In article m, "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

"William" wrote in message
. com...
Put 100 million amateurs on our bands and you think you can get a
message thru?

You are obviously unaware that in an emergency, the government can and does
declare designated frequencies off limits to general usage for the duration
of that emergency.

Right, Mama Dee, that's "exactly" what happened after the second
hijacked airliner crashed into the WTC towers, didn't it?

Right...just like the Loma Prieta and Northridge earthquakes when
the government ordered every radio thing be all ham emergency...

Right...just like all the southwest and northwest firestorms had
every radio commandeered for emergency use.

Right...just like every hurricane striking the east coast has all radios
off limits by Order.

Right...except the broadcast people, the news people, the Public
Safety Radio Services people, the utility radio (PLMRS) people,
the activated National Guards people, FEMA, etc., etc., etc. were
all using their radios as they usually would WITHOUT any nasty
gubmint orders.

I am saddened that your local telephone infrastructure has such
poor service wherever you live. However, here in the sunny
Greater Los Angeles area the telephone infrastructure was quite
normal after the first two hours of the Northridge quake. That was
ten years ago, of course, and the cell phones weren't as many
but neither were there as many cell sites. It all evened out.

But, in your scenario of the mind, "all cell sites fall down during
emergencies" and only ham radio can save everyone. In real
life they sure didn't. Don't let that trouble you. We are all
children to you.

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(William) writes:

JJ wrote in message
...
William wrote:

For military use, absolutely. I wouldn't expect a senior military
official to respond differently.

No, not just for military use, they are coordinating between military,
police, fire, Civil Defense, and other civil agencies, and cell phones
play no part.

Then encryption is a handicap. Use megaphones.

Signal flags by day, torches by night were good enough for the U.S.
Army during the American Civil War...on both sides. Anybody with
sight could read all of them...and did! :-)

Now lets talk about Average Citizen (AC). AC has actually used
cellular telephones IN the 9/11 emergency. Many ACs had successful
communications. AC has greater access to the cellular telephone
system than they have to amateur radio. For many ACs, cellular is
their emergency comms.

Do you doubt it?

It dosen't even work well for the AC when the networks become so
overloaded you can't get a call through.

Put 100 million amateurs on our bands and you think you can get a
message thru?

"CW always get through..." :-)

The AC is not participating in
official emergency communicatins, they are making calls to say, "Im OK",
or "turn on your TV", and other such non official emergency calls. When

Sounds like the health and welfare traffic that hams get to pass.

something like 9/11 happens everyone with a cell phone wants to call
twenty other people making the system usless for any official emergency
communicatioins.

Weren't there some buried firemen that used a cell phone to call for
help and were rescued?

The cell phone network is not a consideration amoung government and
civil agencies for emergency communications, ham radio is.

The average citizen doesn't know a ham. Who/What do they turn to?

Irrelevant to the fantasies of emergencies. ACs go to Piggly Wiggly
for ham. Those are in the cold meat department pretending they
are beef.

Is this where you go into denial mode?

Riverine warfare..."denial is a river in egypt."

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
.com...
(William) wrote in message
. com...
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
. com...
(William) wrote in message
.com...
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
.com...
(William) wrote in message
.com...

You sure seemed to be doing a good job of it above. Thanks for coming
clean and acknowledging that cellular telephones have played a huge
role in emergency response communications.

Here you go with putting words in other peoples post,
MiniLennie...

I DID NOT say they play a "huge role". They are important, but
thier loss of service is a contingency planned for. So is the loss of
the commercial and public service systems. Those plans include using
Amateur Radio as a stop-gap.

Can you/do you refute this?

Yes, I can.

Quoting Lean:

"Alun, according to the Census Bureau's data as of 2003, there are 100
million cellular telephone subscriptions in the USA. That's about one
for every three citizens. Rather large "spread," I'd say. :-)

"If every licensed amateur in the USA had one useable radio, then the
number of amateur radios would be one per about 430 citizens. Not as
big a "spread.

LHA / WMD"

I'll add that there are about 265 million people in the US, and less
than 700,000 licensed amateurs, who TAFKARJ will tell you some are
dead, some have quit, some are expired, and many are inactive.
Regardless of how many are alive and active, half don't use CW/Morse,
so according to you overplayed and unrealistic disaster scenarios,
they are useless. Right?

Now, not every American Citizen has access to an amateur radio
operator. I'd say most don't know even one amateur, and many don't
know what ham radio is (Isn't that like CB?)

Mama Dee claims there are some Americans who don't even
know what a "CB" is!

