In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

I think that the numbers of hams will continue to
decrease until we are taken out of the limbo we have been in for some
time now.

What "limbo", Mike? We've had a class of US ham license with no code test
for
more than 13-1/2 years now. The maximum code test speed has been 5 wpm
for more
than 4 years now - and for a decade before that, medical waivers were
available.

Limbo is when a prospective ham thinks that possibly he or she can get
on HF simply by waiting a few months and not having to take any Morse
code test.

OK. But would that really keep a lot of folks from getting any license at all?

It would seem to me that the sensible thing to do in that situation, were
someone that averse to the 5 wpm code test, would be to pass the Tech and
General writtens. Maybe toss in the Extra written too. They'd have a Tech
license and General and/or Extra CSCE. Then, when the code test went away,
they'd be all set to go. Spend the waiting time setting up a station, antenna,
etc.

Let's compare the situation to when the Governor of PA had the temporary
tax exemption on computers. I think it lasted something like a week.
Guess what happened to computer sales at the local Circuit City, Best
Buy, etc. the week or two before the exemption. When I went in and
looked around, the sales clerk at one store even told me to hold off
until next week.

Seems like a direct comparison to me.

Not really. We *knew* the tax exemption was coming, and it was only a week or
two away. And we knew the exemption would only last a week or so.

It made sense for folks who were contemplating a computer purchase to simply
wait a week or two.

Here in southeast PA, some folks simply drive to Delaware for big taxable
purchases that are easily portable. Computers, hamgear, cameras, etc. The big
question is whether the savings offset the driving cost.

Yet our businesses survive.

The code test may or may not go away in the next few years/months/decades.
The
written exams may change similarly. The various bands may change as well.

I don't think that's the problem.

The prospective amateur has *no* idea at this time if the Morse code
requirement will be kept, how long it will be kept if it is, and when it
will go away if it is discarded.

So? Someone who really wants to be a ham will do what is necessary to pass
the tests at the time.

I'd temper that. If I thought that the Morse requirement would go away
in say, 6 months, I would have waited.

Sure - but that's if you knew for sure. At this point we don't even have an
NPRM.

ARRL predicted 2 years. It's been over 14 months since WRC 2003 ended.

And most people do not expect a long time to pass before it goes away.
I know some people were incredulous when I gave my time to expiry (if
any) in that pool we had a while back.

I reposted the list/pool. Look how many people were wrong - including me.

In as much as most people will not imagine that the changes to come will
take as long as as the will likely take, the net effect will be
potential Hams sitting and waiting for the Morse code to go away.

Maybe some will. I think most interested folks will simply learn enough to
pass the tests and get on with it.

Its certainly what I would do if I were thinking about getting a
license at this point.

But it's not what you did when you got started.

Some things operating there.

There was no code elimination horizon.

Sure there was. NCI was pushing for it, weren't they? WRC 2003 was on the way.

I'm skeptical enough and have enough experience that I knew it was going
to be a long time coming

I wanted to get on HF pretty badly.

I'm not afraid of learning something (even though it was admittedly very
hard for me)

You are not alone. Or even rare, despite what some naysayers would have us
believe.

And would you not get *any* license until the code test went away, or would
you just hold off from upgrading?

Hard to say. When I originally got my license, I was only planning on
being a Technician, and I was thinking about how to apply Amateur radio
to my other hobby, Amateur astronomy. I really didn't have much interest
in HF at all! then after a field day where I was allowed to operate, I
was hooked. So my experience is likely not typical.

I disagree!

A lot of new hams come into amateur radio by such indirect routes. In my youth,
many hams came from the ranks of SWLs.

In fact, if it
wasn't for the Technician no-code license, I probably wouldn't be a Ham
now. (to my great loss!!)

See? You would have just held off upgrading.

But we don't see that happening. The total number of Tech and Tech Pluses is
declining.

Whatever is done should be done and done quickly. That said, there is a
mile of difference between "should" and "will". I still stand by my
original prediction made some time ago.

Back in 1989-1990 we were told that a nocodetest ham license was
"absolutely
needed for growth". And when it became a reality, we got some short-term
growth
for a few years.

Then we were told that the code test had to go for the same reason - and it
was
dropped to 5 wpm for all classes in 2000. We got some short-term growth for
a
few years - now we're back *below* the level before the restructuring.

It isn't the code or lack of it. It is the limbo state of not knowing
what is going to happen.

I don't think changes will make for growth, except in the short term.

I think it's lack of publicity, plus competition from other activities, plus
the loss of "honeydew hams" to cell phones and FRS/GMRS. Plus antenna
limitations, RFI, ...

I was a ham way back in 1967, when they said incentive licensing would
"kill
amateur radio". There were about 250,000 US hams back then. Yet in the 10
years
after incentive licensing took full effect (1969-1979 or thereabouts) the
number of US hams grew by about 100,000, despite poor economic conditions,
much
less accessible testing, waiting period for Extra, no code waivers and a
code
test for all hams. And no internet or computer-based training methods.

Of course. Way too much emphasis is put on all the modern conveniences

and the numbers of Hams.

A lot of folks are looking for a challenge, not a giveaway.

I wouldn't care if I had to take the test,
writing on the back of a shovel with a piece of limestone, while Heidi
Klum was trying to distract me. How's that for working her into the
thread! ;^)

In my case it was Heidi and Jan Smithers fighting over me....

Jim, do you still have those dates?

Posted in a new thread.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
William wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
William wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
William wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
William wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
William wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:

btw, thinking of departed rrap folk, it occurred to me that I probably hold the
record for most rrapper's QSO'd. Anybody beat this list?:

K8MN
W4NTI
K0HB
AC6XG
K3LT
K4YZ
W3RV
W6RCA
W0EX
WA2SI

73 de Jim, N2EY

I think you have the record. I've worked four from the list and you.

Dave K8MN

You've worked me a couple of times.

I worked you as K8MN? Nope, not even on SSB. NIL.

Then it must have been another David Heil or a slim with the same name
and QSL manager. Sorry to have mentioned it.

I do not and have not used a QSL manager for my operations as K8MN.

Who is K8MN? I'm talking about David Heil. Ever heard of him? Does
he use a QSL Manager?

Your cutesy-stupid routine can run only so long, "William".

Hello???

Hello, yourself. Any ideas yet on the mystery question: "Who is K8MN"?

Yes. He's a jerk.

I'm certain that it appears that way to a guy such as yourself. Yet you
asked, "Who is K8MN?"

Is that anything like your cutesy-stupid "CQ Magazine as a Membership
Organization" routine?

Maybe you can explain another way that to "rejoin" CQ Magazine.

So you're going to run your cutesy-stupid routine into the ground?

"Strike Twoooo"

Hi, hi!

There is what you write and then there is what you think you write.

Take your time in digesting the material. Soak it all up. Absorb it.

No thanks. Your material is toxic.

It really just makes you feel weak until all of your "cutesy-stupid
genes" have been altered.

Ooooh. How long did it take you?

To write it? Not very long.

I've never sent a "David Heil" QSL.

Given that you have a QSL Manager, I suppose that is possible.

Never one, with or without a QSL manager. Have you sent QSL's using
your name rather than a callsign?

Do your cards not have you name on them?

Sure they do, in small letters. Nobody QSOs "Dave Heil", they work
"K8MN" or "5H3US". "A W4MPY QSL" is also printed on my QSL cards too.
I'm sure that nobody is under the impression that they have worked
"W4MPY".

Just by coincidence, my QSL cards have both my name and my callsign on
them!

There's a step in the right direction. I'm happy for you.

Plus the other usual stuff like my address, county, grid square, etc.

You're coming right along.

All my operations have taken place
from a given spot with a given callsign.

Try mobile operation sometime, Oh Greatest of Hams!

I do that about five days per week. "K8MN/M, Marshall County, West
Virginia" or "K8MN/mobile, Belmont County, Ohio" or "K8MN/mobile in
Wheeling, West Virginia" all work just fine.

Then you shouldn't give misleading information such as, "All my
operations have taken place from a given spot..."

It isn't misleading at all. At any point in any QSO, I'm in a given
spot.
Sometimes the car is moving. Sometimes it is not. Stick around and all
these great mysteries will be revealed.

Another ham on rrap would have called you a liar for that.

No other did. You've as much as done so though.

How about a lengthy yarn about your operation as T5/Brian?

How about a ditty on "how to" on snagging rare, out-of-band, French
Hams on 6M?

I've never operated using my name as a callsign.

I couldn't imagine it. Who would do that?

From your recent posts, I rather imagined that you might.

My operations from any
country on any band, when working any Frenchmen have been totally within
regulations of the applicable governing authority.

Good thing, too.

Yeah, I think it is a good thing. I heed the regulations of the country
in which I operate. It is up to other ops to do the same. None of
those involved is responsible to you.

Sheesh! I think you are more indignant about working me on HF than
you were about me leaving you off of the A1A Op list. Doesn't matter.
You'll always find something to become indignant about.

There is no A1A Op list. You screwed up when you first posted the
material. You told untruths

I made a mistake.

You made several.

when you recently brought up the topic. You
acted as if you didn't believe I could unearth the original post (that
must've cost me ten or twenty seconds) and you've gotten the name of the
club wrong now.

No. I think I my original premise was right. Some amateurs are nice
guys and deserve to be on that list.

An interesting thing about that: You don't get to decide that. Two ops
who are members decide that.

Then there are others who are
jerks and shouldn't be on that list.

You don't get to decide that. Two ops who are members decide that.

How you got on it is a mystery
to me,

I can understand that. I'm sure that a number of things are a mystery
to you.

but I do stand corrected. You did get on the list somehow.

Two ops who are members nominate someone. That is the only way to
become an A-1 Op. Perhaps you should read the qualifications for
membership.
I don't think you'll find anything about suffering fools gladly in
usenet.

Being indignant has naught to do with it. Keeping you
honest has been the problem.

