In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil

writes:

I believe that's the beauty of the Orion, it's never "ancient." The
latest
upgrade is just a download away. I feel for the poor slob who finally
breaks
down and buys a '7800 just before the '7800 Pro or Pro II comes out.

TT just keeps making it better and better. The rig is now about eight
months old and I've downloaded about ten firmware releases in that time.

"FIRMWARE releases?!?"

Yes, firmware releases.

Gosh, you must be equipped with a Star Trek Transporter! :-)

No, just a PC with an internet connection.

Oh, you mean SOFTWARE updates, right?

No, I don't. I mean firmware updates.

Get it straight, Herr Robust.

"Firmware" is hardware.

There is NO computer system anywhere in the world that will "download
firmware."


Let's see, that's more than one per month.

- Version 1.325 - initial release
03/26/03 Version 1.326
03/27/03 Version 1.327
03/28/03 Version 1.328
03/31/03 Version 1.329
04/01/03 Version 1.330
04/02/03 Version 1.331
04/03/04 Version 1.332
04/04/03 Version 1.333
04/06/03 Version 1.334
04/07/03 Version 1.335
04/08/03 Version 1.336
04/10/03 Version 1.337
04/11/03 - 04/13/03 Version 1.338
04/14/03 - 04/16/03 Version 1.339
04/26/03-05/06/03 Version 1.340
05/12/03-05/14/03 Version 1.341
05/19/03-05/22/03 Version 1.342
05/27/03 Version 1.343
06/03/03 Version 1.344
06/06/03 Version 1.345
06/11/03 Version 1.346
06/13/03 Version 1.347
06/25/03 Version 1.348
07/08/03 Version 1.349
07/10/03 VERSION 1.350
07/29/03 Version 1.351
08/07/03 Version 1.352
08/11/03 Version 1.353
08/12/03 Version 1.354
08/15/03 Version 1.355
08/19/03 Version 1.356
08/21/03 Version 1.357
08/22/03 Version 1.358
08/25/03 Version 1.359
09/12/03 Version 1.360
09/16/03 Version 1.361
09/25/03 Version 1.362
10/06/03 Version 1.363
10/22/03 Version 1.364
10/23/03 Version 1.365
11/14/03 Version 1.366
12/19/03 Version 1.367

Well, it certainly looks like more than one per month, doesn't it old fellow?
Interestingly, the manufacturer lists the above list under "Firmware
Revision History".

All that many updates?

Tells me they didn't know what they were doing to begin with, or just
shoved software and hardware out the door before they had finished
testing the firmware and software.


I would think that Orion could have stabilized the programming by
now. No new band changes have happened in eight months... :-)

Really? I seem to recall adding 60m capability to the Orion. Weren't
you paying attention? Were you under the impression that "band changes"
were the only things which could be modified in the Orion?

Apparently it can also TRANSPORT material things as they did on
Star Trek.

Perhaps they should have beamed up some smarts to release the
RIGHT code the first time...


Gosh, Orion must "not be interested in radio" if they can't get
their software routines stabilized by now...

"Orion" isn't? It would seem that the Ten-Tec folks would show their
lack of interest by not issuing any updates at all. You may resume your
nap, Leonard.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Oh, my, you drone on busy prussian bee. It's like listening to a
lecture on 1800s science...all done by amateurs.

Nothing new, same old "landfill" remarks from the prussian.

LHA / WMD

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil

writes:

I believe that's the beauty of the Orion, it's never "ancient." The
latest
upgrade is just a download away. I feel for the poor slob who finally
breaks
down and buys a '7800 just before the '7800 Pro or Pro II comes out.

TT just keeps making it better and better. The rig is now about eight
months old and I've downloaded about ten firmware releases in that time.

"FIRMWARE releases?!?"

Yes, firmware releases.

Gosh, you must be equipped with a Star Trek Transporter! :-)

No, just a PC with an internet connection.

Oh, you mean SOFTWARE updates, right?

No, I don't. I mean firmware updates.

Get it straight, Herr Robust.

"Firmware" is hardware.

Actually, kindly old gent, you don't have it quite right. You may go to
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definit...212127,00.html to
educate yourself. Afterward, you may like to take a look at the site
where such firmware upgrades are available for the Orion:
http://www.rfsquared.com/ Please note the first two words in blue at
the top center of the page.

There is NO computer system anywhere in the world that will "download
firmware."

It appears that you are quite mistaken.

Let's see, that's more than one per month.