TAFKARJ claims that "CB" originated in 1946...except that
"11 meters" is not at 465 MHz. :-)

ARRL ought to get Broose out there telling Americans about
"CB." :-)

I would hazard a quess that the average American Citizen DOES know
someone with a cell phone. Cell phones are almost ubiquitous, so much
so that they are annoyances. 100 million subscriptions, 265 million
people. You do the math.

The gunnery nurse has a maximum count base of 20. :-)

What I HAVE stated in this and other forums is that Amateur Radio
CONTINUES to provide a necessary and almost irreplaceable asset.

To the exclusion of all other communications means. At least until
you posted the above.

An absolute Brian Burke mistruth.

Brain, WHY do you insist on making assertions that ANYONE who
might care to research can find out are so blatantly false?

Do you ENJOY being proven a liar?

Why do you leave out other forms of cummunications???

Brian, the gunnery nurse doesn't KNOW of any other form of
communications...

He is a Believer. If he reads some political screed about
"emergency service" he thinks that ALL hams do that and
ALL got into amateur radio to be "emergency communicators."

NO
OTHER RADIO SERVICE provides the flexibility and utility that Amateur
Radio does.

You're simply wrong on that one. Amateur radio does not offer the
flexibility and utility that cellular telephones provide.

Oh...?!?! How?

Because if there were 100 million amateur licensees in America like
there are 100 million cellular telephone subscriptions, our bands
would be overloaded and useless.

CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW???

His battery needs recharging?

(this guy IS an idiot...Hope I get to see him at Dayton and tell
him to his face...)

I'd rather not meet you in person. You scare me.

So stay away from me.

I think he is a fascinating example...of aberration and political
icon worship at the Church of St. Hiram.

When the cellsite is down, unaccessable, or overloaded, HOW do you
communicate with your cellphone?

When your ham radio is broke, how do you communicate with it?

He THROWS it? :-)

His radios NEVER break. They always work. He can march
50 miles with a Yaecomwood on his back if he has on a
uniform.

I challenge you to prove THAT otherwise, also.

Challenges, challenges, challenges! That's a part of your problem,
Don Quixoterobeson. Always making challenges.

So far, Putz, you've not been up to ANY challenge. (no cajones)

Is that a threat?

The gunnery nurse would like you to THINK that.

He may also think Kim and Dee have "cojones." :-)

These facts are not from some ARRL source...these assertions
come
from a plethora of govenmental, public and private agencies who
have
benefitted from the contributions of Amateur Radio and have
expressed
the intent to continue to include Amateur Radio in thier plans and
programs.

And cell phones.

How well does a cellphone operate without a functioning cellsite,
Brain?

Don, if you can say my cell site is dead, I can say your ham radio is
dead.

When the repeater is down, I can switch to simplex...When the
propagation is bad, I can switch bands...If FM is inappropriate, I can
switch to a data mode or SSB.

So far, Brain, you've not proved anything except your
ignorance...but you've done THAT well...

I said your radio is broke. Switch away for all the good it does you.

His radios never break. Doesn't matter. He uses CW and "CW
gets through when nothing else will," including inoperative
transmitters and electric power failure. :-)

Please DISPROVE ANYTHING I have said about Amateur Radio's
role.

Just did.

No, you've not. You have made a foolish assertion that is NOT
supported by a shred of evidence.

Yes, I did. You only have one scenario in your head. That scenario
is that cell phones won't work in an emergency.

I have NEVER said anything even CLOSE to the idea that we're the
only game in town. Quite the contrary.

You omit any discussion that any other radio service or common carrier
can provide emergency comms. That is a form of lying.

First of all I have not "ommited" anything. I have discussed
other services on many occassions...It happens THIS is a forum on
Amateur Radio.

Your emergency plan scenario that you are acting out this weekend is
that cell phones won't be working.

Am I wrong?

Only the gunnery nurse and any other PCTA is "right" in this
newsgroup. Everyone else is "wrong."

I HAVE said we provide a service to those who make the plans
and need the help.

Until the emergency happens, you don't know who your customer might be
or if you can provide a service to him or her.

Ahhhh...but I do...

You see, Mr Clueless, there are things called "MOU's", or
"Memorandum of Understanding", that exist between agencies for just
these instances.

You have no MOU with me. You have no MOU with Larry. You have no MOU
with Lean.

Nooo, man, dat guy he got a mean MOUt!

He has a constant "MOM" (Memorandum of Misunderstanding).

Will you deny emergency comms to us if we needed them?

He will allow them if, and only if, you have the proper credentials,
permits, etc., all witnessed by hisself.

Those of us who are actually involved in these types of activities
prepare in advance for these issues. It's called "TRAINING".