Your cutesy-stupid routine and acting indignant is wearing a little
thin.

Aren't you getting tired of picking up that chip and putting it back on
your shoulder?

Best of Luck.

Your words drip with insincerity.

Dave K8MN

So sorry.

David Heil worked me on two different occassions.

Am I to understand that you are not David Heil?

If not, I apologize for a case of mistaken identity.

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


N2EY wrote:


In article , Mike Coslo
writes:



I think that the numbers of hams will continue to
decrease until we are taken out of the limbo we have been in for some
time now.



What "limbo", Mike? We've had a class of US ham license with no code test
for
more than 13-1/2 years now. The maximum code test speed has been 5 wpm

for more

than 4 years now - and for a decade before that, medical waivers were
available.

Limbo is when a prospective ham thinks that possibly he or she can get
on HF simply by waiting a few months and not having to take any Morse
code test.


OK. But would that really keep a lot of folks from getting any license at all?

It would seem to me that the sensible thing to do in that situation, were
someone that averse to the 5 wpm code test, would be to pass the Tech and
General writtens. Maybe toss in the Extra written too. They'd have a Tech
license and General and/or Extra CSCE. Then, when the code test went away,
they'd be all set to go. Spend the waiting time setting up a station, antenna,
etc.

It might seem sensible to you or me, but I don't think that all that
many people think that way. Of course, they would also have to know
about CSCE's too. I didn't know about them until I flunked my first
Morse code test.

And I'm not certain that the CSCE will apply to the new licensing
scheme. And of course, the year and a day might (probably, in my
opinion) pass before the new testing regimen takes effect, in which case
you will have to take the tests again, and will have wasted the money on
the old tests.


Let's compare the situation to when the Governor of PA had the temporary
tax exemption on computers. I think it lasted something like a week.
Guess what happened to computer sales at the local Circuit City, Best
Buy, etc. the week or two before the exemption. When I went in and
looked around, the sales clerk at one store even told me to hold off
until next week.

Seems like a direct comparison to me.


Not really. We *knew* the tax exemption was coming, and it was only a week or
two away. And we knew the exemption would only last a week or so.

Specific dates aren't the issue, at least with what I am trying to say.
Its the concept of the thing. If you only wait for a while (the Morse
code requirement goes away, or the tax is suspended) you will get (the
amateur radio license or the computer) for a lot (less effort or less money)

My statement is that some people will wait for reduced entry
requirements. Most people think change happens quickly. SO they say "I
will wait". Then chaneg doesn't occur in a short time. Then they lose
interest and go away without ever becoming a Ham.

And I don't completely buy that the person who does this wasn't *really*
interested. I only recently became a Ham - around 5 years now. I had no
real interest in many of the things that Hams do when I got started. I
discovered the joys only after some time had passed.

Now I'm a member of the BOD at our local club. I was Field day chairman
this past year. I control op the club station during the big QSO party
of the fall. I'm at every public service event we have. And I am
starting to organize a NSS project in PA (wanna join in?)

Not too shabby for an "mildly interested" peron, eh?

It made sense for folks who were contemplating a computer purchase to simply
wait a week or two.

As it might make sense to some people to wait before getting their
licenses.

Here in southeast PA, some folks simply drive to Delaware for big taxable
purchases that are easily portable. Computers, hamgear, cameras, etc. The big
question is whether the savings offset the driving cost.

Yet our businesses survive.

No doubt, but aren't we straying a bit here?


The code test may or may not go away in the next few years/months/decades.
The
written exams may change similarly. The various bands may change as well.

I don't think that's the problem.


The prospective amateur has *no* idea at this time if the Morse code
requirement will be kept, how long it will be kept if it is, and when it
will go away if it is discarded.



So? Someone who really wants to be a ham will do what is necessary to pass
the tests at the time.

I'd temper that. If I thought that the Morse requirement would go away
in say, 6 months, I would have waited.


Sure - but that's if you knew for sure. At this point we don't even have an
NPRM.

ARRL predicted 2 years. It's been over 14 months since WRC 2003 ended.


And most people do not expect a long time to pass before it goes away.
I know some people were incredulous when I gave my time to expiry (if
any) in that pool we had a while back.


I reposted the list/pool. Look how many people were wrong - including me.


In as much as most people will not imagine that the changes to come will
take as long as as the will likely take, the net effect will be
potential Hams sitting and waiting for the Morse code to go away.



Maybe some will. I think most interested folks will simply learn enough to
pass the tests and get on with it.



Its certainly what I would do if I were thinking about getting a
license at this point.



But it's not what you did when you got started.


Some things operating there.

There was no code elimination horizon.


Sure there was. NCI was pushing for it, weren't they? WRC 2003 was on the way.

Well, yeah. Remember that you are posting from the point of view of
knowing a *lot* of details. When I was a Technician, I had heard of NCI.
But I didn't know what a "WRC" was. Takes a while to assimilate all that
knowledge.

And I did know enough that it was a real requirement, so just the NCI
pushing for code elimination didn't hold any sway for me.


I'm skeptical enough and have enough experience that I knew it was going
to be a long time coming

I wanted to get on HF pretty badly.

I'm not afraid of learning something (even though it was admittedly very
hard for me)


You are not alone. Or even rare, despite what some naysayers would have us
believe.


And would you not get *any* license until the code test went away, or would
you just hold off from upgrading?

Hard to say. When I originally got my license, I was only planning on
being a Technician, and I was thinking about how to apply Amateur radio
to my other hobby, Amateur astronomy. I really didn't have much interest
in HF at all! then after a field day where I was allowed to operate, I
was hooked. So my experience is likely not typical.


I disagree!

A lot of new hams come into amateur radio by such indirect routes. In my youth,
many hams came from the ranks of SWLs.


In fact, if it
wasn't for the Technician no-code license, I probably wouldn't be a Ham
now. (to my great loss!!)

See? You would have just held off upgrading.

But we don't see that happening. The total number of Tech and Tech Pluses is
declining.


Whatever is done should be done and done quickly. That said, there is a
mile of difference between "should" and "will". I still stand by my
original prediction made some time ago.



Back in 1989-1990 we were told that a nocodetest ham license was
"absolutely
needed for growth". And when it became a reality, we got some short-term
growth
for a few years.

Then we were told that the code test had to go for the same reason - and it
was
dropped to 5 wpm for all classes in 2000. We got some short-term growth for
a
few years - now we're back *below* the level before the restructuring.

It isn't the code or lack of it. It is the limbo state of not knowing
what is going to happen.

I don't think changes will make for growth, except in the short term.


I think it's lack of publicity, plus competition from other activities, plus
the loss of "honeydew hams" to cell phones and FRS/GMRS. Plus antenna
limitations, RFI, ...


I was a ham way back in 1967, when they said incentive licensing would
"kill
amateur radio". There were about 250,000 US hams back then. Yet in the 10
years
after incentive licensing took full effect (1969-1979 or thereabouts) the
number of US hams grew by about 100,000, despite poor economic conditions,
much
less accessible testing, waiting period for Extra, no code waivers and a
code
test for all hams. And no internet or computer-based training methods.

Of course. Way too much emphasis is put on all the modern conveniences


and the numbers of Hams.


A lot of folks are looking for a challenge, not a giveaway.

Oh yeah, that NSS project I'm trying to put together should be a
challenge. (wanna join up?)


I wouldn't care if I had to take the test,
writing on the back of a shovel with a piece of limestone, while Heidi
Klum was trying to distract me. How's that for working her into the
thread! ;^)


In my case it was Heidi and Jan Smithers fighting over me....

hmmm, I might purposely flunk just so I could retest (is there any
limit on how many tests you can take??


Jim, do you still have those dates?


Posted in a new thread.

Okay, thanks.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
[snip]
And I'm not certain that the CSCE will apply to the new licensing
scheme. And of course, the year and a day might (probably, in my
opinion) pass before the new testing regimen takes effect, in which case
you will have to take the tests again, and will have wasted the money on
the old tests.



FYI. The CSCE is NOT good for a year. It is good for 365 days so leap
years have occasionally caused people problems. For example if you tested
on March 30, 1999 then it expired on March 29, 2000 since February of 2000
had 29 days not 28.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Subject: ARS License Numbers
From: (William)
Date: 9/18/2004 4:59 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

Sorry if it irritates or otherwise annoys you, but that's the price
you
pay for "freedom of speech"...Having to also endure others "free speech",
whether you like it or not.

Yes, you do irritate and annoy me. You are like that; an annoyance
and irritant. Like a bug. Jim much less so. He actually has
something to say on occassion.

Well then, you FINALLY are getting the point.

You're irritating too. But for different reasons.

I irritate you because I refuse to take your mistruths and deceit.

But you go beyond irritance and annoyance. You make references to
homosexuality and pedophilia, and pseudo-threaten bricks/windows and
slashes/tires and terrorist acts on wives.

Quoting out of context again for that "slam-dunk" effect...

You're a Peach.

I prefer apples and strawberries, actually.

A Gem.

Cubic Zhirconium, perhaps.

A true Ambassador of Amateur Radio.

When I am participating in Amateur Radio, I am.

You would make Riley proud.

He's never had to send me "pink slip", Brian, so why wouldn't I...???

Ham of the Year material.

As opposed to someone who lies about what a big DX operator he is...?!?!
Maybe so, but I doubt it.

So when I asked, "Jim, when did we lose the code test?" you felt
compelled to answer as if you were Jim?

Did I sign my post "N2EY"...? Did I say I was Jim?

But you answered incorrectly. We still have a code exam. Jim could
have told you that since he is incapable of lying (he knows he'll burn
in hell for lying, and you know you're already in hell, so what's the
diff?).

I am in hell?

I don't think so...Thankfully I wake up next to W5AMY...Not YOU.

And I keep telling Jim that you cannot help yourself from having to
respond to every posting, but he doesn't believe it. Yet you prove it
over and over again! And he doesn't believe it. No matter how many
times you prove it over and over again, he just doesn't believe it.

