Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/19/2004 6:09 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

JJ wrote in message
...


As far as millitary and civil authorities are concerned for official
emergency comms... a big *yes*.

Are you the SECDEF? Are you the Director of FEMA?

You paint with a broad brush and without authority.

That makes it grafitti.

He needs to be a governmenal official to paint now?

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: JJ
Date: 3/19/2004 11:33 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Len Over 21 wrote:



TAFKARJ claims that "CB" originated in 1946...except that
"11 meters" is not at 465 MHz. :-)

There was a band at that frequency that citizens could apply for and
use, thus a "citizens band" or "cb".

JJ...you'll have to forgive Lennie...He get's caught up in his own
rantings from time to time.

Even the 11 meter allocation was "officially" called the "Citizen's Radio
Service". The term "Citizen's Band" came much later.

Yes, "CB" generally refers to the 11 meter allocation, however Class D CB
IS afterall, just one subpart of Part 95. Your emergency plan scenario
that you are acting out this weekend is

that cell phones won't be working.

Am I wrong?

As far as using the cell network for official emergency comms, you can
consider it not working. In times of a major emergency it becomes
useless for anything but attempting to make a call.

Not in all cases, of course, but enough of them that the Big Dogs of
"emergency comms" plan for it's demise and have plans ready to implement in
case it happens.

It just eats away at Lennie and Brain's rants that those plans include
Amateur Radio to the degree that they do. No problem...Just makes them look
that much more foolish.

As if they NEEDED to look more foolish!

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/19/2004 7:21 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In the WTC Attack during 11 Sep 01, the NYC Emergency
Communications Center (in an adjacent building) was largely
destroyed by falling debris, also severing many trunk lines
of the telephone system. NYC police and fire units did work-
arounds using their own radios in a relay system to several
centrals, calling in other agencies as well as special units to
help. Some cell phone service did work, regardless of myth to
the contrary and some wired phone service still worked, used
by almost anyone on the WTC Attack scene. Amateur radio
did not play any significant part (if any at all) during the few
hours after the Attack on the WTC.

However Amateur Radio DID play a "major role" in the following DAYS of
post-incident recovery.

Not even the most 'diehard' Amateur Radio supporter suggests that Amateur
Radio is the "primary" source of emergency communications unless a ham just
happens to be "in the middle" of it and uses a radio to "call it in".

That HAS happened and CONTINUES to happen on a fairly regular basis.,
especially wilderness areas that have more trees than cellsites.

Which one, I have several, what are the odds they are all down at the
same time? How many cell phones do you have?

Since neither you nor your equipment is identified and we don't
know the working status of your "several" radios, the above is
just a brag claim of no intrinsic value.

Just as are YOUR numerous claims of having some sort of "monitoring
station" set up at home. Beyond a cordless telephone, TV, and TV remote, I
seriously doubt you to have anything capable of converting RF to AF.

I am far more likely to accept JJ's claims than yours. Especially since
I've enver seen him post anything that can be called anything even close to
untrue.

YOU, on the otherhand, are a bit on the "prolific" side of
mistruthful.......

As far as using the cell network for official emergency comms, you can
consider it not working. In times of a major emergency it becomes
useless for anything but attempting to make a call.

That is a popular myth but it remains only a myth.

It is not a myth. It has happened.

Anything that HAS occured is NOT a myth.

The cellular telephone network is part of the telephone infrastructure
and is intimately connected with the local exchange's switching unit.
That switching unit is designed to handle only a fraction of installed
numbers, both wireline and cell phone. But the switch itself is also
backed up by battery supplies "riding on" the primary power; also
true for cell sites themselves.

And for those cellsites that were in the path of an oncoming tornado?
Where is all that electrical energy going to, Lennie...???

During any sudden event there WILL be a flurry of telephone calls
made and that MAY overtax the limited number-handling capability
of the switch. ...(SNIP)

There HAVE been and HAS overtaxed...

The onset of the 11 Sep 01 Attack by four hijacked airliners was not
only sudden but unprecedented, without any possible warning. The
subsequent crash of two airliners into the WTC towers did destroy a
portion of the lower Manhattan telephone system wiring but did NOT
destroy or disable the entire Manhattan telephone infrastructure.

Just a signifcant part of the commercial wireless network and an entire
OES center...Ya know...the SMALL stuff...

The onset of a fire storm, typically in dry open country, is not sudden
and may take literal days from ignition start to reaching fire storm
conditions. There is plenty of warning time using conventional
communications means to begin fighting that.

Then why, if it's so "gradual" in evolution, does the CDF still employ
Amateurs to help them out..?!?!