You trained for the Twin Towers attack?

He might have stood at a CAP airport runway centerline, posing
as a tall skyscraper...?

Did your exercise scenario shut down the cell system?

"Cell sites ALWAYS fail in an emergency..." [PCTA motto]

Or did it actually work as actual 9/11 survivors said it worked?

He won't believe it unless the whole thing is written up by the
ARRL. That's the "official" version.

Is it possible to train or prepare for ALL eventualities...?!?!
Of course not, but short of The Rapture or complete nuclear
annihilation, I'd say most responding agencies have SOME plan in
place.

ARES has MOU's with nearly every state EMA in the Union. That
pretty well puts them in a positon to be able to train with just about
everyone they will need to be in touch with during any given
emergency.

Most American Citizens are not responding agencies, don't have MOUs,
aren't amateur radio operators.

What do they use?

Cell Phones.

The gunnery nurse isn't the average American Citizen. :-)

He has "seven hostile actions" all in his "jacket."

Unless your emergencies are always predictable, in which case they are
not emergencies.

Sure they are.

Can anyone say exactly WHEN an emergency will occur? Of course
not! But I know, with unfaltering certainty, that tornadoes will
come, rivers will flood, buildings will burn, aircraft will crash,
power grids will fail, etc etc etc.

Are YOU saying that these events, which we KNOW will occur at
some time, are NOT emergencies simply becasue we know they occur?

You got me there. In all of the situations above, how will the
average Joe communicate?

To him the "average Joe" will have to beg for mercy, on their knees.

Phones and comms did go out in some areas here. Ham radio
turned out to be
a valuable asset.

Power went out north of here. Other than power, there were no
reports
of comms going out. Do you have a newspaper clipping detailing
the
comm outages?

How about SITREP's from OES/EMA's detailing Amateur Radio
involvement?

You'll have to ask Dee.

I am asking you.

You'll have to ask Dee.

Put in the spot of being asked to validate his assertions, he
wants to play silly sandlot games. OK... That pretty well validates
my assessment of him....Brian Burke is a coward.

Sounds like more challenges. You really want to get into it, don't
you?

He has more testosterone than smarts...which is not a great deal...

Or, maybe he wants to open a USMC recruiting station in his
fantasy of "Clan of the Cave Bear?"

I think he just wants to beat you up in the schoolyard when
classes are over...

Just becasue the papers don't name each and every resource
employed in an emergency doesn't mean they weren't involved.
That's a
LennieRant tactic that any 3rd grader can see through.

And you're entirely up to the task. Congrats?

Did you say that cell phones played no role in providing
communications during the east coast power outage?

Absolutely not. You'll please quote the post wherein I made such
an assertion, Brain...?!?!

Just making a clarification. So you do say that cellular telephones
played a major role in the 9/11 attacks and in the summer power
outages?

You interject adjectives again, Your Cowardness. You also tried
to skate around answering MY request to cite the post wherein you
alledge I say such a thing...

Cellphones were nearly USELESS in the initial stages of the
attacks in NYC due to overload and loss of cell sites. This is
documented fact.

Nope. Lots of people used their cell phones. One even used his phone
to call home and leave a goodbye message to his wife on their
answereing machine.

He didn't use amateur radio or CW.

That can't be true...the ARRL never put THAT in their web page as
"official."

Did you say that cell sites don't have emergency backup generators?

Absolutely not. You'll please quote the post wherein I made such
an assertion, Brain...?!?!

Just making a clarification. So you do say that cellular sites are
capable of operating in an emergency?

Why are you being an idiot? Was this a birth defect, or have you
been studying...???

You just cannot bring yourself to say that cellular telephones have
any use whatsoever in an emergency.

He is captured in the world of his inner fantasy. That is one of
absolutes and only He can determine what is "correct" in there.

Just making a clarification. Just trying to get your non-verbals on
paper.

No clarification needed, Brain, unless you have a rectal-cranial
inversion that you need resolved (which is reasonably apparant from
your posts)

Nope. I'm five by.

As for "non-verbals", we're still waiting for YOUR "non-verbals",
ie: from whom you got permission to operate Amateur Radio in Somalia,
and by what United Nations authorizaton that person had to GIVE you
that authority...

I thought we were talking about emergency communications, not amateur
past times in a forward location.

I don't think the gunnery nurse fully recognized "chain of command"
or that commissioned officers could order Him around... :-)

It might have escaped notice, but the gunnery nurse's "commission"
in the TN State Guard must have expired or whatever those things
do. Pity that. Another uniform of his down the tubes...

