True, but with the FCC they could butcher it up so bad that the Novice
equivelant would be Extra no code.

Well, some FCC brearucrat botched the lifetime code credit thing. You
get lifetime
credit for passing a 5wpm, but not for 13 or 20. So we need to look
closely at
what they write up....


The point I have is the ARRL has proven beyond a doubt they are a bunch of
world class hypocrites. They trash ham radio with 'Incentive Licensing' to
FORCE hams to upgrade and 'improve'. Then 40 years later they totally
reverse themselves.

Me thinks that different people are in charge there now then back 40
years ago.

In article . net, "Dan/W4NTI"
w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com writes:

The point I have is the ARRL has proven beyond a doubt they are a bunch of
world class hypocrites.

And who elected the directors, Dan?

They trash ham radio with 'Incentive Licensing' to
FORCE hams to upgrade and 'improve'.

How did "incentive licensing" trash ham radio? btw, it was FCC's idea,
and they made it clear they weren't going to leave the system alone.

Then 40 years later they totally
reverse themselves.

Who? I don't think there's a single person at Hq or in the Board of Directors
today who was a League official of any kind back in the '60s. Most of the '60s
BoD and Hq folks are dead.

So it's a completely different bunch that reversed the policies.

73 de Jim, N2EY

(N2EY) wrote in message ...

The big mystery, though, is why FCC got all fired up back in 1958 and
started making noises about changing the system, only 5 years after they'd
done the Big Giveaway of 1953. My best guess is that they had a serious
case of Sputnik Fever.

Yep... and guess what, it is 2004 now, and the 'ol US of A is going
thru a serious case of "Sacred Vessel" fever.

We need to give the young people who are willing to learn about RF, a
decent place to learn in the ham ranks, with incentives that match the
requirements.

What changed? The Internet... Cell Phones... The WTC attack...
Chinese astronauts... Outsourced Engineering jobs to India... A
terminated fool-for-a-governer who allowed illegal aliens to sink the
California economy into a $36bln debt... A President who refuses to
guard our country's borders, and who now proposes to let illegal
aliens sink the USA economy (or is it just a Chess Gambit, designed to
pull a plank from the Dem's platform?).

The ARRL proposal is GOOD FOR AMERICA, and is the obvious right thing
to do.

You old naysaying farts talk about work ethic, and bemoan the lowering
of standards... But it is now clear that you simply don't want to
share frequencies (which are now all virtually unused!), nor
information (which is now all 10-15 years out of date!)... you just
want to sit on your asses and bitch.

This old fart likes Morse code up to a point, but it can NO LONGER be
the centerpiece of contention in Amateur Radio - we MUST move on. We
are DONE listening to this MORSE CODE BULL****! STOP IT! Get on with
your lives! Do SOMETHING positive. ANYTHING!

73 de Jim, N2EY

- Stewart (N0MHS)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MURS-OPEN

(stewart) wrote in message om...
(N2EY) wrote in message ...

The big mystery, though, is why FCC got all fired up back in 1958 and
started making noises about changing the system, only 5 years after they'd
done the Big Giveaway of 1953. My best guess is that they had a serious
case of Sputnik Fever.

Yep... and guess what, it is 2004 now, and the 'ol US of A is going
thru a serious case of "Sacred Vessel" fever.

What is "Sacred Vessel" fever, Stew? Never heard that one!

We need to give the young people who are willing to learn about RF, a
decent place to learn in the ham ranks, with incentives that match the
requirements.

Agreed! That's why we need different license levels, for one thing.

What changed? The Internet... Cell Phones... The WTC attack...
Chinese astronauts... Outsourced Engineering jobs to India... A
terminated fool-for-a-governer who allowed illegal aliens to sink the
California economy into a $36bln debt... A President who refuses to
guard our country's borders, and who now proposes to let illegal
aliens sink the USA economy (or is it just a Chess Gambit, designed to
pull a plank from the Dem's platform?).

What do any of those things have to do with the tests for a ham radio
license?