Why should he?

It's not true.

It wasn't true yesterday, and it's not true today.

I do not respond to "every posting"...Not yours, Not Lennie's, not Jim's
nor anyone elses.

You have uttered yet ANOTHER mistruth.

I think the both of you are dysfunctional.

Why?

Because we challenge your frequent errors and omissions?

Loggins and Messina got it right, "Twin Brothers of Insane Mothers."

Best of Luck.

No luck needed here, Brian.

You're still wrong, and no amount of hand-wringing is going to rid you of
your errors.

Sucks to be you.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: ARS License Numbers
From: (William)
Date: 9/19/2004 7:57 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Brian Kelly) wrote in message
.com...


Date/time/freq pse?

QSL?

w3rv

Kelly, I owe you no QSO. bb

Hey Brian (W3RV)...nickle says he CAN'T. He might get on there, have a
good time, and then realize just how wrong he'd been all along.

Then he'd not be able to sleep at night worrying about what Lennie thought
of him.

73

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: ARS License Numbers
From: (William)
Date: 9/19/2004 2:19 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: ARS License Numbers
From: (William)
Date: 9/19/2004 7:57 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Brian Kelly) wrote in message
.com...


Date/time/freq pse?

QSL?

w3rv

Kelly, I owe you no QSO. bb

Hey Brian (W3RV)...nickle says he CAN'T. He might get on there, have a
good time, and then realize just how wrong he'd been all along.

Then he'd not be able to sleep at night worrying about what Lennie
thought
of him.

Actually, I don't want to risk being involved in a "Riley-type"
action.

You guys don't behave yourselves in an open forum, so why would you
behave otherwise on the air unless you were two-faced?

Coward.

Again.

Steve, K4YZ

In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

My entry into ham radio was also by virtue of "something else." My husband
at the time saw classes listed and had always wanted to be a ham (he'd had
relatives who were hams). He said "let's do this together" and basically
dragged me along as I had no interest at the time. Once I got involved in
the class, I found it fascinating and not only got my Tech (with code) but
immediately forged ahead to get my upgrades. Well that husband and I have
parted ways, but I have remained active in ham radio except for the
temporary effects of moving three times.

GREAT story, Dee, and it proves my point: The real problem was that you didn't
know much about ham radio, not that "the tests were too hard" or "Morse code
was a barrier". Once you knew what ham radio had to offer, you just went for
it. And it wasn't a "make spouse/parents happy" thing, but a genuine interst on
your part.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(William) wrote in message
. com...
(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: ARS License Numbers
From: (William)
Date: 9/19/2004 7:57 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Brian Kelly) wrote in message
.com...


Date/time/freq pse?

QSL?

w3rv

Kelly, I owe you no QSO. bb

Hey Brian (W3RV)...nickle says he CAN'T. He might get on there, have
a
good time, and then realize just how wrong he'd been all along.

Then he'd not be able to sleep at night worrying about what Lennie
thought
of him.

Actually, I don't want to risk being involved in a "Riley-type"
action.

You guys don't behave yourselves in an open forum, so why would you
behave otherwise on the air unless you were two-faced?

More Weenie Willy horsepucky, Riley would have applauded our
performance and deportment during the 2001 RRAP 40M roundtable as
documented any number of times in this NG. Of course you weren't there
either.

Gotta love all this "civil discourse" from olde-tyme hammes. :-)

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: ARS License Numbers
From: (William)
Date: 9/18/2004 4:59 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

Sorry if it irritates or otherwise annoys you, but that's the price
you
pay for "freedom of speech"...Having to also endure others "free
speech",
whether you like it or not.

Yes, you do irritate and annoy me. You are like that; an annoyance
and irritant. Like a bug. Jim much less so. He actually has
something to say on occassion.

Well then, you FINALLY are getting the point.

You're irritating too. But for different reasons.

I irritate you because I refuse to take your lies and deceit.

How can you? From a veteran of "seven hostile actions?"

I irritate you because I refuse to take your mistruths and deceit.

You irritate me because you lie.

Not in his fantasyland. Only in reality.


But you go beyond irritance and annoyance. You make references to
homosexuality and pedophilia, and pseudo-threaten bricks/windows and
slashes/tires and terrorist acts on wives.

Quoting out of context again for that "slam-dunk" effect...

I've said it before to no effect, so you're lying again.

Prove the "slam-dunk" effect.

He can't use a net. He'll "call authoritities" because he has
"professional qualifications" to have authorities come and pick
us up (in a net, one supposes) and that is that. In his fantasy.

You're a Peach.

I prefer apples and strawberries, actually.

"Thier" not fuzzy.

A Gem.

Cubic Zhirconium, perhaps.

Definitely an imposter passing himself off as legitimate.

A true Ambassador of Amateur Radio.

When I am participating in Amateur Radio, I am.

Then you are two-faced.

You forgot the other kind of face... :-)

You would make Riley proud.

He's never had to send me "pink slip", Brian, so why wouldn't I...???

Perhaps your actions aren't enforceable, but merely distasteful.

Maybe he buys his own pink slips at the lingerie department?


Ham of the Year material.

As opposed to someone who lies about what a big DX operator he
is...?!?!
Maybe so, but I doubt it.

Go easy on Dave, he's well liked in the DX community and you'll just
bring a ton of scorn upon yourself for taking such a tact.

How quickly they turn upon each other... tsk.

So when I asked, "Jim, when did we lose the code test?" you felt
compelled to answer as if you were Jim?

Did I sign my post "N2EY"...? Did I say I was Jim?

Yet, I asked, "Jim, ..."

And you answered. And answered incorrectly, I might add.

"Strike twoooooo!"

He will call the Umpire "wrong." Then cuss the Ump out. :-)

But you answered incorrectly. We still have a code exam. Jim could
have told you that since he is incapable of lying (he knows he'll burn
in hell for lying, and you know you're already in hell, so what's the
diff?).

I am in hell?

It is obvious that you are tormented by devils.

Only inside his head.

What is it that you have to atone for?

To take a page from -your- playbook, "homosexuality, pedophilia,
bricks, slashed tires, spousal terrorism?" All assertions that you
have made right here on R.R.A.P. coming back to haunt you.

Sucks to be you? Yeh, I'd say so.

He denies those. He "never said them!" Except he did and were
seen by many. yawn


I don't think so...Thankfully I wake up next to W5AMY...Not YOU.

Who dat?

From QRZ.com:

"Callsign: W5AMY Class: Technician Codes: HVIE USA
Name: AMELIA J ROBESON
Addr1: 151 12TH AVE NW
Addr2: WINCHESTER, TN 37398
Country: USA
Effective: 29 May 2003 Expires: 03 Oct 2010
FRN: 0003911245 What's this?
FCC: ULS Listing
Lookups: 329
Update / Renew License

QSL Mgr: K4CAP
Previously: KD6IJB
Coordinates: 35.188876 -86.111111
County: Franklin
Grid: EM75hi
Area Code: 931
GMT Offset: -6
Time Zone: Central
Has DST?: Y
Birthday: 21 Jan 1964"

End QRZ quote.

She'll be proud and thankful of you for dragging her into your
R.R.A.P. sickness.

Is she a psychologist?

What is her AOL screen name? ?

Tsk. Second time around. ["strike twooooo" :-) ]

I wonder if 151 12th Ave. NW has sturdy windows? Like enough to
resist bricks? :-)

And I keep telling Jim that you cannot help yourself from having to
respond to every posting, but he doesn't believe it. Yet you prove it
over and over again!

And again.

And he doesn't believe it. No matter how many
times you prove it over and over again, he just doesn't believe it.

Why should he?

And again.

It's not true.

And again.

It wasn't true yesterday, and it's not true today.

And again.

I do not respond to "every posting"...Not yours, Not Lennie's, not
Jim's
nor anyone elses.

And again.

You have uttered yet ANOTHER mistruth.

And again.

One needs to use macros to "reply" to some... :-)


I think the both of you are dysfunctional.

Why?

Because we challenge your frequent errors and omissions?

Because you have no choice but to respond. You're incapable of not
responding.

Compulsive obsessionists. Tsk.

Loggins and Messina got it right, "Twin Brothers of Insane Mothers."

Best of Luck.

No luck needed here, Brian.

Luck into someone with real medical training in mental illness. Jim's
not up to the task no matter his best intentions.

Jimmie isn't? Gosh, I thought he knew EVERYTHING, what's "right"
and what's "wrong."

Tsk. Another illusion shattered...

[pass the Angostura... :-) ]

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(William) writes:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: ARS License Numbers
From: (William)
Date: 9/18/2004 4:59 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

Sorry if it irritates or otherwise annoys you, but that's the
price
you
pay for "freedom of speech"...Having to also endure others "free
speech",
whether you like it or not.

Yes, you do irritate and annoy me. You are like that; an annoyance
and irritant. Like a bug. Jim much less so. He actually has
something to say on occassion.

Well then, you FINALLY are getting the point.

You're irritating too. But for different reasons.

I irritate you because I refuse to take your lies and deceit.

How can you? From a veteran of "seven hostile actions?"

I irritate you because I refuse to take your mistruths and deceit.

You irritate me because you lie.

Not in his fantasyland. Only in reality.


But you go beyond irritance and annoyance. You make references to
homosexuality and pedophilia, and pseudo-threaten bricks/windows and
slashes/tires and terrorist acts on wives.

Quoting out of context again for that "slam-dunk" effect...

I've said it before to no effect, so you're lying again.

Prove the "slam-dunk" effect.

He can't use a net. He'll "call authoritities" because he has
"professional qualifications" to have authorities come and pick
us up (in a net, one supposes) and that is that. In his fantasy.

Wish we could hook up his brain to a TIVO and record 40 hours of
fantasy. I'd call Stephen King and work out a deal.

