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#181
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Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:
But even MORE unfortuntate for YOU, Your Scumminess, is that YOU and YOU ALONE keep trying to use the Northridge Earthquake as some "evidence" that Amateur Radio is of no value in an emergency. That was ONE event in over 90 years of archived Amateur histroy. In which it has been documented many times over that ninety years of the valuable service Amateur Radio has provided. |
#182
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In article , JJ
writes: Len Over 21 wrote: TAFKARJ claims that "CB" originated in 1946...except that "11 meters" is not at 465 MHz. :-) There was a band at that frequency that citizens could apply for and use, thus a "citizens band" or "cb". Only two of the original four Citizens Band Radio Service classes survive. "Class C" CB evolved into Radio Control as shown in Part 95, Title 47 C.F.R. That Radio Control Radio Service also achieved its own band in the 72 MHz region, now favored by modelers instead of the 27 MHz fixed frequencies. "Class D," originally only 23 fixed frequencies on the old amateur 11 meter band, was expanded to 40 fixed frequencies several years ago. "CB radios" now are all considered to be THE CB. "Class A" and "Class B" CB, both on UHF, were deallocated and eliminated from U.S. regulations back before "CB" was expanded from 23 to 40 channels. "Class C" and "Class D" CB was created in 1958 by the FCC. That was over 45 years ago. I read about that first in 1958 in Popular Electronics magazine during lunchbreak at Ramo- Wooldridge Corporation in El Segundo, CA. Because if there were 100 million amateur licensees in America like there are 100 million cellular telephone subscriptions, our bands would be overloaded and useless. CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW??? And that is exactly why the cell network is useless for official emergency comms, every cell user wants to dial up twenty of their closest friends and tell them to turn on the tee-vee, overloading the network. The military and civil autorities do not consider the cell network a viable means of emergency comms, they do for ham radio. The military have their own radios. Those work very well and in environments far harsher than most "emergencies." Civil authorities have their own radios. Public Safety Radio Services include police, fire department, and medical services. Those are backed-up with emergency electrical power at base stations and are already networked. Real emergency organizations consider ALL forms of communications to be viable and will use anything that survives a real emergency. They plan for that, train for that, and work with the infrastructure of existing radios and landlines. The best source of what happened aboard the "fourth plane" on 11 Sep 01 came from passengers' and crews' cell phones. Hijackers had taken over regular aircraft communications devices in the cockpit. No ham radio was on board to do anything in that Very Real emergency. In the Pentagon Attack area during 11 Sep 01, military and civilian communications was handled by existing military and civilian communications means...a part of that was by cell phone although most of it was by VHF and UHF HTs. No ham radio was used in fire control or rescue work then. In the WTC Attack during 11 Sep 01, the NYC Emergency Communications Center (in an adjacent building) was largely destroyed by falling debris, also severing many trunk lines of the telephone system. NYC police and fire units did work- arounds using their own radios in a relay system to several centrals, calling in other agencies as well as special units to help. Some cell phone service did work, regardless of myth to the contrary and some wired phone service still worked, used by almost anyone on the WTC Attack scene. Amateur radio did not play any significant part (if any at all) during the few hours after the Attack on the WTC. When the cellsite is down, unaccessable, or overloaded, HOW do you communicate with your cellphone? When your ham radio is broke, how do you communicate with it? He THROWS it? :-) Which one, I have several, what are the odds they are all down at the same time? How many cell phones do you have? Since neither you nor your equipment is identified and we don't know the working status of your "several" radios, the above is just a brag claim of no intrinsic value. Your emergency plan scenario that you are acting out this weekend is that cell phones won't be working. Am I wrong? As far as using the cell network for official emergency comms, you can consider it not working. In times of a major emergency it becomes useless for anything but attempting to make a call. That is a popular myth but it remains only a myth. The cellular telephone network is part of the telephone infrastructure and is intimately connected with the local exchange's switching unit. That switching unit is designed to handle only a fraction of installed numbers, both wireline and cell phone. But the switch itself is also backed up by battery supplies "riding on" the primary power; also true for cell sites themselves. During any sudden event there WILL be a flurry of telephone calls made and that MAY overtax the limited number-handling capability of