"KØHB" wrote in message hlink.net...
"N2EY" wrote

1) Three classes of license: Basic, Intermediate, Full (change the
names if you don't like them - Third, Second, First, Novice,
General, Extra, whatever)

2) HF/MF bands split into subbands by mode and split again by
license class. Some bands (30 meters) may be split by mode only.
Bottom of each band is CW only, middle is CW/digital, top is
CW/phone/image. Percentage division about 20%/30%/50% (varies with
band). "Digital" includes digital voice modes if bandwidth under
1 kHz.


clip....clip.....clip

Sames old disincentive licensing scheme we've had since the 60's warmed over
a bit.

Yawn.

73, de Hans, K0HB


Sounds like what we've inherited today. Let's do something rational instead.

Brian

Subject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: (Brian)
Date: 12/25/03 5:01 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Sounds like what we've inherited today. Let's do something rational instead.

It will be interesting to see what YOU call "rational".

Steve, K4YZ

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...
Subject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: (Brian)
Date: 12/25/03 5:01 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Sounds like what we've inherited today. Let's do something rational instead.

It will be interesting to see what YOU call "rational".

Steve, K4YZ

Steve, you never pay attention, do you?

I've said it many, many times. One amateur radio service, one amateur
radio license. And maybe a learners permit as Hans suggests.

How many amateur radio services do we really need? How many do you
really want?

Subject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: (Brian)
Date: 12/26/03 3:01 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

How many amateur radio services do we really need? How many do you
really want?

One radio service with a TIERED license structure, Brain.

Obviously you do not concur with the FCC's "Basis and Purpose" of the
Amateur Radio Service, espeically those that establish the service as one of
"self-training".

A "single license" concept does not support that premise, Brain. A tiered
one does.

Was that too difficult for you?

Steve, K4YZ

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...
Subject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: (Brian)
Date: 12/26/03 3:01 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

How many amateur radio services do we really need? How many do you
really want?

One radio service with a TIERED license structure, Brain.

It is a "TIRED" radio structure. If you want Merit Badges, join the
BSA (or CAP). There is no need to have class distinctions between
hams artificially created by the FCC. Allow the ham to distinguish
himself or herself, based upon actual achievements.

Obviously you do not concur with the FCC's "Basis and Purpose" of the
Amateur Radio Service, espeically those that establish the service as one of
"self-training".

I do. -Espeically- "self-training." Obviously you believe that once
you obtain the "Amateur Extra" license that all learning must stop.
There is nothing more to be learned!

You couldn't be more wrong. Again.

A "single license" concept does not support that premise, Brain.

It does. Unless you believe that once you obtain Amateur Extra that
all learning stops because ther is nothing new to be learned.

A tiered one does.

No more than a one license ARS.

Was that too difficult for you?

Trying hard to keep your position at the top of the hill is sooo
transparent.

Steve, K4YZ

Allow the ham to show the world his real achievements, not some
government supported and forced Merit Badge system of false
achievements.

Brian, N0iMD

In article ,
(Brian) writes:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: (Brian)
Date: 12/26/03 3:01 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

How many amateur radio services do we really need? How many do you
really want?

One radio service with a TIERED license structure, Brain.

It is a "TIRED" radio structure.

Not at all!

It's a "tried and true" license structure.

When "incentive licensing" was re-established in 1968, there were about 250,000
US hams. Today there are about 680,000.

If you want Merit Badges, join the
BSA (or CAP).

License class is not a merit badge.

There is no need to have class distinctions between
hams artificially created by the FCC.

License class is not about class distinctions. It's about qualification for
privileges. In order to have full privileges, the knowledge to pass the Extra
is required. Same for the other classes. More knowledge, more privileges.

This doesn't mean an Extra knows everyhting there is to know about amateur
radio because they passed the tests. It just means that said Extra has
demonstrated the *minimum* knowledge required for full privileges.

Allow the ham to distinguish
himself or herself, based upon actual achievements.

Such as?

Obviously you do not concur with the FCC's "Basis and Purpose" of the
Amateur Radio Service, espeically those that establish the service as one
of "self-training".

I do.

Then why didn't you train yourself on practical antennas for HF?

