On Sat, 30 May 2009 17:28:18 -0700, Usual Suspect
wrote:

WInegard makes an antenna-in-a-box, the SS-1000 which lists ~4 db gain over
the UHF TV range:
http://tinyurl.com/nqpzm2

4dB isn't very much gain. Compare this with some other available
antennas:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
Unfortunately, the SS-1000 and SS-1000 are not listed.

Depending on the distance between your apartment and the antenna
location, the +4dB antenna gain may not be sufficient to compensate
for the coax loss. Are you in a weak signal or strong signal area? Is
an antenna amplifier justified? If so, you might need 3 amplifiers
for your 3 different directions.

Also, a 4dB gain antenna will not have a very directional antenna
pattern or be particularly directional. My guess(tm) is perhaps 120
degrees wide. There probably won't be much difference in signal
strength if your 3 directions are within the beam width.

I must say at the outset that I am hesitant to buy an antenna based on its
form-factor, but I'm forced by the local code to not display bare-element
type antennae on the mast.

As others have mentioned, this is mostly incorrect. The problem is in
the interpretation of the word "unreasonable", which might be
interpreted in a variety of ways. Without details on your situation,
I can't comment on this.

I do like the panel style for the reason that I can arrange 3 around a common
mast, aimed at remote cities, and join the outputs for increased coverage.

Mast? Welcome to "unreasonable". The FCC 47.1.4000 clause that
limits antenna installation has nothing to say about the supporting
structure. While the HOA may not be able to prevent you from
installing an antenna, they most certainly will have something to say
about the design and construction of the supporting structure. They
may also demand that it be installed by a licensed and insured
installer to protect themselves against subsequent litigation. I know
you don't want to hear about all this, but methinks you should at
least be warned before blundering onward.

Has anyone experience with the SS-1000? Or can recommend a similar style
antenna?

No recommendations. Antennas are sized and designed to solve specific
problems. The design required in a strong signal area is quite
different from one in a weak signal area, in an urban canyon, for an
indoor installation, or if it is intended to be disguised or
minimalized. It's also important to know the lowest VHF frequency or
channel that the antenna is expected to operate as this has a huge
effect on the physical size of the antenna. Without a clue as to your
situation, it's impossible to offer an endorsement or alternative. If
you find it inconvenient to disclose such details, I suggest you use:
http://www.antennaweb.org
to optimize your selection and proposed installation.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On May 31, 10:06*am, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 30 May 2009 17:28:18 -0700, Usual Suspect

wrote:

WInegard makes an antenna-in-a-box, the SS-1000 which lists ~4 db
gain over
the UHF TV range:
http://tinyurl.com/nqpzm2

4dB isn't very much gain. *Compare this with some other available
antennas:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
Unfortunately, the SS-1000 and SS-1000 are not listed.

Sure it is but it's called 'Square Shooter'

Depending on the distance between your apartment and the antenna
location, the +4dB antenna gain may not be sufficient to compensate
for the coax loss. *Are you in a weak signal or strong signal area?
Is
an antenna amplifier justified? * If so, you might need 3
amplifiers
for your 3 different directions.

As I said, I use it 35 miles out from Mt Wilson (Los Angeles) and have
it split 4 ways - no preamps. I do have Line Of Sight (just barely)

Also, a 4dB gain antenna will not have a very directional antenna
pattern or be particularly directional. *My guess(tm) is perhaps
120
degrees wide. *There probably won't be much difference in signal
strength if your 3 directions are within the beam width.

You're right, it isn't very directional but it has a reasonable front-
to-back ratio.

I must say at the outset that I am hesitant to buy an antenna
based on its
form-factor, but I'm forced by the local code to not display bare-
element
type antennae on the mast.

I don't like getting into 'contests' with the HOAs if I can avoid it.
After all, we have to live with them.

As others have mentioned, this is mostly incorrect. *The problem is
in
the interpretation of the word "unreasonable", which might be
interpreted in a variety of ways. *Without details on your
situation,
I can't comment on this.

I do like the panel style for the reason that I can arrange 3
around a common
mast, aimed at remote cities, and join the outputs for increased
coverage.

Mast? *Welcome to "unreasonable". *The FCC 47.1.4000 clause that
limits antenna installation has nothing to say about the supporting
structure. *While the HOA may not be able to prevent you from
installing an antenna, they most certainly will have something to
say
about the design and construction of the supporting structure.
*They
may also demand that it be installed by a licensed and insured
installer to protect themselves against subsequent litigation. *I
know
you don't want to hear about all this, but methinks you should at
least be warned before blundering onward.

