"SFTV_troy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Yes true. By the way, DX isn't dead. It moved to the internet, where
you can hear stations as far away as London, Russia, Australia, et
cetera. I hear more distant stations now than I ever did as a
teenager.


some larger (orphaning millions of listeners that don't live inside city
grade contours of broadcast stations, and lose their ability to receive
stations
that they were previously easily able to receive)

The analog FM is still there. So too are the websites, so rural
listeners can stream them off the internet. Heck, I listen to
stations in my hometown, and I'm currently 1000 miles away, just via
streaming.

Streaming is not DX. Also, where do you think these rural listeners are
going to get broadband internet access that would allow them to listen to
these streams? Ain't gonna happen, because nobody is supplying broadband
outside of cities. (hint: satellite internet doesn't handle streaming audio
for beans, since the backhaul is still via telephone modem, and the lag
doesn't allow for enough FEC... )

to larger still (the obsoleting of
literally hundred of millions (possibly even billions) of
currently useful devices (analog TV's (especially portables),
analog radios, turntables, cassette decks, ad inf.).


Yes. Just like when we abandoned horse-drawn carriages, steam
engines, and riverboats. It's called progress... moving from old
technologies to new technologies. Movign from slow or inefficient
technologies to faster, economical technologies.

BTW analog TVs are not dead. I've got a digital tuner attached to
mine, which means the set will die a natural death of old age. It's
not been wasted.



Those things were not abandoned wholesale or all at once. They were phased
out by attrition, nobody forced anyone to buy a horseless carriage. Plus,
there are still working steamboats and horse drawn carriages in use today.

Try connecting one of those set-top boxes to your portable TV at the beach,
or out camping.. I am not happy (nor is anyone else in the situation) with
having a relatively expensive pocket portable TV obsoleted and useless.

And has anyone considered the long term
ecological repercussions of having to dispose
of all these millions of now useless devices?

Trivial compared to the amount of trash generated from food
packaging. By volume I'd estimate a thrown-away VCR or Cassette
player is less than 1% the volume generated by food boxes, plastic
wrap, and containers.



Digital radio is an answer to a problem that doesn't exist,
and is/will create(ing) more problems than it solves.

Actually there is a problem. Young adults and teens are demanding
more variety, and analog radio doesn't have room to grow to meet that
demand (no room to add stations).


Most young people I know don't listen to radio at all. It's not in their
line of thinking. They listen to their mp3 players when they listen at all.
They couldn't care less about radio, and adding more stations won't change
that. Besides, have you checked out what kids listen to now? Almost 100%
rap/hiphop/urban. They don't want choice... they want conformity (as youth
always have.. not with the adult world, but among their peers).

"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...


Streaming is not DX. Also, where do you think these rural listeners are
going to get broadband internet access that would allow them to listen to
these streams? Ain't gonna happen, because nobody is supplying broadband
outside of cities.

It's happening. WiMax.

Try connecting one of those set-top boxes to your portable TV at the
beach, or out camping.. I am not happy (nor is anyone else in the
situation) with having a relatively expensive pocket portable TV obsoleted
and useless.

Truly, how many people use portable TVs? Most portable TV viewing is on
cellular phones, the new iPod, etc.

Most young people I know don't listen to radio at all. It's not in their
line of thinking. They listen to their mp3 players when they listen at
all. They couldn't care less about radio, and adding more stations won't
change that. Besides, have you checked out what kids listen to now?
Almost 100% rap/hiphop/urban. They don't want choice... they want
conformity (as youth always have.. not with the adult world, but among
their peers).

There you go again. There are various kinds or blends of hip hop and
rhythmic CHR. Some markets have two or three stations in the broad genre,
because it has variants, and the proponents of one kind don't like the
other.

Young people (12-24) listen to all kinds of things, and that group is
definitely not composed of sheeple....

Using diverse New York, the top radio stations a

WHTZ CHR (what used to be Top 40)
WWPR Hip Hop mostly Black appeal
WQHT Hip Hop, mostly Hispanic appeal
WCAA Reggaeton (Latin rhythmic) and tropical
WSKQ Latin Tropical
WBLS R&B / Urban
WKTU Rhythmic / light dance
WPAT Spanish AC
WLTW Soft AC
WQBU Regional Mexican
WRKS Urban
WWFS Hot AC
WAXQ Rock

So you can not say that all listen to urban or hip hop stations... not even
30% of the listening by 12-24 in NY is to such stations.

There is no such place name in California as Ventura.I know what the
place name is, but I done forgot it at the moment.Telamon, tell all them
cutesy pie gals old hansom Larry over here in Mississippi Loves them.
cuhulin

Brenda Ann wrote:


"

Streaming is not DX. Also, where do you think these rural listeners are
going to get broadband internet access that would allow them to listen to
these streams? Ain't gonna happen, because nobody is supplying broadband
outside of cities. (hint: satellite internet doesn't handle streaming
audio for beans, since the backhaul is still via telephone modem, and the
lag doesn't allow for enough FEC... )


Can you explain "backhaul is still via telephone modem"?

craigm wrote:
Brenda Ann wrote:


"

Streaming is not DX. Also, where do you think these rural listeners are
going to get broadband (hint: satellite internet doesn't handle streaming
audio for beans, since the backhaul is still via telephone modem, and the
lag doesn't allow for enough FEC... )

Can you explain "backhaul is still via telephone modem"?