Not needed. LOTS of producers will be willing to negotiate now
that the Emmys are over. The Writer-Producers Guild combined
investment building is on Hollywood Way close to the Magnolia
intersection...just a whoop and a holler from my place. :-)

Better than trying to sell a "security camera taping." :-)

You're a Peach.

I prefer apples and strawberries, actually.

"Thier" not fuzzy.

A Gem.

Cubic Zhirconium, perhaps.

Definitely an imposter passing himself off as legitimate.

A true Ambassador of Amateur Radio.

When I am participating in Amateur Radio, I am.

Then you are two-faced.

You forgot the other kind of face... :-)

You would make Riley proud.

He's never had to send me "pink slip", Brian, so why wouldn't
I...???

If he did would you try it on?

Might be able to sell a videotape of THAT as well...(smaller market,
but a profitable one...) Hi hi.

Perhaps your actions aren't enforceable, but merely distasteful.

Maybe he buys his own pink slips at the lingerie department?

I'm waiting for the Victoria's Secret Christmas spetchal. We might
get a glimpse of our CAP Air Ace in pink. ;))

Might even have it in the Abercrombie & Snitch catalog, too! :-)

Ham of the Year material.

As opposed to someone who lies about what a big DX operator he
is...?!?!
Maybe so, but I doubt it.

Go easy on Dave, he's well liked in the DX community and you'll just
bring a ton of scorn upon yourself for taking such a tact.

How quickly they turn upon each other... tsk.

Like Dingo's.

Oh, the snarling and anger...! :-)

So when I asked, "Jim, when did we lose the code test?" you felt
compelled to answer as if you were Jim?

Did I sign my post "N2EY"...? Did I say I was Jim?

Yet, I asked, "Jim, ..."

And you answered. And answered incorrectly, I might add.

"Strike twoooooo!"

He will call the Umpire "wrong." Then cuss the Ump out. :-)

But you answered incorrectly. We still have a code exam. Jim could
have told you that since he is incapable of lying (he knows he'll burn
in hell for lying, and you know you're already in hell, so what's the
diff?).

I am in hell?

It is obvious that you are tormented by devils.

Only inside his head.

What is it that you have to atone for?

To take a page from -your- playbook, "homosexuality, pedophilia,
bricks, slashed tires, spousal terrorism?" All assertions that you
have made right here on R.R.A.P. coming back to haunt you.

Sucks to be you? Yeh, I'd say so.

He denies those. He "never said them!" Except he did and were
seen by many. yawn

But it's no big deal to them.

The PCTA extra Double Standard! It's alive and well in here.

I don't think so...Thankfully I wake up next to W5AMY...Not YOU.

Who dat?

From QRZ.com:

"Callsign: W5AMY Class: Technician Codes: HVIE USA
Name: AMELIA J ROBESON
Addr1: 151 12TH AVE NW
Addr2: WINCHESTER, TN 37398
Country: USA
Effective: 29 May 2003 Expires: 03 Oct 2010
FRN: 0003911245 What's this?
FCC: ULS Listing
Lookups: 329
Update / Renew License

*******************
QSL Mgr: K4CAP
*******************

Hi, hi!

K4CAP is Kaput! Oop-sai-yo!

"QSL manager?" Wonder if he censors her mail, too?

Previously: KD6IJB
Coordinates: 35.188876 -86.111111
County: Franklin
Grid: EM75hi
Area Code: 931
GMT Offset: -6
Time Zone: Central
Has DST?: Y
Birthday: 21 Jan 1964"

End QRZ quote.

She'll be proud and thankful of you for dragging her into your
R.R.A.P. sickness.

Is she a psychologist?

What is her AOL screen name? ?

Tsk. Second time around. ["strike twooooo" :-) ]

I wonder if 151 12th Ave. NW has sturdy windows? Like enough to
resist bricks? :-)

And I keep telling Jim that you cannot help yourself from having to
respond to every posting, but he doesn't believe it. Yet you prove it
over and over again!

And again.

And he doesn't believe it. No matter how many
times you prove it over and over again, he just doesn't believe it.

Why should he?

And again.

It's not true.

And again.

It wasn't true yesterday, and it's not true today.

And again.

I do not respond to "every posting"...Not yours, Not Lennie's, not
Jim's
nor anyone elses.

And again.

You have uttered yet ANOTHER mistruth.

And again.

One needs to use macros to "reply" to some... :-)

A-yup!

Ayup indeed... :-)

I think the both of you are dysfunctional.

Why?

Because we challenge your frequent errors and omissions?

Because you have no choice but to respond. You're incapable of not
responding.

Compulsive obsessionists. Tsk.

Loggins and Messina got it right, "Twin Brothers of Insane Mothers."

Best of Luck.

No luck needed here, Brian.

Luck into someone with real medical training in mental illness. Jim's
not up to the task no matter his best intentions.

Jimmie isn't? Gosh, I thought he knew EVERYTHING, what's "right"
and what's "wrong."

This sickness is just a little out of Jim's league.

Nonsense. Jimmie know ALL, especially who is "wrong" and who is
"right." One doesn't need to ask him, he tell all... :-)

Tsk. Another illusion shattered...

[pass the Angostura... :-) ]



Hey Len, I've been holding the fort down for a few days - with one
hand tied behind my back. I can't believe how easy it's been. Steve
drags his wife into this, Dave thinks CQ is a membership organization,
and Kelly want to get me on the air so he can bend me over. Maybe
I'll postpone pulling a Cecil for a little while longer.

Anyway, can you believe this fool drags his wife into this? So far
nobody has made fun of her "Old Timey" call sign. Hope it stays that
way. Notice who her QSL manager is??? ;^)

Didn't Arnie Macey's wife come on here a few times and straighten us
all out?

I could be wrong. Been wrong before.

I seem to remember Mrs. Nursie allegedly coming in here for one
message and telling everyone that Yell-yell was just such a nice
person...or whatever. Was a long time ago in here.

Of course, there were NO authenticators to prove any of that. :-)

PCTA extras "never lie" (according to them). [ahem...]

We all MUST "believe" them, like they "always tell the truth."

Like Quitfun and Deoderant Voice of God are "real hams."

Of course. :-)

N2EY wrote:
(Brian Kelly) wrote in message om...

(N2EY) wrote in message ...

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:


(William) wrote in message



Cecil didn't "switch" anything,

The hell he didn't. He resigned his NCI membership.

Really? I obviously missed that one. Good for him.

After the rules changed, he said that reduction to 5 wpm for all classes was
enough. He resigned his membership in NCI and soon after reduced his
participation here. He's still around in rraa but not nearly as much as
before.

The bottom line is that Cecil and many others are ahead of the power
curve as usual but thee and me and a few other PCTAs are silly enough
to still hang out around here.


Sort of. Who does most of the posting here, in both number of posts
and length? It ain't me or thee, by a long shot.


This USENET group was a huge deal back
when the code test flap was The Big Thing.


4-1/2+ years ago.


Which at this point is a
dead topic since the code test is obviously not going away within any
visible timframe if ever.


Frankly, I'm amazed that FCC didn't MO&O it out of existence last
summer.


So Cecil, Hare, innumerable others and even
Carl Anderson


Stevenson


for cripes sake, the Honcho Maximo of NCI wised up and
bailed out of here long ago leaving us to bicker mindlesssly,
circularly and endlessly with dim lights like Burke and the other
Anderson. WE'RE the RRAP stupids for bothering with any of it
Miccolis.


Who is bothering? I read a few posts, write a few, discuss interesting
topics with KB3EIA, N8UZE, and some others. Filtering what one reads
works wonders.

Carl only got to reap what he sowed. He also altered his opinion to
something he said that he would never do. Nothing wrong with changing
one's mind - I do it at least three times before breakfast. (someone's
quote) But a large part of my earlier respect was based on that "never
reducing test requirements" statement. So he did a lot of credibility
erosion there.

And I respond to who I like in the group. occasionally even Lenover21,
when I'm in a puckish mood! ;^)


Sorry you weren't there to join that exercise

No you're not.

Congratulations Burke, you finally got something right.

All were invited. Some of us showed up. And some of us have worked since.

Remember that FD when you worked AC6XG on 20 CW?

Sure, whatta hoot. What was is it . . midnight or so at that hopeless
Clayton Park FD fiasco . . ?


Yep.


20 had been slowly petering down all
evening and I was in a hurt for Qs but then suddenly the Ether perked
up and there was Jim big and bad at 40wpm. I'll do you a favor and not
get into a description your dismal encounter with my Kent paddles . .
heh . . !


Then I hooked up the bug and chatted w/him. That musta been four years
ago - since then I've done at least 3 non-CP FDs


Logged him.

Refresh me here James, I think it was around the time that I logged XG
that I/we started to hear a lot more signals from very far off places
than I/we could hear from US FD stations. So to hell with FD, let's
get back to basics and go dxing I sayithed to self. Worked the JA who
was in some other contest. Logged him too. Apparently Newington did
not disallow that one.


DX contacts count for FD. They give you a signal report, it counts.


They simpy doan give a **** abt FD logs good or
bogus.


Not true! The QSOs were good. There was one SP handing 'em out 2-3 a
minute later on - remember? They all counted.


Then came Balch who finally waddled in out of the gloom of the
parking lot (two hours late as usual) to take over the seat and rolled
his eyes heavenward when he was copying my Q with the VK2 blaring all
over the park from the 940 spkr.


Yep.

DX qsos count; it's just that DX stations' logs aren't counted
competitively in the listings.

A year or two ago the definition was changed so that FD covers not
just North America but SA too. Which means N2EY/Tierra del Fuego could
compete...


. . worked the German and then the Peruvian but that was it, thus I
blew a one-hour midnite FD WAC for the lack of a Q with an African.
RATZ, not a ZS6 anywhere to be found!


I remember....

All of 'em, I believe we agree (but check me), were worked with
radiation from the shield of the coax which fed Robert's triband
Mosely aircooled dummy load upon high.


Musta been 5 years ago, becuz the next year you brought the halfsize
G5RV to avoid such headaches.