The ARRL proposal is GOOD FOR AMERICA, and is the obvious right thing
to do.

Parts of it are. Other parts are not so good - like the free upgrades.

btw, the proposed revamped Novice is nothing like your 'Colt' ideas.

You old naysaying

[expletive deleted]

talk about work ethic, and bemoan the lowering
of standards...

Are you talking about me?

But it is now clear that you simply don't want to
share frequencies (which are now all virtually unused!), nor
information (which is now all 10-15 years out of date!)... you just
want to sit on your

[expletives deleted]

None of that is true in my case, so you can't be talking about me.

This old

[expletive deleted]

likes Morse code up to a point, but it can NO LONGER be
the centerpiece of contention in Amateur Radio - we MUST move on.

We have, Stew. The code test is only one part of the debate.

Do you think giving all Techs a free upgrade to General, and all
Advanceds
a free upgrade to Extra would be good things? I don't.

We are DONE listening to this MORSE CODE

[expletive deleted]

STOP IT!

Sounds like you're telling people to shut up, Stew. Is that what civil
debate in a free society means to you?

Get on with
your lives! Do SOMETHING positive. ANYTHING!

We are. We're working towards a better license structure and tests for
same.
There's some disagreement about how to do that.

K0HB, Hans, has proposed a radically different license and test
structure here.
Lots of good debate on it. No words from you, though.

Now, as for getting "the young people who are willing to learn about
RF, a
decent place to learn in the ham ranks, with incentives that match the
requirements", think about the following:

The greatest period of growth in the number of US hams in the past 70
years was the 12 year period from 1951 to 1962. The number of US hams
grew from about 100,000 to almost 250,000 in that time, even though
amateur radio was bedeviled
by TVI and other problems. One of the prime reasons for that growth, I
think, was the introduction (in 1951) of the Novice license, with its
simple 20 question written test and 5 wpm code test. But that license
also gave very limited privileges and was only good for one year,
after which the new ham
had to upgrade to a permanent license or leave the ham bands. Many,
many of
those new hams were young people.

The young people today are not lazier or dumber than the young people
of those
times, so if we're not getting them like we did back then, the problem
must lie elsewhere.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"stewart" wrote in message
m...
(N2EY) wrote in message
...

The big mystery, though, is why FCC got all fired up back in 1958 and
started making noises about changing the system, only 5 years after
they'd
done the Big Giveaway of 1953. My best guess is that they had a serious
case of Sputnik Fever.

Yep... and guess what, it is 2004 now, and the 'ol US of A is going
thru a serious case of "Sacred Vessel" fever.

We need to give the young people who are willing to learn about RF, a
decent place to learn in the ham ranks, with incentives that match the
requirements.

What changed? The Internet... Cell Phones... The WTC attack...
Chinese astronauts... Outsourced Engineering jobs to India... A
terminated fool-for-a-governer who allowed illegal aliens to sink the
California economy into a $36bln debt... A President who refuses to
guard our country's borders, and who now proposes to let illegal
aliens sink the USA economy (or is it just a Chess Gambit, designed to
pull a plank from the Dem's platform?).

The ARRL proposal is GOOD FOR AMERICA, and is the obvious right thing
to do.

You old naysaying farts talk about work ethic, and bemoan the lowering
of standards... But it is now clear that you simply don't want to
share frequencies (which are now all virtually unused!), nor
information (which is now all 10-15 years out of date!)... you just
want to sit on your asses and bitch.

This old fart likes Morse code up to a point, but it can NO LONGER be
the centerpiece of contention in Amateur Radio - we MUST move on. We
are DONE listening to this MORSE CODE BULL****! STOP IT! Get on with
your lives! Do SOMETHING positive. ANYTHING!

73 de Jim, N2EY

- Stewart (N0MHS)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MURS-OPEN


Unused frequencies? Where are they? 15 and 10 during a sunspot minimum in
the middle of a day?

You sound like K1MAN claiming to have tuned 20 meters and found only two
active frequencies. Balderdash.

Try hooking up an antenna next time.