I can remember the names of every commanding officer or OIC I
served under in the USMC going back to my Series Commander in boot
camp in 1974. You can't pony-up a name of a guy you served in a war
zone with...?!?!

Forward location. Not a war zone though the VFW thinks so.

He was in "seven hostile actions." Strange, he can't even name ONE
of those in any detail whatsoever! :-)

"Emergency comms" are NOT only when the wires are down or the
cell site destroyed, Brain.

JJ thinks they are. My cell site is always down, his ham radio is
always up. That is the picture he paints.

Is it?

Is that the picture you paint?

With a paint-by-number kit...

Perhaps if you were actively involved in the programs of some
disaster mitigation agency you might have a better insight as to what
Amateur Radio's OTHER roles are...?!?!

I was a MARS volunteer and BST member. I have no problem with that
concept. But there sure are a lot of DP planners running around with
cellular telephones nowadays.

Yes, there are. And they still depend on Amateur Radio
organizations to fill essential billets in EOC's.

Thus, military installations can work with their IMD to set up a BST
under MARS. Much better outcome than relying on people who CHOP
themselves to the ARC, Salvation Army, County EOC, CAP, Homeless
Shelter, Friends of the Library, and Bicycle Rodeos.

Yup, all SOP with MOUs, ASAP.

When was the last time YOU were in an EOC as a functionary,
Brain? When was the last time you participated in ANY disaster
mitigation exercise in ANY role?

I do enough on the job re mitigation.

Hey, Brian, yon gunnery nurse are gonna play Let's Pretend with
a "simulated" earthquake. They will shake in their boots to make
like the earth moved for them. Maybe they will have a "hostile
action" too and award pretty decorations for all of that. High fives
all around (simulated, of course).

I can't wait for the documentary movie of the event to be shown on
the History Channel.

LHA / WMD

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/18/2004 9:48 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

JJ wrote in message
...

I ask him
about the use of cell phones during such times, he just laughed and said
that the cell phone network was useless for any emergency comms in such
a scenario.

For military use, absolutely. I wouldn't expect a senior military
official to respond differently.

Hey Billy Clueless...

Guess who's in charge if inland disaster response in the United States?

(1) The local and state agencies of the affected state, then:

(2) FEMA, then:

(3) The United States Army.

So...ya think that General's ONLY cnvern is calling in a fire mission with
those radios, Brain?!?!

You laid claim to having been a MARS BST member...were the ONLY
"comms" that you supported tactical or strategic military traffic...?!?!

(Refore you answer, REMEMBER that I was also a member of USAFMARS and am
VERY familiar with MARS programs and policies...then AND now...)

He also works with The Office
of Homeland Defense on emergengy communications issues and he confirmed
that the OHD is attempting to intergrate Amateur Radio in their plans
for emergency comms.

As they should; the military has backups to backups. Redundancy
equals Survivability.

From the Prince of the Putz who keeps arguning AGAINST the concept of
Amateur Radio AS a redundent communications program, this is funny!

This is the VERY thing most of "us" have ben arguing, but you keep trying
to denounce as false!

Now lets talk about Average Citizen (AC). AC has actually used
cellular telephones IN the 9/11 emergency. Many ACs had successful
communications. AC has greater access to the cellular telephone
system than they have to amateur radio. For many ACs, cellular is
their emergency comms.

Do you doubt it?

For sending the police to an accident, fire, or medical emergency, yes,
this is "AC's" "emergency comms".

But you are arguing apples and oranges. The "emergency comms" being
argued here is NOT the average citizen's call for "routine" 9-1-1 service. Not
by a magnitude.

Nice try to skew the numbers, Brain.

Steve, K4YZ

]Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/18/2004 8:13 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
.com...

More evidence that this coward has nothing valid to offer except
childish sandlot accusations. Did we expect anything less?

Steve, K4YZ

From the #1 namecaller and bully on RRAP?

Try taking the high-raod sometime.

Oh NO, Brain, I am quite clearly #2...probably #3...Your Mentor gets crack
at #1 without peer!

And I see you're in the LennieRage mode, again! More typos = Rage!

See ya!

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/19/2004 12:03 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article m, "Dee D.
Flint"
writes:

"William" wrote in message
.com...
Put 100 million amateurs on our bands and you think you can get a
message thru?

You are obviously unaware that in an emergency, the government can and does
declare designated frequencies off limits to general usage for the duration
of that emergency.

Right, Mama Dee, that's "exactly" what happened after the second
hijacked airliner crashed into the WTC towers, didn't it?

Was it necessary?

Right...just like the Loma Prieta and Northridge earthquakes when
the government ordered every radio thing be all ham emergency...