(For everyone else, "CDF" is the California Department of Forestry...since
Lennie likes to brag on how avante garde Kalifonication is, I always like to
feed it back to him when the opportunity arises!)

Hurricanes are known and predicted from NOAA tracking, allow days
for all in the path to prepare. Again, communications may be done
by conventional means. Tornados are more sudden but allow hours
of preparation from first sighting. Storm and flood conditions allow
hours to days of preparation, again using conventional
communications to effect that.

Two major points:

NOAA, despite tons and tons of technology, STILL depends on hundreds of
Amateur Radio volunteers in it's SKYWARN program to provide real-time reports
to it's centers...To the point of spending a LOT of money to train Amateur
volunteers and to deploy facilities cap[able of communicating with them, both
on HF, V/UHF, and digital modes.

There is no reported evidence of amateur radio ever stopping an
earthquake, hurricane, tornado, flood, storm, or aircraft hijacking.

No, there's not.

However there ARE tons of articles on how Amateur Radio has been
part-and-parcel of the recovery phases of ALL of those various senarios...

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/19/2004 7:21 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article , JJ

writes:

Sure they do, but in the case of a 9/11 emergency they would be hard
pressed to use them. Cell phone are great during the planning, but when
the real emergency comes, they become useless for emergency comms.

Not always true.

You want to select the 11 September 2001 Attack on America as
a typical emergency but that was a very UNtypical emergency
that no one could foresee or plan for. In the "9/11" incident ALL
methods of communications were strained.

A point we can agree on.

There are NO verifiable stories about amateur radio doing anything
to aid anyone in the first few hours of the Attack in New York City
on 11 Sep 01. Conversely, even though the NYC Emergency
Center was almost destroyed in that Attack, police and fire
department personnel were in constant communications before and
immediately after the Attack in and around the World Trade Center.
Add to that the medical people, NYC officials, and various utilities
and other businesses who got into immediate action. All of that is
quite well documented in many and various media outside of
hobby groups.

Now THAT we CAN'T.

There have already been a half dozen recriminating "inquests" as to why
various communications failures occured with FDNY, NYPD, PAPF, EMS and othr
agencies.

THAT has been reported in "USA Today" and other nationwide media sources.

If they are licensed hams they might have. Why would they if they were
not licensed? Face it billyboy, for the real comms needed in an
emergency situation, the cell network is not considered by emergency
officials to be of use, they do consider ham radio.

"Officials" who have already been through emergencies of many kinds
consider and plan for ANY kind of communications in ANY kind of
emergency or disaster situation.

Yep.

And almost every plan from the Department of Defense on down to "Podunk
Hollow USA" have some provision for including (or at least considering)
implementing Amateur Radio as a recourse.

A case in point is the "other" "9/11" Attack on the Pentagon in DC....(Snip
to....)
After crash fire control and search and rescue was coordinated by on-
site military and civilian communications, not by amateur radio.

Lennie...why do you keep trying to make a point of this?

No one here has even remotely suggested that it was otherwise.

There are no viable
reports of amateur radio being used while that most definite
emergency situation was happening. (In reference to the 4th hijacking...SR)

No, there wasn't.

However Amateur Radio WAS employed in the post-incident recovery at the
site.

The "9/11" Attack is popular to espouse because of the enormous
emotional impact to all Americans. But, it was an ATTACK done
by other humans against all of us and definitely NOT some kind of
natural event emergency or disaster. The "kamikazi" nature of
this suicide attack was NOT anticipated by anyone and all were
in surprise and all had to work through the immediate aftermath
with whatever reseources were available.

Oh...so as long as the causal effect was "intentional", then we can
discount using Amateur Radio to receover from teh post incident effects,
Lennie...?!?!

Amateur radio is in the
tertiary level lumped in with CB, FRS, GMRS, and other private
radios...seldom organized to work with primary and secondary
levels and not depended upon as reliable for anything but health
and welfare (psychological reassurance) messaging for victims
after an emergency has occurred.

Oooooooooooooh! Lennie caught lying AGAIN!
It does no good to express outrage and perceived insult the radios
in an essentially-recreational activity isn't venerated or rewarded
for exaggerated tales of heroism and good deeds. That only shows
an emotional instability that refuses to consider the vast infra-
structure of communications that exists and is robust enough to
have survived many disasters and emergencies of the past.

If cell phones work in some future emergency, they WILL be used.
There are just too many of them, the cell infrastructure too large to
overlook them. Public Service radios are already organized and
backed up, networked, planned, trained to work in emergency
conditions. Those will bear the brunt of future emergency
communications as they have successfully in the past. In the USA
there exist many and varied wired and fiber communications means,
locally to nationally...plus a variety of frequencies, modes, and
methods already in-place with the military and national guards
units, able to use equipment designed and proven to work through
the harshest of all enviornments: Warfare. Everything that can
work is useable and has been used, emergency planners and
coordinators already well aware of what is available and reliable.

