and he
switched to Morse. The federal official was so impressed, that it
became a part of licensing regulations. Like it or not, we hams many
times find ourselves in emergency situations where we have to relay or
report message. How do you propose to do that if you have no spares
and your modulator fails?

I don't use code, but I can in an emergency. This gives me a nice
comfort zone. Some people prefer to use it exclusively. But I
suspect that it will always be a part of the license requirement.
Surely if you possess the necessary skils for electronics, you can
master 5 WPM code which is now all that is required. It's a rite of
passage to join the club.

Let us not forget that the license is a *privilege* and not a right,
and can be revoked at whim by the FCC. It's something you have to
earn, and the powers that be apparently feel that code is necessary, I
suspect, for emergency purposes.

Regards,

Al

Hello Al,

We aren't talking about the licenses required to repair radio transmitters,
and I did agree with you in that respect. But those licenses are neither
required onboard ship or aircraft nor is there a radio officer aboard who
holds them. Except in the case of compulsory GMDSS where there has to be a
GMDSS operator OR repairer on board - but he does NOT have to be the one
operating the equipment.

There is no code required to OPERATE commercial marine or aircraft radio
transmitters, it is a station license not an individual license. For an
individual who privately owns a vessel or aircraft, his restricted radio
operators license is for life and applies to any mobile maritime station
that he operates from. No code.

Redundancy in all compulsory equipped vessels allows the necessary swapping
or replacement of the active transmitters for the job. There is no repair
capability aboard maritime mobile units. Vessels at sea were the last
living reason for any existence of Morse code, and it became history a LONG
time ago. That's it, it's the end of the era and should be relegated to the
museum. There is no compelling reason for any unit to know it or use it ever
again. Hams were required to know code for absolutely ridiculous reasons
that had nothing to do with your nice but untrue anecdotal story, mate.

The early federal regulators were all members of that "club" you refer to
(originally part of the Department of War), and they imposed that
requirement on the hobby to make it difficult for the public to access
"their" airwaves. Airwaves which incidentally belong to the public and are
NOT a PRIVILEGE granted by the government. The government only has limited
powers to regulate areas which so strongly affect the whole public, that
without licensing and oversight, could aversely affect the whole public's
right to enjoyment of those (highways, airwaves, etc) mediums.

I hate to burst the bubble of those who worked hard to learn code because
they think ham radios will someday save the day for emergency
communications, but not in the United States they won't. If any of you hams
have been following what happened to the SHARES network in the last few
years, you're almost out of the picture now. Every US Government agency now
participates in SHARES, and amateur members are only allowed to have their
net control make a single check-in. Except for SHARES, the nets that these
agencies work in never permit amateurs. Reliable telephone systems, reliable
cellular networks, reliable satellite systems, and finally, reliable HF-ALE
nets operated exclusively by the government provide most of the
communications capability that US emergency planners rely on. CW is not part
of any of that network training or planning, nor was it ever for the last
several decades. I'm sure you once worked hard to learn it, and some may
still enjoy it. Fine, but let go of the thought that it could ever again
play a useful role in emergency communications. It's an argument using old
logic that simply does not apply to our present environment.

Of course if all the lights really go out, you 20+ wpm hams will be able to
have your own secret-code that nobody else will understand ;-)

73,
Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia


Hey Jack,

I agree with you, but an operator may not even swap "plug-and-play"
modules, unless s/he is just flipping a switch. They may disconnect
and remove the radio and replace it, but they may not open it or
perform any mods or adjustments. That is still the exclusive domain
of the repairer, according to FCC rules. You might check some of the
US Mariner organization web sites for more info about requirements for
Radio Officers as well. They still need the second class
radiotelegraph license to be on the ships which is still 20 WPM.

As far as the code required to operate the stations, I agree with you
about aircraft, however, see the above for maritime stations. A 2nd
class radiotelegraph is still needed for the operator, despite the
station itself being licensed, at least for US flagged vessels. There
is still a very large proliferation of CW coast stations worldwide as
well, so something is still going on, right?

As far as my anecdotal story goes, that was what the ARRLs story was
way back when, when I got my license. I believe that to be more
palatable than your anectode at any rate. True or not, that's what
was in the books and that's what we all believed. The War Dept. (now
the Dept. of the Army) didn't cause cessation of ham radio until
everything hit the fan in WWII. Hams were even regarded as national
resources and helped win the war.

Unfortunately, We the People gave Big Brother the rights to our
airwaves many, many years ago. Now they are regulated by the
government and just you try to do something saying they belong to the
people. See what happens, LOL. The only time they belong to the
people is when the government is prosecuting someone in the name of
the people. It's easier to get convictions that way. LOL

I know a lot of your own personal feelings are put into your posts,
but unfortunately, what you believe, and what laws and rules actually
exist, conflict in so many areas, Jack. Code is still required for a
reason, whatever that may be, and while I agree it may not be
necessary in the vast majority of cases, there will always be that one
exception to the rule emergency-wise, that I believe completely
justifies at least keeping the 5 WPM.

73s
ASA Lives!

Al

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