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#141
March 18th 04, 08:29 PM
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#143
March 19th 04, 12:41 AM
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#144
March 19th 04, 01:58 AM
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(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message . com...
(William) wrote in message om... (Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message om... (William) wrote in message . com... (Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message . com... (William) wrote in message . com... You sure seemed to be doing a good job of it above. Thanks for coming clean and acknowledging that cellular telephones have played a huge role in emergency response communications. Here you go with putting words in other peoples post, MiniLennie... I DID NOT say they play a "huge role". They are important, but thier loss of service is a contingency planned for. So is the loss of the commercial and public service systems. Those plans include using Amateur Radio as a stop-gap. Can you/do you refute this? Yes, I can. Quoting Lean: "Alun, according to the Census Bureau's data as of 2003, there are 100 million cellular telephone subscriptions in the USA. That's about one for every three citizens. Rather large "spread," I'd say. :-) "If every licensed amateur in the USA had one useable radio, then the number of amateur radios would be one per about 430 citizens. Not as big a "spread. LHA / WMD" I'll add that there are about 265 million people in the US, and less than 700,000 licensed amateurs, who TAFKARJ will tell you some are dead, some have quit, some are expired, and many are inactive. Regardless of how many are alive and active, half don't use CW/Morse, so according to you overplayed and unrealistic disaster scenarios, they are useless. Right? Now, not every American Citizen has access to an amateur radio operator. I'd say most don't know even one amateur, and many don't know what ham radio is (Isn't that like CB?) I would hazard a quess that the average American Citizen DOES know someone with a cell phone. Cell phones are almost ubiquitous, so much so that they are annoyances. 100 million subscriptions, 265 million people. You do the math. What I HAVE stated in this and other forums is that Amateur Radio CONTINUES to provide a necessary and almost irreplaceable asset. To the exclusion of all other communications means. At least until you posted the above. An absolute Brian Burke mistruth. Brain, WHY do you insist on making assertions that ANYONE who might care to research can find out are so blatantly false? Do you ENJOY being proven a liar? Why do you leave out other forms of cummunications??? NO OTHER RADIO SERVICE provides the flexibility and utility that Amateur Radio does. You're simply wrong on that one. Amateur radio does not offer the flexibility and utility that cellular telephones provide. Oh...?!?! How? Because if there were 100 million amateur licensees in America like there are 100 million cellular telephone subscriptions, our bands would be overloaded and useless. CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW??? (this guy IS an idiot...Hope I get to see him at Dayton and tell him to his face...) I'd rather not meet you in person. You scare me. So stay away from me. When the cellsite is down, unaccessable, or overloaded, HOW do you communicate with your cellphone? When your ham radio is broke, how do you communicate with it? I challenge you to prove THAT otherwise, also. Challenges, challenges, challenges! That's a part of your problem, Don Quixoterobeson. Always making challenges. So far, Putz, you've not been up to ANY challenge. (no cajones) Is that a threat? These facts are not from some ARRL source...these assertions come from a plethora of govenmental, public and private agencies who have benefitted from the contributions of Amateur Radio and have expressed the intent to continue to include Amateur Radio in thier plans and programs. And cell phones. How well does a cellphone operate without a functioning cellsite, Brain? Don, if you can say my cell site is dead, I can say your ham radio is dead. When the repeater is down, I can switch to simplex...When the propagation is bad, I can switch bands...If FM is inappropriate, I can switch to a data mode or SSB. So far, Brain, you've not proved anything except your ignorance...but you've done THAT well... I said your radio is broke. Switch away for all the good it does you. Please DISPROVE ANYTHING I have said about Amateur Radio's role. Just did. No, you've not. You have made a foolish assertion that is NOT supported by a shred of evidence. Yes, I did. You only have one scenario in your head. That scenario is that cell phones won't work in an emergency. I have NEVER said anything even CLOSE to the idea that we're the only game in town. Quite the contrary. You omit any discussion that any other radio service or common carrier can provide emergency comms. That is a form of lying. First of all I have not "ommited" anything. I have discussed other services on many occassions...It happens THIS is a forum on Amateur Radio. Your emergency plan scenario that you are acting out this weekend is that cell phones won't be working. Am I wrong? I HAVE said we provide a service to those who make the plans and need the help. Until the emergency happens, you don't know who your customer might be or if you can provide a service to him or her. Ahhhh...but I do... You see, Mr Clueless, there are things called "MOU's", or "Memorandum of Understanding", that exist between agencies for just these instances. You have no MOU with me. You have no MOU with Larry. You have no MOU with Lean. Will you deny emergency comms to us if we needed them? Those of us who are actually