- Version 1.325 - initial release
03/26/03 Version 1.326
03/27/03 Version 1.327
03/28/03 Version 1.328
03/31/03 Version 1.329
04/01/03 Version 1.330
04/02/03 Version 1.331
04/03/04 Version 1.332
04/04/03 Version 1.333
04/06/03 Version 1.334
04/07/03 Version 1.335
04/08/03 Version 1.336
04/10/03 Version 1.337
04/11/03 - 04/13/03 Version 1.338
04/14/03 - 04/16/03 Version 1.339
04/26/03-05/06/03 Version 1.340
05/12/03-05/14/03 Version 1.341
05/19/03-05/22/03 Version 1.342
05/27/03 Version 1.343
06/03/03 Version 1.344
06/06/03 Version 1.345
06/11/03 Version 1.346
06/13/03 Version 1.347
06/25/03 Version 1.348
07/08/03 Version 1.349
07/10/03 VERSION 1.350
07/29/03 Version 1.351
08/07/03 Version 1.352
08/11/03 Version 1.353
08/12/03 Version 1.354
08/15/03 Version 1.355
08/19/03 Version 1.356
08/21/03 Version 1.357
08/22/03 Version 1.358
08/25/03 Version 1.359
09/12/03 Version 1.360
09/16/03 Version 1.361
09/25/03 Version 1.362
10/06/03 Version 1.363
10/22/03 Version 1.364
10/23/03 Version 1.365
11/14/03 Version 1.366
12/19/03 Version 1.367

Well, it certainly looks like more than one per month, doesn't it old fellow?
Interestingly, the manufacturer lists the above list under "Firmware
Revision History".

All that many updates?

Why would I have reason to manufacture a phony list?

Tells me they didn't know what they were doing to begin with, or just
shoved software and hardware out the door before they had finished
testing the firmware and software.

No, that's simply what you've guessed and you'd again be incorrect.

I would think that Orion could have stabilized the programming by
now. No new band changes have happened in eight months... :-)

Really? I seem to recall adding 60m capability to the Orion. Weren't
you paying attention? Were you under the impression that "band changes"
were the only things which could be modified in the Orion?

Apparently it can also TRANSPORT material things as they did on
Star Trek.

Perhaps they should have beamed up some smarts to release the
RIGHT code the first time...

I'm sure that you'd have done so and that you'd have designed a
transceiver which performed much, much better. Your abilities are
legend.

Oh, my, you drone on busy prussian bee. It's like listening to a
lecture on 1800s science...all done by amateurs.

Nothing new, same old "landfill" remarks from the prussian.


There's plenty new, Leonard. You may start your education after you
learn about firmware.

Dave K8MN

Dave Heil wrote:

There's plenty new, Leonard. You may start your education after you
learn about firmware.

I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem.
Guess I'll have to use UPS next time. 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:

Dave Heil wrote:

There's plenty new, Leonard. You may start your education after you
learn about firmware.

I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem.
Guess I'll have to use UPS next time. 8^)

Careful, Mike. Leonard is an electrical engineer and a proud
electronics professional.

Dave K8MN

Dave Heil wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

Dave Heil wrote:


There's plenty new, Leonard. You may start your education after you
learn about firmware.

I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem.
Guess I'll have to use UPS next time. 8^)


Careful, Mike. Leonard is an electrical engineer and a proud
electronics professional.

Oh, I'm certain I'll get the old chops busted. I'm firmly convinced of
that!!

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem.

Something electro-existentialist about that, Mike.

Reminds me of a Lily Tomlin joke where she describes going to the store and
buying a wastepaper basket. At the checkout counter the cashier put the
wastepaper basket in a paper bag. Once she got it home, Lily took the
wastepaper basket out of the paper bag, folded up the paper bag, and put the
paper bag into the wastepaper basket.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem.


Something electro-existentialist about that, Mike.

Reminds me of a Lily Tomlin joke where she describes going to the store and
buying a wastepaper basket. At the checkout counter the cashier put the
wastepaper basket in a paper bag. Once she got it home, Lily took the
wastepaper basket out of the paper bag, folded up the paper bag, and put the
paper bag into the wastepaper basket.


Yeah, I though of that after I reread the post. Cool!!

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Dave Heil wrote:

There's plenty new, Leonard. You may start your education after you
learn about firmware.

I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem.

Guess I'll have to use UPS next time. 8^)

Mike, "firmware" is programming instructions that are quite
permanent, almost never alterable by a user.

An example of "firmware" is a mask-programmed ROM. Not the
erasable type such as in a 2716 EPROM. With the advent of
FLASH memory the extra cost of masking for a mask-programmed
ROM has fallen out of favor over the last decade. Once made, a
mask-programmed ROM cannot be altered.