I have not gotten into this topic previously anywhere with anybody
because several years later it still ****es me off the extent that I
can still easily go too ballistic about it and post fodder which
anti-hams would just love. But fuggit, I gotta get it off my chest and
let the chips fall where they might.


I hear ya.

I don't remember which of those three Clayton Park debacles we did
together but during one of 'em it was well after sundown, very late,
most of the usual crowd had gone home, activity was down and I was
grinding away but going nowhere in a hurry. I took a break for a pit
stop. On my way back to my seat I first passed a group of the usual
collection of hardcore neighborhood repeater dwellers we both know
bull****ting abt nothing as usual. A few feet later there was young
guy who was clearly having odd problems with the HF xcvr he was using,
some POS or another. So I asked "Are you having problems guy?" "Yes I
am".

The guy was blind, he was not familiar with the POS "they" finally
scheduled him to operate after everybody else had gotten their jollies
off with it earlier at their convenience but he could not diddle it's
controls and get it on the air. I sat with him for some length of
time, maybe 15 minutes or so and guided his hands around the front
panel of the xcvr and got him up and running on some phone band or
another. In the meanwhile the aformentioned collection of bull****ers
wasn't more than eight feet from him throuhout all of it. I gotta tell
you that in all my half century on the bands that was the worst of the
worst of the bad experiences I've had in the game. Madonna was right:
It's a material world. Yes, I fear for the future of ham radio.


I did not know that story. Makes me sick.

Oy! Just remember, Karma keeps a bank account, and pays back with
interest! Thank goodness you stopped to help the guy, Brian.


Now watch, somebody will spin it into being *your* fault.

But do not fear for the future of amateur radio too much. Here's why:

Back when you started, and to a lesser extent even when I started, ham
radio was populated mostly by folks who took it very seriously. "Radio
for its own sake" wasn't something most people were interested in. The
license process, operating skill requirements and equipment costs
alone insured that most hams had a considerable personal investment -
and the money was the least of it. Sure, there were some clueless folk
but they either learned or were really frustrated.

Then a bunch of things happened. The cb boom made 2 way radio popular
and practical for lots of folks, the development of ssb and then fm
transceivers and solidstate made the equipment small, less expensive
and easier to use, etc. We got a lot of good hams, of course, but also
a sizable number who are only "sort of" interested, and who don't take
it that seriously, nor have a big personal investment. The whole code
test issue is really just an iceberg-tip for the concept of personal
investment.

Now we have the internet and cheap cell phones and GMRS/FRS. Which
have pulled away a lot of the folks who were "sort of" interested in
ham radio. That's why repeater use and 'honeydew' licensing is down -
much easier to just use the cell phone or FRS.

So the future of ham radio relies on those who are really interested
in radio for its own sake and are a lot more than "sort of"
interested. Those folks are out there, and will continue to be. But
they will not be attracted by lowering the requirements or trying to
make ham radio a sort of rf version of the internet.


Wow! That last paragraph is a real keeper, Jim. I may post it in my
shack, WYP of course....



- Mike KB3EIA -

Not sure if I answered this one or not...

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Limbo is when a prospective ham thinks that possibly he or she can get
on HF simply by waiting a few months and not having to take any Morse
code test.

OK. But would that really keep a lot of folks from getting any license at
all?

It would seem to me that the sensible thing to do in that situation, were
someone that averse to the 5 wpm code test, would be to pass the Tech and
General writtens. Maybe toss in the Extra written too. They'd have a Tech
license and General and/or Extra CSCE. Then, when the code test went away,
they'd be all set to go. Spend the waiting time setting up a station,
antenna, etc.

It might seem sensible to you or me, but I don't think that all that
many people think that way. Of course, they would also have to know
about CSCE's too. I didn't know about them until I flunked my first
Morse code test.

I guess it all comes down to how knowledgeable a newcomer is.

And I'm not certain that the CSCE will apply to the new licensing
scheme.

There's never been a case I know of where a non-expired CSCE was not useful for
a license class that was still available to new issues.

And of course, the year and a day might (probably, in my
opinion) pass before the new testing regimen takes effect, in which case
you will have to take the tests again, and will have wasted the money on
the old tests.

That's the risk. Heck, back in 1968 and 1970 I paid a total of $27 ($9 three
times) to get the Tech, Advanced and Extra. If I'd waited a little longer, I
could have avoided the test fees entirely. $27 was a lot of money to a kid back
then.

Let's compare the situation to when the Governor of PA had the temporary
tax exemption on computers. I think it lasted something like a week.
Guess what happened to computer sales at the local Circuit City, Best
Buy, etc. the week or two before the exemption. When I went in and
looked around, the sales clerk at one store even told me to hold off
until next week.

Seems like a direct comparison to me.

Not really. We *knew* the tax exemption was coming, and it was only a week
or
two away. And we knew the exemption would only last a week or so.

Specific dates aren't the issue, at least with what I am trying to say.
Its the concept of the thing. If you only wait for a while (the Morse
code requirement goes away, or the tax is suspended) you will get (the
amateur radio license or the computer) for a lot (less effort or less money)

Yet people buy cars before the end-of-the-model-year sales, and things like
computers at regular price. Back in 1997 I bought a PC setup for $2500 - 200
MHz 32 MB w/4gig HD, 17" monitor, 56k modem, inkjet printer, etc. Today the
whole setup is worth maybe $100 on a good day (most of that is the Trinitron
monitor), and you can get a system that has 10 times more of almost everything
for about $500. If only I'd waited...

My statement is that some people will wait for reduced entry
requirements. Most people think change happens quickly. SO they say "I
will wait". Then chaneg doesn't occur in a short time. Then they lose
interest and go away without ever becoming a Ham.

I submit to you that the person who loses interest that easily would be
dissuaded by the difficulty of putting up an HF antenna (even a simple endfed
wire), or the cost of ham gear (while the values keep improving, the prices
stay about the same), or a dozen other issues.

And I don't completely buy that the person who does this wasn't *really*
interested. I only recently became a Ham - around 5 years now. I had no
real interest in many of the things that Hams do when I got started. I
discovered the joys only after some time had passed.

Of course - but you *knew* you wanted to be a ham, and the fact that the tests
might change or the equipment might get cheaper or the sunspots might get
better or worse didn't really affect what you did.

Now I'm a member of the BOD at our local club. I was Field day chairman
this past year. I control op the club station during the big QSO party
of the fall. I'm at every public service event we have. And I am
starting to organize a NSS project in PA (wanna join in?)

Do they need CW ops? ;-)

Not too shabby for an "mildly interested" peron, eh?

I'd hardly classify you as "mildly interested"...

It made sense for folks who were contemplating a computer purchase to
simply wait a week or two.

As it might make sense to some people to wait before getting their
licenses.

But the timeline is not as short nor as definite.

Here in southeast PA, some folks simply drive to Delaware for big taxable
purchases that are easily portable. Computers, hamgear, cameras, etc. The
big question is whether the savings offset the driving cost.

Yet our businesses survive.

No doubt, but aren't we straying a bit here?

Not at all!

Down here in southeast PA, almost everyone who understands taxation knows that
there's no sales tax in DE, while we PA folk pay 6%. (You don't want to know
about New York State!) The state line is a half-hour from most of Philly, an
hour from the most-northerly parts. Yet the local malls and stores aren't
losing significant business to their DE counterparts.

Oddly enough, more folks *will* cross the line into NJ or MD to buy cheaper
liquor, even though doing so is illegal while crossing the line to buy a
computer is not.

The code test may or may not go away in the next few years/months/decades.
The
written exams may change similarly. The various bands may change as well.

I don't think that's the problem.

The prospective amateur has *no* idea at this time if the Morse code
requirement will be kept, how long it will be kept if it is, and when it
will go away if it is discarded.

So? Someone who really wants to be a ham will do what is necessary to pass
the tests at the time.

I'd temper that. If I thought that the Morse requirement would go away
in say, 6 months, I would have waited.

Sure - but that's if you knew for sure. At this point we don't even have an
NPRM.

ARRL predicted 2 years. It's been over 14 months since WRC 2003 ended.

And most people do not expect a long time to pass before it goes away.
I know some people were incredulous when I gave my time to expiry (if
any) in that pool we had a while back.

Now if Hans, K0HB, would submit *his* proposal, we might see some action!

I reposted the list/pool. Look how many people were wrong - including me.

I'm glad I was wrong!

In as much as most people will not imagine that the changes to come will
take as long as as the will likely take, the net effect will be
potential Hams sitting and waiting for the Morse code to go away.

Maybe some will. I think most interested folks will simply learn enough to
pass the tests and get on with it.

Its certainly what I would do if I were thinking about getting a
license at this point.

But it's not what you did when you got started.

Some things operating there.

There was no code elimination horizon.

Sure there was. NCI was pushing for it, weren't they? WRC 2003 was on the
way.

Well, yeah. Remember that you are posting from the point of view of
knowing a *lot* of details. When I was a Technician, I had heard of NCI.
But I didn't know what a "WRC" was. Takes a while to assimilate all that
knowledge.

Agreed.

And I did know enough that it was a real requirement, so just the NCI
pushing for code elimination didn't hold any sway for me.

I'm skeptical enough and have enough experience that I knew it was going
to be a long time coming

I wanted to get on HF pretty badly.

I'm not afraid of learning something (even though it was admittedly very
hard for me)

You are not alone. Or even rare, despite what some naysayers would have us
believe.

And would you not get *any* license until the code test went away, or
would
you just hold off from upgrading?

Hard to say. When I originally got my license, I was only planning on
being a Technician, and I was thinking about how to apply Amateur radio
to my other hobby, Amateur astronomy. I really didn't have much interest
in HF at all! then after a field day where I was allowed to operate, I
was hooked. So my experience is likely not typical.

I disagree!

A lot of new hams come into amateur radio by such indirect routes. In my
youth,
many hams came from the ranks of SWLs.