Computers operate in two directions during internet access. Typically
the phone line or DSL or cable line flows both down & up across the
same wire, but not satellite:

DOWN - from the satellite
UP - via the phone line

So the down channel is broadband, while the up channel is narrowband.
The thing Brenda forgot is that virtually all of these AM websites are
optimized for phone line usage. I don't need broadband to DX to
California or the UK or Australia via my 56K modem.

In article ,
craigm wrote:

Brenda Ann wrote:


"

Streaming is not DX. Also, where do you think these rural listeners are
going to get broadband internet access that would allow them to listen to
these streams? Ain't gonna happen, because nobody is supplying broadband
outside of cities. (hint: satellite internet doesn't handle streaming
audio for beans, since the backhaul is still via telephone modem, and the
lag doesn't allow for enough FEC... )


Can you explain "backhaul is still via telephone modem"?

You make requests or upload files / data over the phone line. The
download path to you is the satellite dish. If you are surfing the net
your requests and upstream data are small and the downloads such as
movie trailers, video, and streaming media are high bit rate.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Telamon wrote:

In article ,
craigm wrote:

Can you explain "backhaul is still via telephone modem"?

You make requests or upload files / data over the phone line. The
download path to you is the satellite dish. If you are surfing the net
your requests and upstream data are small and the downloads such as
movie trailers, video, and streaming media are high bit rate.


.... and ...

SFTV_troy wrote:


Computers operate in two directions during internet access. Typically
the phone line or DSL or cable line flows both down & up across the
same wire, but not satellite:

DOWN - from the satellite
UP - via the phone line

So the down channel is broadband, while the up channel is narrowband.
The thing Brenda forgot is that virtually all of these AM websites are
optimized for phone line usage. I don't need broadband to DX to
California or the UK or Australia via my 56K modem.


Well, Wildblue and Hughesnet are the two major providers of satellite access
in the US and they both use two way satellite connections. They do not use
the phone.

Both offer higher upload speeds than a conventional phone line can provide.

Makes one wonder what else you don't understand.

In article ,
craigm wrote:

Telamon wrote:

In article ,
craigm wrote:

Can you explain "backhaul is still via telephone modem"?

You make requests or upload files / data over the phone line. The
download path to you is the satellite dish. If you are surfing the net
your requests and upstream data are small and the downloads such as
movie trailers, video, and streaming media are high bit rate.


... and ...

SFTV_troy wrote:


Computers operate in two directions during internet access. Typically
the phone line or DSL or cable line flows both down & up across the
same wire, but not satellite:

DOWN - from the satellite
UP - via the phone line

So the down channel is broadband, while the up channel is narrowband.
The thing Brenda forgot is that virtually all of these AM websites are
optimized for phone line usage. I don't need broadband to DX to
California or the UK or Australia via my 56K modem.


Well, Wildblue and Hughesnet are the two major providers of satellite access
in the US and they both use two way satellite connections. They do not use
the phone.

Both offer higher upload speeds than a conventional phone line can provide.

Makes one wonder what else you don't understand.

The systems I looked at a few years ago worked as I described. If you
can now get up link and down link satellite then the up link bit rates
can improve. Ping times will still be larger compared to DSL due to the
propagation time to from the 22K miles away bird.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

craigm wrote:
SFTV_troy wrote:

DOWN - from the satellite
UP - via the phone line
So the down channel is broadband, while the up channel is narrowband.

Well, Wildblue and Hughesnet are the two major providers of satellite access
in the US and they both use two way satellite connections. They do not use
the phone. Both offer higher upload speeds than a conventional phone.

Makes one wonder what else you don't understand.


(1) Don't be rude & insulting.

(2) I looked-up two-way satellite communication on wikipedia before I
posted, but it said the upstream is limited to only 2.4 kbit/s.
That's a LOT slower than a 56k phone line connection.

(3) If wikipedia is wrong, please provide a citation so I can update
it. Back-up your "higher upload speeds" claim.

SFTV_troy wrote:


craigm wrote:
SFTV_troy wrote:

DOWN - from the satellite
UP - via the phone line
So the down channel is broadband, while the up channel is narrowband.

Well, Wildblue and Hughesnet are the two major providers of satellite
access in the US and they both use two way satellite connections. They do
not use the phone. Both offer higher upload speeds than a conventional
phone.

Makes one wonder what else you don't understand.


(1) Don't be rude & insulting.

Your posts show you don't have experience with what you are talking about.
If you don't like that being pointed out, too bad.


(2) I looked-up two-way satellite communication on wikipedia before I
posted, but it said the upstream is limited to only 2.4 kbit/s.
That's a LOT slower than a 56k phone line connection.


(3) If wikipedia is wrong, please provide a citation so I can update
it. Back-up your "higher upload speeds" claim.


Go to the Wildblue or Hughesnet web sites. You'll find they offer 128kbit or
higher upload rates.