-Espeically- "self-training." Obviously you believe that once
you obtain the "Amateur Extra" license that all learning must stop.
There is nothing more to be learned!

Nope, not at all. All it means to have passed the Extra is that said Extra has
demonstrated the *minimum* knowledge required for full privileges.

You couldn't be more wrong. Again.

A "single license" concept does not support that premise, Brain.

It does. Unless you believe that once you obtain Amateur Extra that
all learning stops because ther is nothing new to be learned.

See above.

A tiered one does.

No more than a one license ARS.

Depends on the license.

Was that too difficult for you?

Trying hard to keep your position at the top of the hill is sooo
transparent.

Allow the ham to show the world his real achievements, not some
government supported and forced Merit Badge system of false
achievements.

Such as what? Number of antennas not erected? Number of details forgotten about
an alleged DX operation?

You want one class of license, fine. Here's how to do it:

First, put aside the code test issue and concentrate on the writtens.

Second, close off the Tech and General to new issues.

Third, combine the existing Tech, General and Extra question pools into one
large question pool. Eliminate any questions that are specific to the Tech or
General license classes because they won't be issued new any more.

Fourth, a single new 120 question written exam would be generated from the
combined question pool. All new hams would have to pass this test to become
hams. All would get "Amateur Class" licenses with all privileges.

Fifth, all existing hams would have their license terms automatically extended
to 10 years beyond the date on which the new rules took effect. No renewals.

Sixth, all existing hams would have to retest using the new "Amateur Class"
test within the next 10 years or leave the air.

At the end of 10 years we'd all have the same license class and all have passed
the same test to get it.

Why not?

(N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Brian) writes:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: (Brian)
Date: 12/26/03 3:01 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

How many amateur radio services do we really need? How many do you
really want?

One radio service with a TIERED license structure, Brain.

It is a "TIRED" radio structure.

Not at all!

It's a "tried and true" license structure.

When "incentive licensing" was re-established in 1968, there were about 250,000
US hams. Today there are about 680,000.

But CW testing was implemented to limit the number of amateurs, not
grow the number. How much higher do you think it would have grown to
if ...

If you want Merit Badges, join the
BSA (or CAP).

License class is not a merit badge.

Not even when you puff out your chest and declare, "I'm a 20wpm
Extra!"

There is no need to have class distinctions between
hams artificially created by the FCC.

License class is not about class distinctions.

Are you positively sure abaout that?

It's about qualification for
privileges. In order to have full privileges, the knowledge to pass the Extra
is required. Same for the other classes. More knowledge, more privileges.

Is that like when the General licence holder had all priveleges?

And when the Tech (General written w/o 13wpm Code) had VHF only.

This doesn't mean an Extra knows everyhting there is to know about amateur
radio because they passed the tests. It just means that said Extra has
demonstrated the *minimum* knowledge required for full privileges.

Then tell Steve about self-training. Even in the scheme of incentive
licensing, the lowest and the highest licensed individuals still have
a lot to learn.

Allow the ham to distinguish
himself or herself, based upon actual achievements.

Such as?

Cop McDonald - SSTV.

Obviously you do not concur with the FCC's "Basis and Purpose" of the
Amateur Radio Service, espeically those that establish the service as one
of "self-training".

I do.

Then why didn't you train yourself on practical antennas for HF?

Oh, I have. What I haven't done is train myself on EVERY practical
antenna for HF, especially those antennas applicable to low visual
impact in a restricted neighborhood, and cannot (or rather shouldn't
be placed against) a house sheathed in aluminum siding. So I looked
outside my personal breadth of knowledge for something new, and ran
into you and Brian Kelly. What a pair.

Some would call that self-training, seeking information and knowledge
outside ones own experience.

-Espeically- "self-training." Obviously you believe that once
you obtain the "Amateur Extra" license that all learning must stop.
There is nothing more to be learned!

Nope, not at all. All it means to have passed the Extra is that said Extra has
demonstrated the *minimum* knowledge required for full privileges.

You and Steve have a lot in common - being wrong.

For Steve's assertion to be true, there would have to be a license
class above Amateur Extra, and when a person achieved that, to fufill
Steve's vision "self-training" there would have to be another level
above that. And so on.