Has anyone experience with the SS-1000? Or can recommend a similar
style
antenna?

No recommendations. *Antennas are sized and designed to solve
specific
problems. *The design required in a strong signal area is quite
different from one in a weak signal area, in an urban canyon, for
an
indoor installation, or if it is intended to be disguised or
minimalized. *It's also important to know the lowest VHF frequency
or
channel that the antenna is expected to operate as this has a huge
effect on the physical size of the antenna. *Without a clue as to
your
situation, it's impossible to offer an endorsement or alternative.
*If
you find it inconvenient to disclose such details, I suggest you
use:
http://www.antennaweb.org
to optimize your selection and proposed installation.

--
Jeff Liebermann * *

All I can say is I've been using Winegard antennas since 1974 and have
found them to be well built good performers and have never been
disappointed with their products. Also, any friends who took my advice
were never disappointed with either the antannas OR me.

G²

On Sun, 31 May 2009 11:16:42 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On May 31, 10:06*am, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
Unfortunately, the SS-1000 and SS-1000 are not listed.

Sure it is but it's called 'Square Shooter'

Sorry, typo error. I mean't the SS-1000 and SS-2000 (amplified). It
does list the "Sharp Shooter" which is a different indoor antenna.

What's inside the SS-1000 and some really weird "gain" tests:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/squareshot.htm

As I said, I use it 35 miles out from Mt Wilson (Los Angeles) and have
it split 4 ways - no preamps. I do have Line Of Sight (just barely)

Yes, but the original poster may not have such an ideal location.

Also, bad guess on the beamwidth. It's 54 (channel 69) to 95 (channel
7) degrees. Sorry.

You're right, it isn't very directional but it has a reasonable front-
to-back ratio.

It varies with frequency. It's only 2.6dB at channel 10. See specs
below.

All I can say is I've been using Winegard antennas since 1974 and have
found them to be well built good performers and have never been
disappointed with their products. Also, any friends who took my advice
were never disappointed with either the antannas OR me.

I try to avoid shopping by brand. Even the best manufacturers have
their lemons and losers. Right now, the advertising trend is to
replace your existing antenna with an HD or Digital TV antenna,
whatever that means. Also, to make it look like a DBS dish, which is
generally accepted by most HOA.

Specs and details:
http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/spec_ss1000-ss2000.pdf
http://www.winegarddirect.com/squareshooter-ss1000-ss2000/winegard-square-shooter.htm
http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem~p~ss-1000~d~Winegard-SS1000-SquareShooter-UHF-Only-DigitalAnalogHDTV-Antenna-System-(SS1000)~post~.htm
I don't see much to complain about in the design and construction of
this antenna. However, whether it's suitable for the OP's location
and application is unknown.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Yes, but the original poster may not have such an ideal location.

TV Fool azimuth plot:

http://i44.tinypic.com/2a4wghx.jpg

Was considering 3 antennae with wide reception angles pointed generally at
45, 140, 310 deg. Only 3 are LOS (15, 18, 33)

Pretty flat terrain, no tall structures nearby . Top of the mast: 14 ft. agl.


Thanks.
--
Al, the usual

On Sun, 31 May 2009 14:04:50 -0700, Usual Suspect
wrote:

Yes, but the original poster may not have such an ideal location.

TV Fool azimuth plot:
http://i44.tinypic.com/2a4wghx.jpg

Nice plot. Kinda looks like you'll need a rotator. The -3dB
beamwidth varies from 54 to 95 degrees. At best, 3 antennas will
cover 3*95 = 285 degrees. At worst, 3*54 = 162 degrees.

Was considering 3 antennae with wide reception angles pointed generally at
45, 140, 310 deg. Only 3 are LOS (15, 18, 33)

What are the ranges and approximate signal strengths? Looks like 18
and 33 can be covered with one antenna pointed at about 250 degrees. A
second antenna at 45 degrees *MIGHT* catch the largest number of
channels. However, there's no optimum location for a 3rd antenna to
catch all the remaining stations. You'll probably have to pick and
choose among the relatively strong ones and take what you can get.
With a UHF only antenna, stations 2-13 are problematic (or
impossible). If you're going to run multiple antennas, you'll
probably need an antenna switch, 3 tower mounted amplifiers, and 3
coax cable runs. If you try to combine then with a power splitter,
you'll get interaction between antennas and an ugly and unpredictable
pattern.

With an indoor antenna of any sorts, which ones can you receive
(including the weak ones)? With only 4dBi of antenna gain, I don't
think you'll be able to dig the ones you can't receive out of the
noise.