Dan/W4NTI

"Robert Casey" wrote in message
...





True, but with the FCC they could butcher it up so bad that the Novice
equivelant would be Extra no code.

Well, some FCC brearucrat botched the lifetime code credit thing. You
get lifetime
credit for passing a 5wpm, but not for 13 or 20. So we need to look
closely at
what they write up....


The point I have is the ARRL has proven beyond a doubt they are a bunch
of
world class hypocrites. They trash ham radio with 'Incentive Licensing'
to
FORCE hams to upgrade and 'improve'. Then 40 years later they totally
reverse themselves.

Me thinks that different people are in charge there now then back 40
years ago.






True, different folks. But of a similar mind set. They do what they want
WITHOUT the input of the alleged voting members. Same crap, different day.

Dan/W4NTI

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article . net,
"Dan/W4NTI"
w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com writes:

The point I have is the ARRL has proven beyond a doubt they are a bunch
of
world class hypocrites.

And who elected the directors, Dan?


I don't know who 'elected' the directors. I know I didn't.

They trash ham radio with 'Incentive Licensing' to
FORCE hams to upgrade and 'improve'.

How did "incentive licensing" trash ham radio? btw, it was FCC's idea,
and they made it clear they weren't going to leave the system alone.

It trashed ham radio by creating a CLASS system in our ranks, forcing
seperation by license class, making one feel superior and others thus
inferior. This was NOT THERE before Incentive Licensing.

The FCC did not propose Incentive Licensing. It was the ARRL back about
1963 or so. The FCC followed up on it and 'modified' it and it was
implemented beginning November of 1968.

Why do I know this? Because I read QST cover to cover while stateside in
the military. And when I went overseas I lost track due to military
activities. I returned to the USA in 1968. I operated on 7.010 and received
a notice of violation from the Cleveland Ohio FCC monitor. I was out of
band for my class of license.

Then 40 years later they totally
reverse themselves.

Who? I don't think there's a single person at Hq or in the Board of
Directors
today who was a League official of any kind back in the '60s. Most of the
'60s
BoD and Hq folks are dead.

So it's a completely different bunch that reversed the policies.

73 de Jim, N2EY

.. The FCC followed up on it and 'modified' it and it was
implemented beginning November of 1968.

Why do I know this? Because I read QST cover to cover while stateside in
the military. And when I went overseas I lost track due to military
activities. I returned to the USA in 1968. I operated on 7.010 and
received
a notice of violation from the Cleveland Ohio FCC monitor. I was out of
band for my class of license.

Amazing Jim ....I know there are people out there who do not believe you
regarding the notice. Your situation taken in context of what we hear today
on the bands is crazy by today's "standards" but it does show where we have
gone in this service ........unfortunately.

God Bless there Jim 73 Tom KI3R Belle Vernon Pa

In article . net, "Dan/W4NTI"
w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article . net,
"Dan/W4NTI"
w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com writes:

The point I have is the ARRL has proven beyond a doubt they are a bunch
of world class hypocrites.

And who elected the directors, Dan?

I don't know who 'elected' the directors. I know I didn't.

Every member with a license gets a ballot. If you didn't vote...

They trash ham radio with 'Incentive Licensing' to
FORCE hams to upgrade and 'improve'.

How did "incentive licensing" trash ham radio? btw, it was FCC's idea,
and they made it clear they weren't going to leave the system alone.

It trashed ham radio by creating a CLASS system in our ranks, forcing
seperation by license class, making one feel superior and others thus
inferior. This was NOT THERE before Incentive Licensing.

There were "class distinctions" before IL, Dan. I heard folks say, way back
then,
that Novices and Techs weren't "real hams".

People who look down on others because of license class usually look down for
other reasons too. There were the Collins owners who looked down on the Drake
folks, etc. The SSB-vs-AM stuff. The appliance ops vs, the homebrewers. DX vs.
traffic handlers, contesters vs. ragchewers, etc. That sort of thing comes from
the
person, not the system.

