On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 07:39:42 GMT, "David Eduardo"
wrote:


"David" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 18:18:14 -0800, wrote:

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 20:15:40 GMT, "David Eduardo"

Which LA stations?

I like the AM 1260 gang on 105.1's HD2. Gary Owens, etc.

Star 98.7 has an all '80s stream. 92.3 plays soul classics. Those
are the ones I can get up here in Duckburg. Oh yeah, KROQ is just
mirroring their main channel.

All stations repeat the main channel in HD. It is the HD-2 channel that will
have the new formats.


I'm talking about the 2nd channel. All CBS HD2s in a market are
mirroring the main channel for the time being AFAIK.

clifto wrote:

Eric F. Richards wrote:
Do you think that terrestrial radio will have more listeners hearing
those ads, or fewer, in 10 years? Do you think the so-called HD/IBOC
(which is neither HD, nor in-band) will improve the situation or not?

PMFJI, but I believe that even the satellite radio services (XM and
Sirius) will be broadcasting commercials within a year or three, in
addition to charging subscription fees.

I agree completely. The commercial-free aspect of them is a
short-lived hook.

But their advertising model will be different, since their coverage is
nationwide by definition -- the terrestrial people should be looking
closely and their business plan for advertising.


--
Eric F. Richards

"Nature abhors a vacuum tube." -- Myron Glass,
often attributed to J. R. Pierce, Bell Labs, c. 1940

D Peter Maus wrote:

Eric F. Richards wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:

And, again, in the US Radio is ALWAYS about the money.

[...]
This is the crux of the matter: Advertisers call the shots. They always
have. Everywhere.

Sure. But both the stations and the advertisers are working from a
flawed model. It's like two blind guys trying to take care of an
elephant, based solely on how the tail feels to them.

The advertiser is told that if he does such-and-such, the tail will
feel better according to some arbitrary attribute of how the tail
feels. So he does such and such, and the tail feels better according
to his measure.

But his measure has no effect on the real picture. Everyone sees
through the same distorted lens, so they get the right results based
on that view.

But the view has nothing to do with the real elephant, or listening
audience.


Yes. Actually, there's more truth to that analogy than most are
willing to recognize. But the real matter is that it doesn't matter
whether the model is flawed, or not. It's what works for the people who
make the decisions and call the shots. It produces revenue and profits
and business embraces it. Radio is in the business of selling the tails.

But to stretch the analogy to its limits, the two blind guys are
putting conditioner on the tail to make it softer, but the elephant
never gets fed or gets any water. The elephant dies eventually, no
matter how wonderful the tail feels.


And for the comparatively few, like you and me, it's distasteful that
things work this way. It's a waste of resource. So be it. It is the way
it is. If you can convince Radio there's money in changing
it...well...then make your pitch.

Oh, no. The emperor is naked, but no one is willing to believe that.
I'm just an observer, watching something very sad happening.




I've said this nine ways from Sunday, and I don't know how to say it
better, so let's try some fundamental questions -- I respect your
viewpoint, Peter:

Do you think that terrestrial radio will have more listeners hearing
those ads, or fewer, in 10 years? Do you think the so-called HD/IBOC
(which is neither HD, nor in-band) will improve the situation or not?


Me personally? Fractionalization of the audience will bleed off
listening, yes. I think so. Radio will adapt. As David likes to point
out, listening levels per capita are only marginally less than they were
in the 70's. Although, during some pretty detailed staff meetings at In
finity, Mel Karmazin painted an entirely different picture. HD/IBOC FM
has some advantages, without the liabilities of AM HD/IBOC. Multiple
revenue streams and, ultimately, subscription radio among them. AM
HD/IBOC is not so compelling to listen to as good AM Stereo. And it
comes with some technical liabilities which we've all discussed. But
then, listeners respond to content. If the content is what a listener
finds appealing, quality is relative. Noise, on the other hand, is a
different matter. If HD does away with the crackle of electrical and
atmospheric noise on AM then it will attract a listener base regardless
of the audio quality, which to my ears blows chunks.

Yes. Do you remember when CDs first came out? The "golden ears"
complained about the artifacts, even thought the Nyquist Limit was
22,050 kHz. They found the sound fatiguing.

This time, one won't need a golden ear to hear the artifacts. I
cringe on what comes out of my car radio from NPR when they have a
feed filled with artifacts. When you can hear it over the road noise
on a car radio... that's an accomplishment.

It won't just sound bad, it will be painful to listen to.


I don't care for it. But then, I don't do much listening, anymore,
either.


Bottom line. No matter what the advertisers are willing to pay,
there's no return if there are no listeners.


You can get a cap cost past the bean counters. Recurring costs
they'll move heaven and earth to cut.

Yeah, I have my own experiences along those lines -- like the bean
counters being willing to pay 60% of the buyout cost on a lease for a
piece of equipment... that is, 60% per month! But the accounting
rules made it "cheaper" to do that, no matter where the money goes.
And the equipment, a computer system, would have been put on a 10 year
depreciation schedule. A severe case of unreality.

OBTW, that company is long gone, and they were a Fortune 500 player
when this was going on.



Do you think people are willing to pay extra for all this? They will,
one way or the other.

Yes they will. And eventually, they'll embrace it. Because there will
be little option.

That I disagree with. The growth of podcasts, satellite radio, etc.,
will fill the void. For the longest time, I felt that radio would
endure, because of the low amount of infrastructure to keep it going.
I didn't count on the sheer stupidity of people behind radio.

Eventually, that noise will die down. Look at cable. Bitching there,
too. And lots of it. Paying for TV? Are you nuts?