This isn't the 1920s when "radio" was not widespread nor
technologically advanced, suitable only for some broadcasting
and on-off keying mode communications. This is 80 years later,
over three generations of time, and "radios" are numerous in the
governmental and commercial infrastructure. It would be best to
stop the self-perceived outrage at your hobby being slighted to
educate yourself on the entire world of "radio," what is there and
how it is being used and planned-for in real emergencies.

LHA / WMD

rom: (William)
Date: 3/20/2004 6:46 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

JJ wrote in message
...
Len Over 21 wrote:


Since the
hijackers had control of civil airways radios on that fourth plane,
the only available means of communications for the passengers
was by cell phone. Those calls got through.

Of course those calls got through

And that is the point. An emergency call got through. They get
through every day using cellular phones.

dimwit,

Interesting how you smart guys always end up calling people names.
That usually happens about the time they run out of valid arguments

Well, you DO try a bit harder than the average "dimwit", Brain...

You DO try to skew the discussion into parameters that acutally FIT your
rant, even if the original discussion did not include them!

It's rather apparent and foolish since you usually get caught, but I give
you an "A" for effort!

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/19/2004 7:21 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

The unfortunate part is that his lack of emotional control in post
after post makes the hobby look bad to others. He can't see
that and refuses to recognize it, so we all get to see the name-
calling and damning epithets directed against others.

No "epithets' , damning or otherwise being directed here, Lennie.

Your personal marionette made a claim that the "unlicensed" services play
a "major role" (his adjectives, not mine) in "emergency comms".

I've asked him repeatedly to validate his claims with SOME form of proof.
He has failed to do so.

No proof = intentional mistruth.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/20/2004 6:49 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(William) writes:

Steve, you need to tone it down a bit. You're being rude and
obnoxious. I'll not respond to your insanity in-kind. Best of luck
to you.

He can't tone it down. No control there. Obsessive personal
necessity to go off on an emotional bender every time someone
hints at disagreeing with him and his "pride" about his personal
activities which he deems far superior to what others do.

The unfortunate part is that his lack of emotional control in post
after post makes the hobby look bad to others. He can't see
that and refuses to recognize it, so we all get to see the name-
calling and damning epithets directed against others.

LHA / WMD

Being a Nurse, he probably has an excellent health plan that he could
use to get well. But admitting a problem is the first step.

What problem?

Not tolerating liars and fools?

Brain...YOU made an assertion of fact.

I have asked you (several times) to validate it. You have refused or
ignored it.

Your only "response" is to insinuate that I am "out of control" or
otherwise being "obnoxious".

I guess if I were making as equally assinine assertions in a public forum
and then being tasked to prove my "facts' and was unable, I'd be as equally
anxious to get the tiger off my tail too!

As far as I am concerned we can go ahead and drop it at this point. Your
obfuscation and attempts to dodge taking responsibility have only proven MY
contention that you are neither a knowledgeable person when it comes to Amateur
Radio, but that you are purposefully mistruthful.

You have made assertions that you cannot substantiate.

People who ARE in a position to know better know that your suggerstion of
"unlicensed" services playing some "major role" in "emergency comms" is
laughable at best.

Coming from Amateur Radio's OTHER court jester, I'd expect nothing less.
You and Lennie make a cute couple!

Steve, K4YZ



No problem.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/19/2004 6:14 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

But I wonder how he'd react to reading posts written by a like-named
person who tries to embellish his military "career" by associating himself
with
men who were KIA 3 years before you were in the Armed Forces...?!?!

It isn't called the "Armed Forces" for nothing. It is the nature of
what we do that associates us with KIA.

Only a callous idiot like you would try to rationalize what Lennie did as
"OK".

Claiming some fraternalism or professing to not break the chain of trust
and honor among Soliders is one thing...THAT is part of the Armed Forces.

Trying to embellish one's own personal "achivements" (or lack thereof)
based upon someone else's sacrifices is absolutely callous and cruel.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/19/2004 6:16 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

I know only one Steve Roberson and he's nuts.

Well..."Steve Roberson" MAY be nuts.

I am not.

YOU, on the other hand, are not truthful.

Steve, K4YZ

William wrote:


I've been used to that. But there's a new technology on board now. Get used to it.

Which isn't even a consideration in the military or civil authorities
plans for use in emergency comms during a major disaster...ham radio is.
Get used to it.