Pretty flat terrain, no tall structures nearby . Top of the mast: 14 ft. agl.

They let you have a 14 ft mast and you're worried about the antenna
police? Might as well go for broke. Install a real yagi antenna,
tower mounted amplifier, and rotator. For the tower amp, I recommend
a Channel Master 7777.
http://www.channelmasterintl.com/amplifiers.html
For an antenna, whatever you can find. The bigger and uglier the
anenna, the better it works. See specs at:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

If you're not sure, buy just one antenna, hang it out the window on a
broom stick, and see what it does. If you're close, continue with
your proposed ideas. If it looks hopeless, give up before you burn
any more money.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On May 31, 11:52*am, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 11:16:42 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On May 31, 10:06*am, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
Unfortunately, the SS-1000 and SS-1000 are not listed.

Sure it is but it's called 'Square Shooter'

Sorry, typo error. *I mean't the SS-1000 and SS-2000 (amplified). *It
does list the "Sharp Shooter" which is a different indoor antenna.

What's inside the SS-1000 and some really weird "gain" tests:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/squareshot.htm

It's antenna 'M', the Square Shooter

As I said, I use it 35 miles out from Mt Wilson (Los Angeles) and have
it split 4 ways - no preamps. I do have Line Of Sight (just barely)

Yes, but the original poster may not have such an ideal location.

And that is why I point out my line of sight condidtion at 35 miles

Also, bad guess on the beamwidth. *It's 54 (channel 69) to 95 (channel
7) degrees. *Sorry.

You're right, it isn't very directional but it has a reasonable front-
to-back ratio.

It varies with frequency. *It's only 2.6dB at channel 10. *See specs
below.

I don't expect it to be usable where I'm at for channels 7,9,11 and
13. I'll try it and if / when it fails, I'll tie in the VHF of the
Winegard in the garage eaves. Hopefully its VHF performance will make
the grade under the roof 'chaff'. If the wife would put up with the
all channel garage antenna on the roof, it would certainly be fine BUT
she doesn't want to look at it, hence the SS-1000 at least for the
UHF.

All I can say is I've been using Winegard antennas since 1974 and have
found them to be well built good performers and have never been
disappointed with their products. Also, any friends who took my advice
were never disappointed with either the antannas OR me.

I try to avoid shopping by brand. *Even the best manufacturers have
their lemons and losers. *Right now, the advertising trend is to
replace your existing antenna with an HD or Digital TV antenna,
whatever that means. *Also, to make it look like a DBS dish, which is
generally accepted by most HOA.

Specs and details: *
http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/spec_ss1000-ss2000.pdf
http://www.winegarddirect.com/squareshooter-ss1000-ss2000/winegard-sq...
http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem~p~ss-1000~d~Winegard-SS1000-Sq...
I don't see much to complain about in the design and construction of
this antenna. *However, whether it's suitable for the OP's location
and application is unknown.

--
Jeff Liebermann * *

You won't find any new Sony at our house but you will find 4 Gigabyte
motherboards with AMD processors, 3 old Technics receivers, 8 Advent
speakers, Canon cameras and a lot of who knows what. When one of the
brands falls short I'll re-evaluate but for now I'm happy.

G²

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I must say at the outset that I am hesitant to buy an antenna based on its
form-factor, but I'm forced by the local code to not display bare-element
type antennae on the mast.

As others have mentioned, this is mostly incorrect. The problem is in
the interpretation of the word "unreasonable", which might be
interpreted in a variety of ways. Without details on your situation,
I can't comment on this.

The FCC website has quite a bit of info on interpretation (from various
regulatory and legal actions) of what is and isn't unreasonable. Paint
color: reasonable, restrictions on location: unreasonable, restrictions
on form of antenna: unreasonable.




I do like the panel style for the reason that I can arrange 3 around a common
mast, aimed at remote cities, and join the outputs for increased coverage.

Mast? Welcome to "unreasonable". The FCC 47.1.4000 clause that
limits antenna installation has nothing to say about the supporting
structure. While the HOA may not be able to prevent you from
installing an antenna, they most certainly will have something to say
about the design and construction of the supporting structure. They
may also demand that it be installed by a licensed and insured
installer to protect themselves against subsequent litigation. I know
you don't want to hear about all this, but methinks you should at
least be warned before blundering onward.


Hah.. go look at the case of Stanley and Vera Holliday.. 5 masts 30 ft
high, multiple dishes and antenans...

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Ord...9/da992132.txt

an analysis at
http://dirt.umkc.edu//dd99/DD991025.htm