involved in these types of activities prepare in advance for these issues. It's called "TRAINING". You trained for the Twin Towers attack? Did your exercise scenario shut down the cell system? Or did it actually work as actual 9/11 survivors said it worked? Is it possible to train or prepare for ALL eventualities...?!?! Of course not, but short of The Rapture or complete nuclear annihilation, I'd say most responding agencies have SOME plan in place. ARES has MOU's with nearly every state EMA in the Union. That pretty well puts them in a positon to be able to train with just about everyone they will need to be in touch with during any given emergency. Most American Citizens are not responding agencies, don't have MOUs, aren't amateur radio operators. What do they use? Cell Phones. Unless your emergencies are always predictable, in which case they are not emergencies. Sure they are. Can anyone say exactly WHEN an emergency will occur? Of course not! But I know, with unfaltering certainty, that tornadoes will come, rivers will flood, buildings will burn, aircraft will crash, power grids will fail, etc etc etc. Are YOU saying that these events, which we KNOW will occur at some time, are NOT emergencies simply becasue we know they occur? You got me there. In all of the situations above, how will the average Joe communicate? Phones and comms did go out in some areas here. Ham radio turned out to be a valuable asset. Power went out north of here. Other than power, there were no reports of comms going out. Do you have a newspaper clipping detailing the comm outages? How about SITREP's from OES/EMA's detailing Amateur Radio involvement? You'll have to ask Dee. I am asking you. You'll have to ask Dee. Put in the spot of being asked to validate his assertions, he wants to play silly sandlot games. OK... That pretty well validates my assessment of him....Brian Burke is a coward. Sounds like more challenges. You really want to get into it, don't you? Just becasue the papers don't name each and every resource employed in an emergency doesn't mean they weren't involved. That's a LennieRant tactic that any 3rd grader can see through. And you're entirely up to the task. Congrats? Did you say that cell phones played no role in providing communications during the east coast power outage? Absolutely not. You'll please quote the post wherein I made such an assertion, Brain...?!?! Just making a clarification. So you do say that cellular telephones played a major role in the 9/11 attacks and in the summer power outages? You interject adjectives again, Your Cowardness. You also tried to skate around answering MY request to cite the post wherein you alledge I say such a thing... Cellphones were nearly USELESS in the initial stages of the attacks in NYC due to overload and loss of cell sites. This is documented fact. Nope. Lots of people used their cell phones. One even used his phone to call home and leave a goodbye message to his wife on their answereing machine. He didn't use amateur radio or CW. Did you say that cell sites don't have emergency backup generators? Absolutely not. You'll please quote the post wherein I made such an assertion, Brain...?!?! Just making a clarification. So you do say that cellular sites are capable of operating in an emergency? Why are you being an idiot? Was this a birth defect, or have you been studying...??? You just cannot bring yourself to say that cellular telephones have any use whatsoever in an emergency. Just making a clarification. Just trying to get your non-verbals on paper. No clarification needed, Brain, unless you have a rectal-cranial inversion that you need resolved (which is reasonably apparant from your posts) Nope. I'm five by. As for "non-verbals", we're still waiting for YOUR "non-verbals", ie: from whom you got permission to operate Amateur Radio in Somalia, and by what United Nations authorizaton that person had to GIVE you that authority... I thought we were talking about emergency communications, not amateur past times in a forward location. I can remember the names of every commanding officer or OIC I served under in the USMC going back to my Series Commander in boot camp in 1974. You can't pony-up a name of a guy you served in a war zone with...?!?! Forward location. Not a war zone though the VFW thinks so. "Emergency comms" are NOT only when the wires are down or the cell site destroyed, Brain. JJ thinks they are. My cell site is always down, his ham radio is always up. That is the picture he paints. Is it? Is that the picture you paint? Perhaps if you were actively involved in the programs of some disaster mitigation agency you might have a better insight as to what Amateur Radio's OTHER roles are...?!?! I was a MARS volunteer and BST member. I have no problem with that concept. But there sure are a lot of DP planners running around with cellular telephones nowadays. Yes, there are. And they still depend on Amateur Radio organizations to fill essential billets in EOC's. Thus, military installations can work with their IMD to set up a BST under MARS. Much better outcome than relying on people who CHOP themselves to the ARC, Salvation Army, County EOC, CAP, Homeless Shelter, Friends of the Library, and Bicycle Rodeos. When was the last time YOU were in an EOC as a functionary, Brain? When was the last time you participated in ANY disaster mitigation exercise in ANY role? I do enough on the job re mitigation. You and Dee simply cannot accept that an unlicensed service has played a major role in emergency comms. What "unlicensed service"...?!?! CB? FRS? MURS? Part 15 compliant devices? Sure. Why not? OK, Brain...YOUR "scenario" was "that an unlicensed service has played a major role in emergency comms". Now...provide me with some example of one of those "unlicensed services" playing a "major role". To ME, at least, "major role" means that SOME sort of crucial event was dependent upon one of those "services" being able to render a meaningful, positive outcome. So...YOU put it out there, let's see you come up with some pertinent examples. And remember, Brain, "major" was YOUR adjective...NOT mine. I'm just so happy that you finally acknowledged that mere cell phones play a major role in disaster communications. Or did you? I said they played a role...just like Amateur Radio does. Now...You made some silly assertions that I've asked you to substantiate. You got the cajones to come up with valid answers, or are we to be treated to more of your lame sandlot excuses...??? Steve, K4YZ |