In fact, if it
wasn't for the Technician no-code license, I probably wouldn't be a Ham
now. (to my great loss!!)

See? You would have just held off upgrading.

But we don't see that happening. The total number of Tech and Tech Pluses
is declining.

Whatever is done should be done and done quickly. That said, there is a
mile of difference between "should" and "will". I still stand by my
original prediction made some time ago.

Back in 1989-1990 we were told that a nocodetest ham license was
"absolutely
needed for growth". And when it became a reality, we got some short-term
growth
for a few years.

Then we were told that the code test had to go for the same reason - and
it
was
dropped to 5 wpm for all classes in 2000. We got some short-term growth
for
a
few years - now we're back *below* the level before the restructuring.

It isn't the code or lack of it. It is the limbo state of not knowing
what is going to happen.

I don't think changes will make for growth, except in the short term.

I think it's lack of publicity, plus competition from other activities,
plus
the loss of "honeydew hams" to cell phones and FRS/GMRS. Plus antenna
limitations, RFI, ...

I was a ham way back in 1967, when they said incentive licensing would
"kill
amateur radio". There were about 250,000 US hams back then. Yet in the 10
years
after incentive licensing took full effect (1969-1979 or thereabouts) the
number of US hams grew by about 100,000, despite poor economic conditions,
much
less accessible testing, waiting period for Extra, no code waivers and a
code
test for all hams. And no internet or computer-based training methods.

Of course. Way too much emphasis is put on all the modern conveniences
and the numbers of Hams.


A lot of folks are looking for a challenge, not a giveaway.

Oh yeah, that NSS project I'm trying to put together should be a
challenge. (wanna join up?)

Do they need CW ops?

I wouldn't care if I had to take the test,
writing on the back of a shovel with a piece of limestone, while Heidi
Klum was trying to distract me. How's that for working her into the
thread! ;^)

In my case it was Heidi and Jan Smithers fighting over me....

hmmm, I might purposely flunk just so I could retest (is there any
limit on how many tests you can take??

Nope. Of course they might have a reward for those who pass....\

One final note:

If the whole code test/limbo thing is real, why are there so few nonhams
telling FCC that they'd get a license and do great things in ham radio, except
for the code test? The vast majority of folks who make that claim are already
licensed....

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

Not sure if I answered this one or not...

Tsk. You don't know?!?

NOT the way of the guru...


If the whole code test/limbo thing is real, why are there so few nonhams
telling FCC that they'd get a license and do great things in ham radio,
except for the code test? The vast majority of folks who make that claim are
already licensed....

I doubt there are ANY "nonhams telling FCC that they'd get a
license and do great things in ham radio!" :-)

That's not the context of Comments on RMs, NPRMs, etc.

If you look at those "claim" Comments, those already-licensed folk
are very busy staking claims of what they HAD done.

So, do you have a point at all or are you just chatting in the chat
room to avoid using your ham radios?

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:
(Brian Kelly) wrote in message om...


So Cecil, Hare, innumerable others and even
Carl Anderson


Stevenson

I think I'm gonna have a hard time living that one down . . ! Friggin'
Halfheimers . . !

for cripes sake, the Honcho Maximo of NCI wised up and
bailed out of here long ago leaving us to bicker mindlesssly,
circularly and endlessly with dim lights like Burke and the other
Anderson. WE'RE the RRAP stupids for bothering with any of it
Miccolis.


Who is bothering? I read a few posts, write a few, discuss interesting
topics with KB3EIA, N8UZE, and some others. Filtering what one reads
works wonders.

Carl only got to reap what he sowed. He also altered his opinion to
something he said that he would never do. Nothing wrong with changing
one's mind - I do it at least three times before breakfast. (someone's
quote) But a large part of my earlier respect was based on that "never
reducing test requirements" statement. So he did a lot of credibility
erosion there.

Mike this is gonna come off a bit weird coming from a hardcore PCTA
but I learned that the Carl is basically an OK kinda guy. I met him
eyeball-to-eyball in the Emmaus PA area when Hare, W3HJ, Carl and I
were chasing BPL signals around that area together. I had dinner with
him and at one point threatened him with a code test which he took in
good humor etc. Today he and I continue to keep in touch on a number
of topics well beyond the code test thing. Gets down to firmly
establishing the fact that, with a few obvious exceptions, perceptions
of the overall characters of RRAPers based only on what they post here
can't be taken seriously.

And I respond to who I like in the group. occasionally even Lenover21,
when I'm in a puckish mood! ;^)

.. . . see above WRT to "obvious exceptions" . . .

The guy was blind . . that was the worst of the
worst of the bad experiences I've had in the game. Madonna was right:
It's a material world. Yes, I fear for the future of ham radio.

I did not know that story. Makes me sick.

Oy! Just remember, Karma keeps a bank account, and pays back with
interest! Thank goodness you stopped to help the guy, Brian.

Gawd I was ****ed off at those jerks . . still am . . .


So the future of ham radio relies on those who are really interested
in radio for its own sake and are a lot more than "sort of"
interested. Those folks are out there, and will continue to be. But
they will not be attracted by lowering the requirements or trying to
make ham radio a sort of rf version of the internet.


Wow! That last paragraph is a real keeper, Jim. I may post it in my
shack, WYP of course....

Jim's 100% on the money.


- Mike KB3EIA -

w3rv

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
Not sure if I answered this one or not...

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

There's never been a case I know of where a non-expired CSCE was not
useful for
a license class that was still available to new issues.

And of course, the year and a day might (probably, in my
opinion) pass before the new testing regimen takes effect, in which case
you will have to take the tests again, and will have wasted the money on
the old tests.


CSCE's are only good for 365 days not one year. This is significant if
there is a leap year February between the date of issue and the potential
expiration date.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message ...

CSCE's are only good for 365 days not one year. This is significant if
there is a leap year February between the date of issue and the potential
expiration date.

A fine point that has burned a few hams!

However, the calendar is structured so that in most cases it's really
not an issue *if* the exams are taken on weekends, which is often the
case. This is because the calendar advances one day on regular years
and two days on leap years.

Example: September 26 is a Sunday in 2004 but a Monday in 2005. So if
a current Tech passes, say, Element 3 at the Podunk Hamfest this
coming Sunday, their CSCE will still be good on September 25 of 2005,
which is the last Sunday in September 2005 and probably the next
Podunk Hamfest.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Brian Kelly wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

N2EY wrote:

(Brian Kelly) wrote in message om...



So Cecil, Hare, innumerable others and even
Carl Anderson


Stevenson


I think I'm gonna have a hard time living that one down . . ! Friggin'
Halfheimers . . !


for cripes sake, the Honcho Maximo of NCI wised up and
bailed out of here long ago leaving us to bicker mindlesssly,
circularly and endlessly with dim lights like Burke and the other
Anderson. WE'RE the RRAP stupids for bothering with any of it
Miccolis.


Who is bothering? I read a few posts, write a few, discuss interesting
topics with KB3EIA, N8UZE, and some others. Filtering what one reads
works wonders.

Carl only got to reap what he sowed. He also altered his opinion to
something he said that he would never do. Nothing wrong with changing
one's mind - I do it at least three times before breakfast. (someone's
quote) But a large part of my earlier respect was based on that "never
reducing test requirements" statement. So he did a lot of credibility
erosion there.


Mike this is gonna come off a bit weird coming from a hardcore PCTA
but I learned that the Carl is basically an OK kinda guy. I met him
eyeball-to-eyball in the Emmaus PA area when Hare, W3HJ, Carl and I
were chasing BPL signals around that area together. I had dinner with
him and at one point threatened him with a code test which he took in
good humor etc. Today he and I continue to keep in touch on a number
of topics well beyond the code test thing. Gets down to firmly
establishing the fact that, with a few obvious exceptions, perceptions
of the overall characters of RRAPers based only on what they post here
can't be taken seriously.

I don't doubt that he is a decent sort. I suspect that most everyone
here would be enjoyable to be around. I would enjoy meeting Lenover21, I
would bet Steve would be a great guy to have a brew with, and I can't
condemn Brian, seein' as how he is a homebrewer!(of beer that is) ;^)
And I'm sure Hans is a hoot. And those are the people I have had some
real disagreements with.

But in the context of in here, it did frost me a bit when he decided to
support the NCVEC petition. Simply no need for that.


And I respond to who I like in the group. occasionally even Lenover21,
when I'm in a puckish mood! ;^)


. . . see above WRT to "obvious exceptions" . . .


The guy was blind . . that was the worst of the
worst of the bad experiences I've had in the game. Madonna was right:
It's a material world. Yes, I fear for the future of ham radio.

I did not know that story. Makes me sick.

Oy! Just remember, Karma keeps a bank account, and pays back with
interest! Thank goodness you stopped to help the guy, Brian.


Gawd I was ****ed off at those jerks . . still am . . .


So the future of ham radio relies on those who are really interested
in radio for its own sake and are a lot more than "sort of"
interested. Those folks are out there, and will continue to be. But
they will not be attracted by lowering the requirements or trying to
make ham radio a sort of rf version of the internet.


Wow! That last paragraph is a real keeper, Jim. I may post it in my
shack, WYP of course....


Jim's 100% on the money.

Yup!

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

for cripes sake, the Honcho Maximo of NCI wised up and
bailed out of here long ago leaving us to bicker mindlesssly,
circularly and endlessly with dim lights like Burke and the other
Anderson. WE'RE the RRAP stupids for bothering with any of it
Miccolis.

Who is bothering? I read a few posts, write a few, discuss interesting
topics with KB3EIA, N8UZE, and some others. Filtering what one reads
works wonders.

Carl only got to reap what he sowed.

Carl *used to* be one of the top name-callers, insulters, shouters, and
all-around behave-like-a-two-year-old posters here. Almost but not quite down
to Len Anderson's level of behavior.