Another example of "firmware" is the PLD or Programmable Logic
Devices. Those are literally "blown" using on-chip "fuses" (links)
which are vaporized by the programmer. Once done, the PLD can
not be altered, thus it is not "upgradeable."

There are EPROMs available which have NO UV-erase window.
That cuts the cost of the package by a cent or two. Those are
production-erased before programming, then programmed to the
customer's request data by a multiple-unit programmer. Definitely
FIRM ware since a user would have to open the IC package to
erase the ROM and reprogram it.

All microprocessors have "firmware" in them in the form of the
Instruction Set decode-and-execute part of the chip. Those form
the entire instruction set of the microprocessor and cannot be
changed...hence the label of "firm."

A rare form of "firmware" is the hard-wired logic arrangment of ICs,
particularly with "state machines." That can only be "upgraded"
with actual physical wire changes on the board. The 1979 Apple ][
Disk Controller card was mostly a state machine designed by
Steve Wozniak himself. In early minicomputers the instruction set
decoder was a combination of state machine and hard-wired logic
chips; that evolved into ROM and then became part of the micro-
processor chip structure.

"Software" is instructions which can be altered by a user. Every
program for a PC or MAC is a "software." The instructions or
program are stored locally on a disk ("hard" or "floppy") and may be
accessed at any time by the PC's disk operating system. Early
software was loaded by paper tape, then magnetic tape, then by
floppy, then by hard disk, finally by CD-ROM.

A CD-ROM is not labelled either "firm" or "soft" since it contains
software which is not easily altered by the user...but parts of each
one can be rewritten if the content does not fill the CD. Software on
so-called "protected" media can be defeated but that takes a
modification of the CD writer program and probably some physical
changes in the CD drive itself.

The electronics industry has pretty well defined what is "firmware"
and what is "software" over the last three decades. Lately (in the
last half-dozen years) the appearance of the useable/programmable
microcontroller such as Microchip's "PIC" series has allowed a
re-programming of the stored program in the PIC's FLASH memory.
This is because Microchip's design (and other microcontrollers)
usually allow an extra package pin and internal registers/instruction-
set for such reprogramming. That isn't always the case with mass-
purchase special microcontrollers which may have the reprogramming
feature inaccessible to the user. Examples of that are various low-
cost appliances such as lawn sprinkler controllers or automatic coffee
makers. On those, the only thing alterable is some settings of
operation such as time. Settings sometimes go into FLASH memory
but the user cannot necessarily alter the main instruction program
set into the microcontroller.

Industry is going away from the absolute labels of "firmware" with
the new IC technologies. A microcontroller's program is simply called
"a program" if it can be loaded over the existing program or otherwise
changed by the user. Program content is still called "software"
because that has become normal in the wider group of computer and
consumer electronics users. Such software comes on CD-ROM,
floppy disks, but sometimes (for hobbyists) as "source code" for a
microcontroller's development program which can also load the
program into the micro. "Source code" is the human-readable
instructions of the program and the development program translates
that into microcontroller machine code for programming.

Anything that is "firm" in ware is not readily alterable by the user.
Anything that is "soft" in ware is readily alterable by the user.

If a program or data is downloadable over a modem, it does so in
software form.

You can call anything you want by whatever name you want but
it won't necessarily be understood by a distributor or parts seller.
There's several millions of folks involved in the worldwide electronics
industry (which includes radio) so, if you want some "firmware" that
can be downloaded over a modem, you'd best be VERY specific
in describing it.

You can call a spade a hoe, but be prepared to talk to the NAACP.

LHA / WMD

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Dave Heil wrote:

There's plenty new, Leonard. You may start your education after you
learn about firmware.

I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem.

Guess I'll have to use UPS next time. 8^)

Mike, "firmware" is programming instructions that are quite
permanent, almost never alterable by a user.

Leonard, I can't alter the firmware upgrades. I can only replace the
existing download with the new one.

An example of "firmware" is a mask-programmed ROM. Not the
erasable type such as in a 2716 EPROM. With the advent of
FLASH memory the extra cost of masking for a mask-programmed
ROM has fallen out of favor over the last decade. Once made, a
mask-programmed ROM cannot be altered.

I'm the user. I can't alter the program at all. I can, however,
replace the program with an updated one.

Another example of "firmware" is the PLD or Programmable Logic
Devices. Those are literally "blown" using on-chip "fuses" (links)
which are vaporized by the programmer. Once done, the PLD can
not be altered, thus it is not "upgradeable."

I'll bet that's what Ten-Tec has done! Those characters have used a PLD
and simply put the serial port on the back of the Orion just for show.
Users download the firmware upgrade, attach a serial cable and only
think they are loading the newest version into the transceiver. Yep,
that's probably what happened.