The FCC did not propose Incentive Licensing. It was the ARRL back about
1963 or so. The FCC followed up on it and 'modified' it and it was
implemented beginning November of 1968.

Why do I know this? Because I read QST cover to cover while stateside in
the military. And when I went overseas I lost track due to military
activities. I returned to the USA in 1968.

I was a ham back then, too, Dan, and I read the same mags.

We're not going to agree on who started it, but I think we can agree on these
things:

1) Whoever started it, the ARRL BoD pushed IL from 1963 onwards
2) What the FCC finally enacted in 1967 was very different from what
ARRL proposed in 1963
3) ARRL claimed that a majority of hams at the time supported IL. Others
claim a majority opposed it. Nobody *really* knows, just as nobody
knows what would have happened otherwise.
4) There's still a lot of bad feeling about the whole thing.
5) The present ARRL BoD and Hq folks are a completely different lot
than was there in the '60s

I operated on 7.010 and received
a notice of violation from the Cleveland Ohio FCC monitor. I was out of
band for my class of license.

And if the original 1963 ARRL proposal had been enacted, you would not have
been in violation.

Then 40 years later they totally
reverse themselves.

Who? I don't think there's a single person at Hq or in the Board of
Directors today who was a League official of any kind back in the
'60s. Most of the '60s BoD and Hq folks are dead.

So it's a completely different bunch that reversed the policies.

So what *should* be done, Dan? Do you support Hans' 2-level idea?

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article . net, "Dan/W4NTI"
w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article . net,
"Dan/W4NTI"
w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com writes:

The point I have is the ARRL has proven beyond a doubt they are a bunch
of world class hypocrites.

And who elected the directors, Dan?

I don't know who 'elected' the directors. I know I didn't.

Every member with a license gets a ballot. If you didn't vote...

They trash ham radio with 'Incentive Licensing' to
FORCE hams to upgrade and 'improve'.

How did "incentive licensing" trash ham radio? btw, it was FCC's idea,
and they made it clear they weren't going to leave the system alone.

It trashed ham radio by creating a CLASS system in our ranks, forcing
seperation by license class, making one feel superior and others thus
inferior. This was NOT THERE before Incentive Licensing.

There were "class distinctions" before IL, Dan. I heard folks say, way back
then,
that Novices and Techs weren't "real hams".

People who look down on others because of license class usually look down for
other reasons too. There were the Collins owners who looked down on the Drake
folks, etc. The SSB-vs-AM stuff. The appliance ops vs, the homebrewers. DX vs.
traffic handlers, contesters vs. ragchewers, etc. That sort of thing comes from
the
person, not the system.

The FCC did not propose Incentive Licensing. It was the ARRL back about
1963 or so. The FCC followed up on it and 'modified' it and it was
implemented beginning November of 1968.

Why do I know this? Because I read QST cover to cover while stateside in
the military. And when I went overseas I lost track due to military
activities. I returned to the USA in 1968.

I was a ham back then, too, Dan, and I read the same mags.

We're not going to agree on who started it, but I think we can agree on these
things:

1) Whoever started it, the ARRL BoD pushed IL from 1963 onwards
2) What the FCC finally enacted in 1967 was very different from what
ARRL proposed in 1963
3) ARRL claimed that a majority of hams at the time supported IL. Others
claim a majority opposed it. Nobody *really* knows, just as nobody
knows what would have happened otherwise.
4) There's still a lot of bad feeling about the whole thing.
5) The present ARRL BoD and Hq folks are a completely different lot
than was there in the '60s

I operated on 7.010 and received
a notice of violation from the Cleveland Ohio FCC monitor. I was out of
band for my class of license.

And if the original 1963 ARRL proposal had been enacted, you would not have
been in violation.

Then 40 years later they totally
reverse themselves.

Who? I don't think there's a single person at Hq or in the Board of
Directors today who was a League official of any kind back in the
'60s. Most of the '60s BoD and Hq folks are dead.

So it's a completely different bunch that reversed the policies.

So what *should* be done, Dan? Do you support Hans' 2-level idea?

73 de Jim, N2EY