Then Carl mellowed out and his online behavior improved dramatically. He also
became a lot easier to agree with! Perhaps it was the influence of
assertive-but-not-aggressive folks like W1RFI or K2UNK, perhaps it was seeing
FCC up close, perhaps it was the 2000 restructuring or maybe it was something
else like the fact that some of us simply refused to reply in kind. Or a
combination of factors, I don't know.

It should be remembered that Carl did, and is doing, a very significant job in
the anti-BPL efforts, including actual observations and measurements, with
detailed commentary to FCC based on first-hand experience.

He also altered his opinion to
something he said that he would never do. Nothing wrong with changing
one's mind - I do it at least three times before breakfast. (someone's
quote) But a large part of my earlier respect was based on that "never
reducing test requirements" statement. So he did a lot of credibility
erosion there.

I was really surprised at that too - at first. What it comes down to is a
political move. I think Carl so wants Element 1 to be removed, and the rules to
be simplified, that he supported the ARRL proposal even though it effectively
reduces written requirements. All about compromising to get what he thought was
most important. Faulty as it is, the ARRL proposal is much much better than the
NCVEC "Communicator" one.

Side note: If you read the commentaries on the 18 or so restructuring petitions
so far, there's no clear consensus *for* any of them. In fact, the majority
opinion seems to be to leave things as they are (including the code test), or
make minor adjustments around the edges. What's missing in that pile of
commentary is broad-based support for a workable proposal.

Now if some proposal did get a lot of support, (say 70-80% or more favorable)
there's a good chance FCC would take that as consensus and run with it. No
restructuring proposal thus far has gotten near that much acceptance. So Carl
supported the ARRL petition, warts and all, in the hope it would carry the day.
(Just IMHO)

Which is why I'd like to see the K0HB proposal get an RM number. WHo knows what
the reaction might be?

(end side note).

A part of that support is based on the anti-BPL fight, too. The argument goes
like this: There are well over 320,000 Tech and Tech-Plus hams out there who
have either no HF/MF (those who haven't passed Element 1) or who have minimal
HF (those who have passed Element 1). Free upgrade to General would endow all
of them with a lot more HF/MF privileges, and hopefully a significant
percentage would set up HF/MF stations and use them - and protest BPL too.

In any event, he simply changed his mind in certain specific instances. Here
are some mo

For years Carl harangued us about "electronic paintball wars" and such,
referring to contests and DX-chasing. Also about "better modes and modulations"
including spread spectrum, appliance operators who have no idea what's behind
the panel, etc., etc.. Another pet peeve was vanity calls - he held on to his
old 2x3 6-land call even though he lives here in EPA.

Then, after the restructuring of 2000, he got his Extra. And a 2x1 vanity call.
And he racked up over 70 countries on HF SSB using a manufactured
transceiver.....

Not that there's anything wrong with any of it. But it sure was surreal to read
about! As you say, Mike - "it's all good".

Mike this is gonna come off a bit weird coming from a hardcore PCTA
but I learned that the Carl is basically an OK kinda guy. I met him
eyeball-to-eyball in the Emmaus PA area when Hare, W3HJ, Carl and I
were chasing BPL signals around that area together. I had dinner with
him and at one point threatened him with a code test which he took in
good humor etc. Today he and I continue to keep in touch on a number
of topics well beyond the code test thing.

Yup.

Gets down to firmly
establishing the fact that, with a few obvious exceptions, perceptions
of the overall characters of RRAPers based only on what they post here
can't be taken seriously.

Some of us are the same online and off, some are very different. There are some
folks I'd love to meet in person and others I'd actively avoid.

And I respond to who I like in the group. occasionally even Lenover21,
when I'm in a puckish mood! ;^)

. . . see above WRT to "obvious exceptions" . . .

bingo.

The guy was blind . . that was the worst of the
worst of the bad experiences I've had in the game. Madonna was right:
It's a material world. Yes, I fear for the future of ham radio.

I did not know that story. Makes me sick.

Oy! Just remember, Karma keeps a bank account, and pays back with
interest! Thank goodness you stopped to help the guy, Brian.

Gawd I was ****ed off at those jerks . . still am . . .

So the future of ham radio relies on those who are really interested
in radio for its own sake and are a lot more than "sort of"
interested. Those folks are out there, and will continue to be. But
they will not be attracted by lowering the requirements or trying to
make ham radio a sort of rf version of the internet.

Wow! That last paragraph is a real keeper, Jim. I may post it in my
shack, WYP of course....

Of course - just put my call at the end.

Jim's 100% on the money.

R R TU OM

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
.com...
(Brian Kelly) wrote in message
. com...
PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in message
...

Which at this point is a
dead topic since the code test is obviously not going away within any
visible timframe if ever.

Frankly, I'm amazed that FCC didn't MO&O it out of existence last
summer.

I think the code test flap is a universally dead issue at this point
in history. Except in this toxic no-counter swamp. Cecil got it right,
5wpm is "good enough" under today's condx and I agree with that and I
suspect that the FCC and the ARRL also silently agree too. The matter
was a helluva brawl back when shreikers from both poles were going at
each other here and elsewhere. Whatever. It's all worn out as is this
NG. The way I see it another reasonable and not unexpected regulatory
compromise has been reached. The NCTAs killed the 13 & 20wpm code
tests but didn't achieve their ultimate objective. Us PCTAs lost the
13 & 20wpm code tests but the 5wpm test lives on.

And the real truth may be even simpler. FCC enacted medical waivers back in
1990 at the request of a now-dead King via Papa Bush.

Those waivers effectively meant that nobody really had to go beyond the 5 wpm
test to get a US ham license. All it took was a doctor's note from *any* MD or
DO, and you could write the letter and get the doc to sign it. You didn't need
a diagnosis of any particular problem, nor any sort of permanent condition,
just a rather vague certification that for medical reasons it would be harder
for you to pass the test than the average bloke.

Do you know of *anyone* who tried and couldn't get a waiver? Or *any* doc who
was even questioned by FCC? I don't. But there was a lot of complaining in some
quarters about waivers, so FCC made 'em go away.

So I expect the
5wpm test to continue to be required for some considerable time
without further ado.

14 months since WRC2003 and nothing's changed....

Nobody got everything they wanted and nobody lost
everything. It's a typical compromise solution for a regulatory hot
potato. Welcome to America.

Yup.

On the other hand the FCC could drop the code test on Monday and life
would go on as usual.

Double yup.

So Cecil, Hare, innumerable others and even
Carl Anderson

Stevenson

Heh . . duh? Reminds me . . I owe him some e-mail . . he was having
some issues with the base of the big used Trylon tower I spotted for
him.

Like I said about ham antennas being more ME than EE...

for cripes sake, the Honcho Maximo of NCI wised up and
bailed out of here long ago leaving us to bicker mindlesssly,
circularly and endlessly with dim lights like Burke and the other
Anderson. WE'RE the RRAP stupids for bothering with any of it
Miccolis.

Who is bothering? I read a few posts, write a few, discuss interesting
topics with KB3EIA, N8UZE, and some others. Filtering what one reads
works wonders.

RRAP will prolly dribble along for years but it's pretty obvious that
it's slowly "losing membership".

Nothing slow about it...

Refresh me here James, I think it was around the time that I logged XG
that I/we started to hear a lot more signals from very far off places
than I/we could hear from US FD stations. So to hell with FD, let's
get back to basics and go dxing I sayithed to self. Worked the JA who
was in some other contest. Logged him too. Apparently Newington did
not disallow that one.

DX contacts count for FD. They give you a signal report, it counts.

They simpy doan give a **** abt FD logs good or
bogus.

Not true! The QSOs were good. There was one SP handing 'em out 2-3 a
minute later on - remember? They all counted.

DX qsos count; it's just that DX stations' logs aren't counted
competitively in the listings.

That's nice. You're the reason I don't bother reading the FD rules
'cause I know that you'll have 'em memorized, analyzed and carved six
ways from Sunday into yer headbone. Which spares me from all that
drudgery. It's always nice to have a "detail guy" like you on tap.

'zactly. Want a quick history of what the rules used to be, how the dates and
operating times evolved and when the first FD was?



Didn't think so.

A year or two ago the definition was changed so that FD covers not
just North America but SA too.

At least I caught that change. That ZF1 9A catagory bunch musta had a
blast.

Yeah mon.

Which means N2EY/Tierra del Fuego could
compete...

Oh just GO for it! Should I hold my breath?

Not really...

. . In the meanwhile the aformentioned collection of bull****ers
wasn't more than eight feet from him throuhout all of it. I gotta tell
you that in all my half century on the bands that was the worst of the
worst of the bad experiences I've had in the game. Madonna was right:
It's a material world. Yes, I fear for the future of ham radio.

I did not know that story. Makes me sick.

Now watch, somebody will spin it into being *your* fault.

I could care less.

But do not fear for the future of amateur radio too much. Here's why:

Back when you started, and to a lesser extent even when I started, ham
radio was populated mostly by folks who took it very seriously. "Radio
for its own sake" wasn't something most people were interested in. The
license process, operating skill requirements and equipment costs
alone insured that most hams had a considerable personal investment -
and the money was the least of it. Sure, there were some clueless folk
but they either learned or were really frustrated.

I agree with most of that.

Then a bunch of things happened. The cb boom made 2 way radio popular
and practical for lots of folks, the development of ssb and then fm
transceivers and solidstate made the equipment small, less expensive
and easier to use, etc. We got a lot of good hams, of course, but also
a sizable number who are only "sort of" interested, and who don't take
it that seriously, nor have a big personal investment. The whole code
test issue is really just an iceberg-tip for the concept of personal
investment.

Now we have the internet and cheap cell phones and GMRS/FRS. Which
have pulled away a lot of the folks who were "sort of" interested in
ham radio. That's why repeater use and 'honeydew' licensing is down -
much easier to just use the cell phone or FRS.

So the future of ham radio relies on those who are really interested
in radio for its own sake and are a lot more than "sort of"
interested.