There are EPROMs available which have NO UV-erase window.
That cuts the cost of the package by a cent or two. Those are
production-erased before programming, then programmed to the
customer's request data by a multiple-unit programmer. Definitely
FIRM ware since a user would have to open the IC package to
erase the ROM and reprogram it.

All microprocessors have "firmware" in them in the form of the
Instruction Set decode-and-execute part of the chip. Those form
the entire instruction set of the microprocessor and cannot be
changed...hence the label of "firm."

A rare form of "firmware" is the hard-wired logic arrangment of ICs,
particularly with "state machines." That can only be "upgraded"
with actual physical wire changes on the board. The 1979 Apple ][
Disk Controller card was mostly a state machine designed by
Steve Wozniak himself. In early minicomputers the instruction set
decoder was a combination of state machine and hard-wired logic
chips; that evolved into ROM and then became part of the micro-
processor chip structure.

"Software" is instructions which can be altered by a user.

Users can't alter the Orion's instructions. They can use them or not.
They can load them into the transceiver or not.

Every
program for a PC or MAC is a "software."

The Orion is not a PC or a Mac.

The instructions or
program are stored locally on a disk ("hard" or "floppy") and may be
accessed at any time by the PC's disk operating system. Early
software was loaded by paper tape, then magnetic tape, then by
floppy, then by hard disk, finally by CD-ROM.

The Orion has no hard drive, no floppy disks, no paper or magnetic tape
and no CD-ROM drive.

A CD-ROM is not labelled either "firm" or "soft" since it contains
software which is not easily altered by the user...but parts of each
one can be rewritten if the content does not fill the CD. Software on
so-called "protected" media can be defeated but that takes a
modification of the CD writer program and probably some physical
changes in the CD drive itself.

Nope. I checked. There's no CD-ROM drive on the Orion.

The electronics industry has pretty well defined what is "firmware"
and what is "software" over the last three decades. Lately (in the
last half-dozen years) the appearance of the useable/programmable
microcontroller such as Microchip's "PIC" series has allowed a
re-programming of the stored program in the PIC's FLASH memory.
This is because Microchip's design (and other microcontrollers)
usually allow an extra package pin and internal registers/instruction-
set for such reprogramming. That isn't always the case with mass-
purchase special microcontrollers which may have the reprogramming
feature inaccessible to the user. Examples of that are various low-
cost appliances such as lawn sprinkler controllers or automatic coffee
makers. On those, the only thing alterable is some settings of
operation such as time. Settings sometimes go into FLASH memory
but the user cannot necessarily alter the main instruction program
set into the microcontroller.

I'm the user. I can't alter the program. I provided you with a link to
an accurate definition and one to Ten-Tec's site, the one with the big
blue letters reading "Firmware Upgrades".

Industry is going away from the absolute labels of "firmware" with
the new IC technologies. A microcontroller's program is simply called
"a program" if it can be loaded over the existing program or otherwise
changed by the user. Program content is still called "software"
because that has become normal in the wider group of computer and
consumer electronics users. Such software comes on CD-ROM,
floppy disks, but sometimes (for hobbyists) as "source code" for a
microcontroller's development program which can also load the
program into the micro. "Source code" is the human-readable
instructions of the program and the development program translates
that into microcontroller machine code for programming.

Industry is going away from labels like "firmware"? Ten-Tec is an
industry. Did you visit the site yet?

Anything that is "firm" in ware is not readily alterable by the user.
Anything that is "soft" in ware is readily alterable by the user.

I can't alter the program, Leonard. It must be firmware.

If a program or data is downloadable over a modem, it does so in
software form.

You'd better contact Ten-Tec and straighten those guys out!

You can call anything you want by whatever name you want but
it won't necessarily be understood by a distributor or parts seller.
There's several millions of folks involved in the worldwide electronics
industry (which includes radio) so, if you want some "firmware" that
can be downloaded over a modem, you'd best be VERY specific
in describing it.

Uhhhhh, I didn't have to describe the firmware upgrades for Ten-Tec,
Len.
They described them for me. They produce them. I get to use them (but
not alter them). They refer to them as firmware upgrades. I'm quite
content with that term. So the Ten-Tec folks are happy. I'm happy.
But, oh yes, you're not happy. Yet you have nothing to do with Ten-Tec
and don't own an Orion.

You can call a spade a hoe, but be prepared to talk to the NAACP.

I've never asked Ten-Tec about garden tools but both they and I are
quite amenable to discussing the firmware upgrades which they produce.
You are as uninvolved with this one as you are in amateur radio.

Dave K8MN