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#145
March 19th 04, 02:08 AM
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William wrote:
I would hazard a quess that the average American Citizen DOES know someone with a cell phone. Cell phones are almost ubiquitous, so much so that they are annoyances. 100 million subscriptions, 265 million people. You do the math. And the network becomes useless in an emergency, that is why military and civil officials do not consider the cell network to be a viable means of communications in a major disaster, it isn't even in their emergency planning. Ham radio is. So next time there is a major disaster, have fun punching numbers into you little cell phone attempting to call twenty of your friends to warn them or tell them to, "turn on your tee-vee", and when you can't get through because of all the other cell users flooding the system doing the same, you can amuse yourself by playing a game on your phone which has now become nothing more than a game-boy. |
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#146
March 19th 04, 02:11 AM
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JJ wrote in message ...
William wrote: For military use, absolutely. I wouldn't expect a senior military official to respond differently. No, not just for military use, they are coordinating between military, police, fire, Civil Defense, and other civil agencies, and cell phones play no part. Then encryption is a handicap. Use megaphones. Now lets talk about Average Citizen (AC). AC has actually used cellular telephones IN the 9/11 emergency. Many ACs had successful communications. AC has greater access to the cellular telephone system than they have to amateur radio. For many ACs, cellular is their emergency comms. Do you doubt it? It dosen't even work well for the AC when the networks become so overloaded you can't get a call through. Put 100 million amateurs on our bands and you think you can get a message thru? The AC is not participating in official emergency communicatins, they are making calls to say, "Im OK", or "turn on your TV", and other such non official emergency calls. When Sounds like the health and welfare traffic that hams get to pass. something like 9/11 happens everyone with a cell phone wants to call twenty other people making the system usless for any official emergency communicatioins. Weren't there some buried firemen that used a cell phone to call for help and were rescued? The cell phone network is not a consideration amoung government and civil agencies for emergency communications, ham radio is. The average citizen doesn't know a ham. Who/What do they turn to? Is this where you go into denial mode? |
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#147
March 19th 04, 02:13 AM
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#148
March 19th 04, 02:17 AM
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William wrote:
You just cannot bring yourself to say that cellular telephones have any use whatsoever in an emergency. For handling official emergency traffic they are not of any use, that is why the military and civil officials dismiss them completely from their emergency planning. They do include ham radio. |
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#149
March 19th 04, 02:41 AM
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"William" wrote in message om... Put 100 million amateurs on our bands and you think you can get a message thru? You are obviously unaware that in an emergency, the government can and does declare designated frequencies off limits to general usage for the duration of that emergency. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
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#150
March 19th 04, 04:11 AM
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In article , Leo
writes: On 18 Mar 2004 20:29:09 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote: In article , (Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes: Yours truly will be at the EOC in Nashville. As of this hour I do not find the names of "Brian Burke" or "Leonard Anderson" among those consultants being brought in by FEMA, The Army Corps of Engineers, TEMA, or other supporting agencies. Isn't it a pity? [for you, that is] :-) Will you be having a press conference afterwards and signing autographs for your adoring fans? Giving out 8x10 glossies? Maybe the Blue Angels will perform a fly-over and aerobatic demonstration at the conclusion? If so, find out who is one of the Solo pilots. That name may come as a surprise. :-) That would be Maj. Len Anderson, USMC. A relative, perhaps? Not a relative...but isn't so terribly IRONIC, though!!!! Imagine, a real live commissioned U.S. Marine Corps Officer and an F-18 Hornet PILOT with that name!!!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oops, let myself cut and paste from the mighty CAP ace's postings. My apologies. Oops again, I spelled with a C and E instead of two S! BWAHAHAHAHA.... (this is too easy) "It just writes itself..." LHA / WMD |
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