I.E., a merit badge system.

You couldn't be more wrong. Again.

A "single license" concept does not support that premise, Brain.

It does. Unless you believe that once you obtain Amateur Extra that
all learning stops because ther is nothing new to be learned.

See above.

See below your see above.

A tiered one does.

No more than a one license ARS.

Depends on the license.

Amateur License.

Was that too difficult for you?

Trying hard to keep your position at the top of the hill is sooo
transparent.

Allow the ham to show the world his real achievements, not some
government supported and forced Merit Badge system of false
achievements.

Such as what? Number of antennas not erected? Number of details forgotten about
an alleged DX operation?

Again you try to make this personal. I've built HF and VHF antennas,
some from a box, some from a reel of wire and bamboo poles. And I've
operated on HF from Nebraska, ROK, Guam, Illinois, Somalia, Florida,
and Ohio, in that order.

Just don't be so jealous. You could have operated from all those
places, too, if you have been in the service with all the other
blessings that that entails.

Besides, I don't see your name behind "Invented SSTV."

So, what mode, what l/o circuit, or even soldering technique has your
name on it?

How many JOTA stations have you hosted?

How many intro-license classes have you hosted?

How many VE sessions have you hosted?

Certainly you've done something other than DX and belittle you fellow
hams.

Not all hams will distinguish themselves - you certainly haven't. So
let them just be hams, like 99% of all the other Extra class
licensees.

You want one class of license, fine. Here's how to do it:

First, put aside the code test issue and concentrate on the writtens.

No. Bury the code test.

Second, close off the Tech and General to new issues.

What? No learners permit?

Third, combine the existing Tech, General and Extra question pools into one
large question pool. Eliminate any questions that are specific to the Tech or
General license classes because they won't be issued new any more.

Such as operating priveleges?

Fourth, a single new 120 question written exam would be generated from the
combined question pool. All new hams would have to pass this test to become
hams. All would get "Amateur Class" licenses with all privileges.

Just leave out "Class" and call it "Amateur License."

Fifth, all existing hams would have their license terms automatically extended
to 10 years beyond the date on which the new rules took effect. No renewals.

Sixth, all existing hams would have to retest using the new "Amateur Class"
test within the next 10 years or leave the air.

You could even ask to have the pools FOUO, and/or increase the size to
12,000 questions. Just make the subject matter relavent.

At the end of 10 years we'd all have the same license class and all have passed
the same test to get it.

Why not?

Why not, Indeed?

Deal.

You run it up the flag and I'll support it, perhaps with Han's caveat
of a non-renewable learner's permit, limited by power and scope, but
not mode.

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Brian) writes:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: (Brian)
Date: 12/26/03 3:01 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

How many amateur radio services do we really need? How many do you
really want?

One radio service with a TIERED license structure, Brain.

It is a "TIRED" radio structure.

Not at all!

It's a "tried and true" license structure.

When "incentive licensing" was re-established in 1968, there were about
250,000
US hams. Today there are about 680,000.

If you want Merit Badges, join the
BSA (or CAP).

License class is not a merit badge.

There is no need to have class distinctions between
hams artificially created by the FCC.

License class is not about class distinctions. It's about qualification
for
privileges. In order to have full privileges, the knowledge to pass the
Extra
is required. Same for the other classes. More knowledge, more privileges.

But, as you and I have agred before, the privileges gained do NOT relate to
the additional knowledge needed for the higher license class.
What is the technical competency difference between an Extra
operating SSB with a TS440 in the 80m Extra voice segment vs a General
operating the same rig at say 3.885Mhz?

This doesn't mean an Extra knows everyhting there is to know about amateur
radio because they passed the tests. It just means that said Extra has
demonstrated the *minimum* knowledge required for full privileges.

The problem, again one we agreed on before, is that granting
additional frequency spectrum doesn't rationally flow from the
additional knowledge required for the higher license class (e.g.
Extra vs General, General vs Tech.

Allow the ham to distinguish
himself or herself, based upon actual achievements.

Such as?

Good question.

Obviously you do not concur with the FCC's "Basis and Purpose" of the
Amateur Radio Service, espeically those that establish the service as
one
of "self-training".