That would take out probably 70% of the current licensees.

Most of that 70% which are inactive anyway.

Those folks are out there, and will continue to be. But
they will not be attracted by lowering the requirements or trying to
make ham radio a sort of rf version of the internet.

I think you're 95% right on all counts.

TU

All depends what you think the goal is. You're thinking the goal is to
put up
an antenna. It's not.

Right: PLONK again.

Another technique to watch for is the misremembering of a past event
in order to get your panties in a snarl. Such as the whole Cecil
thing. Or the whole K8MN A1 op thing. Or the way I've been
misquoted/misinterpreted...

I ignore the circle-jerk games around here, I can't be bothered.

'zactly.

I dumped the bait over the transom, I'm chumming for an on-the-air QSO
with NØIMD via the end-fed wire he claims he has. It's put up or shut
time time again around here. Tally Freaking Ho, this oughta be a real
gooder.

Don't hold yer breath. Watch - there will be all kinds of reasons it
won't happen. Like a certain Extra license that is still in its box.

We'll see. The prior RRAP vaguely similar event was not put together
overnight.

But when it came down to it, "pulling a Cecil" meant actually getting on the
air and meeting others on the air. *Cecil* was a stand-up guy about the whole
thing. The other Brian isn't. That's the bottom line.

And it will be spun so that somehow it's *your* fault...

Yawn.

Didja read my UP/URS-2 story about what probably really happened in T5? Wanna
bet that it's pretty darn close to the truth?

Not that we'll ever get the real story or even a straight answer...

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:


But when it came down to it, "pulling a Cecil" meant actually getting on the
air and meeting others on the air. *Cecil* was a stand-up guy about the whole
thing. The other Brian isn't. That's the bottom line.

No, not a "bottom line," just another denigration of someone who
refused a demand from a Lord High God of Radio(telegraphy) to
"sked" with "CW" at the appointed hour.

Mother superior* has outdone herself.

[* term does NOT have any religious connotation...]


And it will be spun so that somehow it's *your* fault...

Yawn.

Didja read my UP/URS-2 story about what probably really happened in T5? Wanna
bet that it's pretty darn close to the truth?

Not that we'll ever get the real story or even a straight answer...

Report back to us after your return from T5 land and tell us of your
findings, Lord High Gods of Radio(telegraphy).

Neither of you were there before...yet you are all so damn Expert on
the matter.

PCTA extras must stick together...and try to stick it to any NCTA
within sight and hearing (like General Order #1).

In article , PAMNO
(mother superior) writes:

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

for cripes sake, the Honcho Maximo of NCI wised up and
bailed out of here long ago leaving us to bicker mindlesssly,
circularly and endlessly with dim lights like Burke and the other
Anderson. WE'RE the RRAP stupids for bothering with any of it
Miccolis.

Who is bothering? I read a few posts, write a few, discuss interesting
topics with KB3EIA, N8UZE, and some others. Filtering what one reads
works wonders.

Carl only got to reap what he sowed.

Carl *used to* be one of the top name-callers, insulters, shouters, and
all-around behave-like-a-two-year-old posters here. Almost but not quite down
to Len Anderson's level of behavior.

Right. I'm the "only one" signing off posts for over a year using a
Yiddish pejorative meaning "penis head?"

I'm the "only one" who has implied opponents are pedophiles and
accusing them of spousal abuse...in addition to being "pathological
liars?"

Of course. Terrible behavior. Gratuitously egregious.

:-)

Mother superior should be aware of Jim Kehler, KH2D, and his
actions in here as one of the ardent (if not virulent) PCTA super
extras and the wonderful "No SSB International."

Mother superior* should be aware of one Eric June who tried to
take over that position in here...Cecil Moore [of the "live and let
live" saying as an NCTA] confounded him at every turn.

[* that is NOT a religious title]

Tsk, tsk, tsk. All that hopping up and down about "rude
behavior!" And to a Lord High God of Radio(telegraphy)!

Maybe you want your congressperson to start a bill to abrogate
all free and independent thought and expression by U.S. citizens
against the morse code test? That ought to end any conflict and
make you oh-so-happy.

"Tension, apprehension, and dissention have begun..." - from
Alfred Bester's "The Demolished Man."

With all the best of kindest regards for your moral superiority,

"Len Over 21" wrote


"Tension, apprehension, and dissention have begun..." - from
Alfred Bester's "The Demolished Man."


Pretensions of literacy?

"Sometime pool-pah exceeds the power of humans to comment." - from Kurt
Vonnegut's "Cat's Cradle"

Sunuvugun!*

With all kind wishes,

de Hans, K0HB




* There are only 2 "n"s in sunuvugun.

In article . net, "KØHB"
writes:

"Len Over 21" wrote

"Tension, apprehension, and dissention have begun..." - from
Alfred Bester's "The Demolished Man."

Pretensions of literacy?

Absolutely NO pretense, crusty old sea salt. As a many-times
published author in several different publications, I do have some
literacy background.

Not only that, I was a member of the first, and still surviving,
science fiction club (first worldwide, in fact) just down the street
a bit in North Hollywood. [SFWA] Need directions to get there?

Lots of the writers (not just science fiction) show up there from
time to time. I don't recall Vonnegut ever being there...he isn't
really mainstream SF, more of a literary-review favorite for the
Sunday supplements.

"Tension, apprehension, and dissention have begun..." :-)

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
.com...

. . . . . .

Those waivers effectively meant that nobody really had to go beyond the 5
wpm
test to get a US ham license. All it took was a doctor's note from *any* MD
or
DO, and you could write the letter and get the doc to sign it. You didn't
need
a diagnosis of any particular problem, nor any sort of permanent condition,
just a rather vague certification that for medical reasons it would be
harder
for you to pass the test than the average bloke.

Do you know of *anyone* who tried and couldn't get a waiver? Or *any* doc
who
was even questioned by FCC? I don't.

I don't even know anybody who got one of those waivers much less how
they pulled it off.

Nobody had to say they got one. I've known a few hams who did. All they needed
to do was write a letter and get *any* practicing MD or DO to sign it. FCC gave
detailed instructions about what info should be in the letter. Basically it
could be almost anything medically related.

But there was a lot of complaining in some
quarters about waivers, so FCC made 'em go away.

Once more the ADA cut both ways.

Nothing to do with ADA at all.

Waivers came about because ol' JY1 asked Papa Bush for a favor and the Prez
passed the buck down to FCC. FCC dreamed up the medical waiver thing, not any
handicapped-hams group. It became the law in 1990. The 2000 restructuring made
it a moot point.

So I expect the
5wpm test to continue to be required for some considerable time
without further ado.

Possibly. It's certainly not a high priority for FCC.

14 months since WRC2003 and nothing's changed....

There's a huge pile of updates of the ham regs which are overdue for
FCC review and revision. I expect that the code test issue will be
wrapped into some sort of major omnibus reworking of Part 97 a la the
Incentive Licensing package of 1968 or so except that this pass ought
to include a bunch more "real estate", 160 thru the millimeter bands
and far more topics "To take ham radio into the 21st century".
Someday. At their convenience. I'm not holding my breath here either.

Maybe. Or maybe just the opposite - tinker with the details but leave the basic
frame alone. Look at our license structure now - it's the linear descendant of
the 1951 restructuring.

That's nice. You're the reason I don't bother reading the FD rules
'cause I know that you'll have 'em memorized, analyzed and carved six
ways from Sunday into yer headbone. Which spares me from all that
drudgery. It's always nice to have a "detail guy" like you on tap.

'zactly. Want a quick history of what the rules used to be, how the dates
and
operating times evolved and when the first FD was?

....#$!@^#!*&#@!. . . NO Dammit! Arrrgh!

Didn't think so.

..$#&$!..RIGHT!

Here's a tidbit:

Back in the early '70s, there was a rules change that prohibited setting up
until the actual FD period. IOW you weren't supposed to do anything involving
setup until 2 PM Saturday EST. You can guess how well that one went over!

You already know the "aggregate mobile" story.

So the future of ham radio relies on those who are really interested
in radio for its own sake and are a lot more than "sort of"
interested.

That would take out probably 70% of the current licensees.

Most of that 70% which are inactive anyway.

In this respect I have my reservations abt 70% of the remaining 30%.

You know what the bands sound like during a contest. Yet even the big contests
like CQWW don't get more than about 50,000 hams on-air at one time, and most of
them are listening at any given moment.

So the number of truly active hams is but a fraction of the license totals.
Otherwise the bands would sound like a contest all the time.

I dumped the bait over the transom, I'm chumming for an on-the-air QSO
with NØIMD via the end-fed wire he claims he has. It's put up or shut
time time again around here. Tally Freaking Ho, this oughta be a real
gooder.

Don't hold yer breath. Watch - there will be all kinds of reasons it
won't happen. Like a certain Extra license that is still in its box.

We'll see. The prior RRAP vaguely similar event was not put together
overnight.

But when it came down to it, "pulling a Cecil" meant actually getting on
the
air and meeting others on the air. *Cecil* was a stand-up guy about the
whole thing. The other Brian isn't. That's the bottom line.

He "came through" exactly as as expected, he's as predictable as the
tides.

Whatever.

And it will be spun so that somehow it's *your* fault...

Yawn.

Didja read my UP/URS-2 story about what probably really happened in T5?

Yes.

Wanna
bet that it's pretty darn close to the truth?

Right off I dunno anything about current military HF comms. However it
strikes me that given Burke's job in that timeframe and place, running
around a USAF shipping/recieving dock with a clipboard chasing down
missing boxes, that he wouldn't have had much in the way of access to
HF comms gear. Not if decent security measures were in place. But like
I said I dunno so I'll pass.

Not that we'll ever get the real story or even a straight answer...

We already got the only "story" which matters.

Exactly. No big deal. I dunno why K4YZ makes such a big deal about it. Nobody
is complaining that they worked him but didn't get a card. So what's the beef?

73 de Jim, N2EY