Have you seen cable bills lately? Dish? Satellite Radio?

Yes, I have. But cable has gone far beyond providing community access
to clean local TV pictures -- cable is clogged with networks
unavailable on broadcast TV.

Even so, there are people who simply have cut the cord to the cable
companies and simply rent/buy movies or don't have TVs. They are a
small minority, but they are there.


Will the public pay for HD Radio. Sure they will. By the time you
fully dress an iPod system, you can drop half a kilobuck. Doesn't seem
to be slowing things down. HD Radio, especially, when there is no
option, will sell. At least on FM.

FM is the only place where the model even remotely makes sense. But
HD FM, taking advantage of the extremely wideband nature of FMBCB,
will be too greedy to just do it better -- it will fit multiple
streams into that bandwidth until they all sound like crap... like the
gas station that waters its gas down until the customers scream.


We're simply witnessing the death of radio.


Obituaries may be premature.


Time will tell. This message will last in archives that long, so
people like Edwardo can point and laugh in 10 years after radio grows
under his mercenary hand.

But my money is riding against it.

--
Eric F. Richards

"This book reads like a headache on paper."
http://www.cnn.com/2001/CAREER/readi...one/index.html

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
m...


In LA, there are nearly a dozen HD-2 channels already active, all with
previously uncovered niche formats. Serving listener groups is not QRM.



Are these niche formats expected to get people listening to the radio when
they otherwise would not be listening? If IBOC significantly expands the
audience, I can see an advantage for both the audience and the advertisers.

However, my Inner Conspiracy Theorist keeps telling me that IBOC won't
expand the total radio audience much, if at all, and multicasting's biggest
effect will be in drawing advertising revenue away from from the smaller,
non-IBOC stations.

Frank Dresser

"David" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 07:39:42 GMT, "David Eduardo"
wrote:


"David" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 18:18:14 -0800, wrote:

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 20:15:40 GMT, "David Eduardo"

Which LA stations?

I like the AM 1260 gang on 105.1's HD2. Gary Owens, etc.

Star 98.7 has an all '80s stream. 92.3 plays soul classics. Those
are the ones I can get up here in Duckburg. Oh yeah, KROQ is just
mirroring their main channel.

All stations repeat the main channel in HD. It is the HD-2 channel that
will
have the new formats.


I'm talking about the 2nd channel. All CBS HD2s in a market are
mirroring the main channel for the time being AFAIK.

No, the HD-2 channels are separate.

"Eric F. Richards" wrote in message
...
clifto wrote:

Eric F. Richards wrote:
Do you think that terrestrial radio will have more listeners hearing
those ads, or fewer, in 10 years? Do you think the so-called HD/IBOC
(which is neither HD, nor in-band) will improve the situation or not?

PMFJI, but I believe that even the satellite radio services (XM and
Sirius) will be broadcasting commercials within a year or three, in
addition to charging subscription fees.

I agree completely. The commercial-free aspect of them is a
short-lived hook.

Actually, XM took commercials off the music channels two years after
start-up. I know; I programmed 5 of the channels.

But their advertising model will be different, since their coverage is
nationwide by definition -- the terrestrial people should be looking
closely and their business plan for advertising.

Satellite has run commercials since its offset on the talk channels, and XM
started with commercials on all music channels but took them off. Neither
believes more than 5% of revenues will ever come from advertising.

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:41:58 GMT, "David Eduardo"
wrote:



No, the HD-2 channels are separate.


OK, Mr. Smarty Pants Communist; what's on KROQ's second HD channel?

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:08:04 GMT, "Frank Dresser"
wrote:


"David Eduardo" wrote in message
om...


In LA, there are nearly a dozen HD-2 channels already active, all with
previously uncovered niche formats. Serving listener groups is not QRM.



Are these niche formats expected to get people listening to the radio when
they otherwise would not be listening? If IBOC significantly expands the
audience, I can see an advantage for both the audience and the advertisers.

However, my Inner Conspiracy Theorist keeps telling me that IBOC won't
expand the total radio audience much, if at all, and multicasting's biggest
effect will be in drawing advertising revenue away from from the smaller,
non-IBOC stations.

Frank Dresser

It's only purpose is to slow the permanent loss of audience to SDARS,
Cell Phones and MP-3 players.

"David" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:41:58 GMT, "David Eduardo"
wrote:



No, the HD-2 channels are separate.


OK, Mr. Smarty Pants Communist; what's on KROQ's second HD channel?

I have no idea. It was active when I scanned last week, but I am in Chicago
and my HD radio is in LA.

"David" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:41:58 GMT, "David Eduardo"
wrote:



No, the HD-2 channels are separate.


OK, Mr. Smarty Pants Communist; what's on KROQ's second HD channel?

Infinity HD 2 channels
Los Angeles:

Adult Hits KCBS HD2 "Variety Top 40"

Talk KLSX HD2 "Female Talk"

Alternative KROQ HD2 "Xtreme Active Rock"

Oldies KRTH HD2 "50s/60s Oldies"

Smooth Jazz KTWV HD2 "Classic Jazz"



Clear Channel

Los Angeles:

Hot AC KBIG HD2 "Disco"

Urban AC KHHT HD2 "Jammin Oldies with Hispanic Skew"

Top 40 KIIS HD2 "Kisspanic/Hispanic KISS"

AC KOST HD2 "Lite Classics (Madonna to Sinatra)"

Modern AC KYSR HD2 "All 80s/80s Hits"

These multicasts are launching on MONDAY (1/23).



Emmis has Power Dos on 1|05.9 and alternative on KZLA.



That makes 12.