I do.

Then why didn't you train yourself on practical antennas for HF?

-Espeically- "self-training." Obviously you believe that once
you obtain the "Amateur Extra" license that all learning must stop.
There is nothing more to be learned!

Nope, not at all. All it means to have passed the Extra is that said
Extra has
demonstrated the *minimum* knowledge required for full privileges.

True under the current scheme of licensing for the USA. It could
be changed and that is the point raised in this discussion. Should
it be changed and if so, how?

You couldn't be more wrong. Again.

A "single license" concept does not support that premise, Brain.

It does. Unless you believe that once you obtain Amateur Extra that
all learning stops because ther is nothing new to be learned.

See above.

A tiered one does.

No more than a one license ARS.

Depends on the license.

Was that too difficult for you?

Trying hard to keep your position at the top of the hill is sooo
transparent.

Allow the ham to show the world his real achievements, not some
government supported and forced Merit Badge system of false
achievements.

Such as what? Number of antennas not erected? Number of details forgotten
about
an alleged DX operation?

You want one class of license, fine. Here's how to do it:

First, put aside the code test issue and concentrate on the writtens.

Second, close off the Tech and General to new issues.

Third, combine the existing Tech, General and Extra question pools into
one
large question pool. Eliminate any questions that are specific to the Tech
or
General license classes because they won't be issued new any more.

Fourth, a single new 120 question written exam would be generated from the
combined question pool. All new hams would have to pass this test to
become
hams. All would get "Amateur Class" licenses with all privileges.

Fifth, all existing hams would have their license terms automatically
extended
to 10 years beyond the date on which the new rules took effect. No
renewals.

Never happen.

Sixth, all existing hams would have to retest using the new "Amateur
Class"
test within the next 10 years or leave the air.

Never happen. You want a way to kill ham radio, then that'd
do it in a heartbeat...a 10 year heartbeat at the longest.

At the end of 10 years we'd all have the same license class and all have
passed
the same test to get it.

At the end of 10 years we'd have no ham service of any consequence.
Retesting does NOT get any support at all. A handful of people
propose retesting (I oppose retesting)...but that is all. If 1968 incentive
licensing drove some folks away, you can bet the "all existing
hams would need to be retested" will certainly do it.

Why not?

Please tell me any example of something you do in life that
requires anyone to be knowledge retested...other than
something in the medical field such as CPR recertification.

Cheers and happy new year.
Bill K2UNK

(Brian) wrote in message . com...
(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...
Subject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: (Brian)
Date: 12/26/03 3:01 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

How many amateur radio services do we really need? How many do you
really want?

One radio service with a TIERED license structure, Brain.

It is a "TIRED" radio structure. If you want Merit Badges, join the
BSA (or CAP). There is no need to have class distinctions between
hams artificially created by the FCC. Allow the ham to distinguish
himself or herself, based upon actual achievements.

It is only "tired" if you don't have the cajones to keep up,
Brain.

It's not about "class distinctions", unless that's all you fixate
on, Brain. It's about meeting the requirements of the Basis and
Purpose of Part 97, and meeting Congress' expectation that in return
for our generous allocations.

By the way, our allocations are by no means guaranteed. Too bad
people like you can't see past your own selfishness to see that.

Obviously you do not concur with the FCC's "Basis and Purpose" of the
Amateur Radio Service, espeically those that establish the service as one of
"self-training".

I do. -Espeically- "self-training." Obviously you believe that once
you obtain the "Amateur Extra" license that all learning must stop.
There is nothing more to be learned!

I don't know where you got that "obviously" stuff, Brain, except
to make it up.

I've very clearly stated on several occassions that my learning
curve didn't stop with my Extra.

Please stop being arrogant.

You couldn't be more wrong. Again.

I'm not the one who just made a very obvious assumption based
upon a personal prejudice, Brain.

A "single license" concept does not support that premise, Brain.

It does. Unless you believe that once you obtain Amateur Extra that
all learning stops because there is nothing new to be learned.

Ok, MinnieLennie...Here again is yet another opportunity for you
to "show (me)up" by providing a quote FROM ME wherein I stated
anything even remotely like "...all learning stops with the Amateur
Extra test".