Nope...but they did declare a communicaitons emergency and certain
discreet HF frequencies WERE made hands-off to "routine" Amateur use...Just
likes dozens of other times they've done so for other like incidents.

Right...just like all the southwest and northwest firestorms had
every radio commandeered for emergency use.

Nice try at scare tactics...Except the only thing "scary" here is that
people like you are allowed to procreate without control.

Right...just like every hurricane striking the east coast has all radios
off limits by Order.

"Every"...?!?!

Certainly not.

Does the FCC order "communications emergencies" based upon these events?
They certainly do.

Right...except the broadcast people, the news people, the Public
Safety Radio Services people, the utility radio (PLMRS) people,
the activated National Guards people, FEMA, etc., etc., etc. were
all using their radios as they usually would WITHOUT any nasty
gubmint orders.

And used them well.

But NOT for the types of communications that were supported by Amateur
Radio...that's the PURPOSE of Amateur Radio...to relieve those other services
of having to worry about that.

I am saddened that your local telephone infrastructure has such
poor service wherever you live. However, here in the sunny
Greater Los Angeles area the telephone infrastructure was quite
normal after the first two hours of the Northridge quake. That was
ten years ago, of course, and the cell phones weren't as many
but neither were there as many cell sites. It all evened out.

Good for them. The incident was in a localized area, and I'd be very
dissappointed if the local utilities COULDN'T make this "fix" in a hurry.

But even MORE unfortuntate for YOU, Your Scumminess, is that YOU and YOU
ALONE keep trying to use the Northridge Earthquake as some "evidence" that
Amateur Radio is of no value in an emergency. That was ONE event in over 90
years of archived Amateur histroy.

I say unfortunate for you because YOU keep making these assinine
assertions only to have one report after another of Amateur Radio's services
being deployed in the very manner YOU say they aren't...

But, in your scenario of the mind, "all cell sites fall down during
emergencies" and only ham radio can save everyone. In real
life they sure didn't. Don't let that trouble you. We are all
children to you.

In real life, Lennie, NO ONE has made such an assinine assertion...

Only you in "support" of your rants.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/18/2004 2:29 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In southern California we don't need any "simulations" of
earthquakes. We have the REAL THING. :-)

So...you are telling us that the disaster response agencies in Southern
California DON'T stage practice events?

Shall I start posting some references that prove you wrong, or shall we
condier your nose justly tweaked once again, and you admit an error...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: Leo
Date: 3/18/2004 5:18 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

On 18 Mar 2004 20:29:09 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:

Maybe the Blue Angels will perform a fly-over and aerobatic
demonstration at the conclusion? If so, find out who is one
of the Solo pilots. That name may come as a surprise. :-)

That would be Maj. Len Anderson, USMC.

A relative, perhaps?

I know two "Len Anderson"'s here in SE Tennessee...

Thankfully, both of them are responsible, thoughtful men of reputable
character.

Unlike the "Len Anderson" who posts to RRAP.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/18/2004 10:11 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article , Leo

writes:

That would be Maj. Len Anderson, USMC.

A relative, perhaps?

Not a relative...but isn't so terribly IRONIC, though!!!!

Ironic? Perhaps.

But I wonder how he'd react to reading posts written by a like-named
person who tries to embellish his military "career" by associating himself with
men who were KIA 3 years before you were in the Armed Forces...?!?!

Imagine, a real live commissioned U.S. Marine Corps Officer
and an F-18 Hornet PILOT with that name!!!!!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oops, let myself cut and paste from the mighty CAP ace's postings.

My apologies.

Oops again, I spelled with a C and E instead of two S!

BWAHAHAHAHA.... (this is too easy)

Being foolish IS "too easy" for you, Lennie. Waaaaaaaaaay too easy.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: Mike Coslo
Date: 3/18/2004 1:16 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Steve Robeson, K4CAP wrote:
JJ wrote in message
...

And witless William also wrote:

Oh oh! how on earth will their be any emergency services, not to
mention calling out for Pizza? ;^)

For EMS, there's RADIO.

For PIZZA, there's the HUMVEE and a Duty Runner ! ! ! !

Yours truly will be at the EOC in Nashville. As of this hour I
do not find the names of "Brian Burke" or "Leonard Anderson" among
those consultants being brought in by FEMA, The Army Corps of
Engineers, TEMA, or other supporting agencies.

I heard they were planning on checking in with their cellphones as part

of the CYHMNEPT (Can You Hear Me Now Emergency Preparedness Team) 8^)

I am sure there will be lot's of THAT going on! =)

Steve, K4YZ