A tiered one does.

No more than a one license ARS.

Then this proves you ignorant of the facts, Brain.

There is not a single aspect of our lives that suggests a
"one-size-fits-all" ANYTHING works, Brainless. Our educational
system, our society in general, religions, politics, etc.

Unless you can provide some tangible examples that contradict
that?

Was that too difficult for you?

Trying hard to keep your position at the top of the hill is sooo
transparent.

I don't have a hill to be on top of, Brain.

That you percieve that I do means you have an inferiorty problem
that keeps you in a subjugated position. Deal with it, Brain.

Allow the ham to show the world his real achievements, not some
government supported and forced Merit Badge system of false
achievements.

You are truly lost, Brain....wrapped up in symbology, rhetoric
and the need to denigrate and demean anything you cannot or will not
endeavor to understand or accept.

Pity you.

Steve, K4YZ

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message om...
(Brian) wrote in message . com...
(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...
Subject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: (Brian)
Date: 12/26/03 3:01 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

How many amateur radio services do we really need? How many do you
really want?

One radio service with a TIERED license structure, Brain.

It is a "TIRED" radio structure. If you want Merit Badges, join the
BSA (or CAP). There is no need to have class distinctions between
hams artificially created by the FCC. Allow the ham to distinguish
himself or herself, based upon actual achievements.

It is only "tired" if you don't have the cajones to keep up,
Brain.

A little chest puffery?

Natch.

It's not about "class distinctions", unless that's all you fixate
on, Brain. It's about meeting the requirements of the Basis and
Purpose of Part 97, and meeting Congress' expectation that in return
for our generous allocations.

Did that a long time ago.

By the way, our allocations are by no means guaranteed. Too bad
people like you can't see past your own selfishness to see that.

Too bad people like you can't see it. Too busy being self-important.

Obviously you do not concur with the FCC's "Basis and Purpose" of the
Amateur Radio Service, espeically those that establish the service as one of
"self-training".

I do. -Espeically- "self-training." Obviously you believe that once
you obtain the "Amateur Extra" license that all learning must stop.
There is nothing more to be learned!

I don't know where you got that "obviously" stuff, Brain, except
to make it up.

I've very clearly stated on several occassions that my learning
curve didn't stop with my Extra.

Yet your climb up the ARS ladder did. Why, with a one license ARS
would learning stop???

Please stop being arrogant.

Rational argument is arrogance?

You couldn't be more wrong. Again.

I'm not the one who just made a very obvious assumption based
upon a personal prejudice, Brain.

State the assumption.

State the personal prejudice.

A "single license" concept does not support that premise, Brain.

It does. Unless you believe that once you obtain Amateur Extra that
all learning stops because there is nothing new to be learned.

Ok, MinnieLennie...Here again is yet another opportunity for you
to "show (me)up" by providing a quote FROM ME wherein I stated
anything even remotely like "...all learning stops with the Amateur
Extra test".

Why, if learning doesn't stop with the Amateur Extra exam, would it
stop with a one exam ARS?

This is a test in rational discussion. Do try your best to pass it.

A tiered one does.

No more than a one license ARS.

Then this proves you ignorant of the facts, Brain.

Enlighten me.

There is not a single aspect of our lives that suggests a
"one-size-fits-all" ANYTHING works, Brainless. Our educational
system, our society in general, religions, politics, etc.

Stebe, countless garments at the store claim "one size fits all."

Unless you can provide some tangible examples that contradict
that?

Pantyhose.

Was that too difficult for you?

Trying hard to keep your position at the top of the hill is sooo
transparent.

I don't have a hill to be on top of, Brain.

More like piled higher and deeper.

That you percieve that I do means you have an inferiorty problem
that keeps you in a subjugated position. Deal with it, Brain.

You're much easier to deal with.

Allow the ham to show the world his real achievements, not some
government supported and forced Merit Badge system of false
achievements.

You are truly lost, Brain....wrapped up in symbology, rhetoric
and the need to denigrate and demean anything you cannot or will not
endeavor to understand or accept.

Pity you.

The King of Denigration has spoken.