the switch. The probability of overload is in inverse relationship to the suddenness of the event. The overload, if any, does NOT last indefinitely. Such an overload is also dependent on the telephone exchange and subscriber services arrangement. Note: Not all subscribers are routed through the switch but may be direct to some PBX-equivalent. The onset of an earthquake is sudden, as yet not predictable. That will guarantee an overload of telephone switches as worried, distraught subscribers seek information and reassurance. The onset of the 11 Sep 01 Attack by four hijacked airliners was not only sudden but unprecedented, without any possible warning. The subsequent crash of two airliners into the WTC towers did destroy a portion of the lower Manhattan telephone system wiring but did NOT destroy or disable the entire Manhattan telephone infrastructure. The onset of a fire storm, typically in dry open country, is not sudden and may take literal days from ignition start to reaching fire storm conditions. There is plenty of warning time using conventional communications means to begin fighting that. Hurricanes are known and predicted from NOAA tracking, allow days for all in the path to prepare. Again, communications may be done by conventional means. Tornados are more sudden but allow hours of preparation from first sighting. Storm and flood conditions allow hours to days of preparation, again using conventional communications to effect that. Whenever conventional communications means survive any emergency, those will be used. If from nothing else, their availability such as with cellular telephones (at least 100 Million in the USA). Regardless of the popular myth, the telephone system in the USA has remained viable and grown in two decades that include several earthquakes, several hurricanes, several tornados, several fire storms, several floodings and storms...and the 11 Sep 01 Attack On America from three hijacked airliners deliberately crashed into buildings. It remains working. There is no reported evidence of amateur radio ever stopping an earthquake, hurricane, tornado, flood, storm, or aircraft hijacking. LHA / WMD |
#183
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In article , JJ
writes: William wrote: JJ wrote in message ... William wrote: You just cannot bring yourself to say that cellular telephones have any use whatsoever in an emergency. For handling official emergency traffic they are not of any use, that is why the military and civil officials dismiss them completely from their emergency planning. They do include ham radio. Lemme see. Emergency planners have cell phones tagged to their belts, right? Sure they do, but in the case of a 9/11 emergency they would be hard pressed to use them. Cell phone are great during the planning, but when the real emergency comes, they become useless for emergency comms. Not always true. You want to select the 11 September 2001 Attack on America as a typical emergency but that was a very UNtypical emergency that no one could foresee or plan for. In the "9/11" incident ALL methods of communications were strained. There are NO verifiable stories about amateur radio doing anything to aid anyone in the first few hours of the Attack in New York City on 11 Sep 01. Conversely, even though the NYC Emergency Center was almost destroyed in that Attack, police and fire department personnel were in constant communications before and immediately after the Attack in and around the World Trade Center. Add to that the medical people, NYC officials, and various utilities and other businesses who got into immediate action. All of that is quite well documented in many and various media outside of hobby groups. Emergency planners don't have ham radio tagged to their belts, right? If they are licensed hams they might have. Why would they if they were not licensed? Face it billyboy, for the real comms needed in an emergency situation, the cell network is not considered by emergency officials to be of use, they do consider ham radio. "Officials" who have already been through emergencies of many kinds consider and plan for ANY kind of communications in ANY kind of emergency or disaster situation. A case in point is the "other" "9/11" Attack on the Pentagon in DC. A year prior to the "9/11" Attack, the internal HVAC and utilities communications and control system of that very large (horizontally) structure were modified to allow selected sections to be isolated, cut off from the main systems in order to minimize fire damage. That system got a very real test on 11 Sep 01 and proved to be good. Pentagon damage was confined to the immediate quintant (?, one-fifth) with no spread beyond the aircraft crash point. After- crash fire control and search and rescue was coordinated by on- site military and civilian communications, not by amateur radio. In the largely forgotten "fourth aircraft" incident on 11 Sep 04, we have become familiar with the phrase "Let's [rock and] Roll!" that was transmitted over a cellular telephone from the hijacked airliner passenger cabin by a passenger. A stewardess' cell phone call from that fourth hijacked plane has been recorded by the media and played several times in broadcasts. Since the hijackers had control of civil airways radios on that fourth plane, the only available means of communications for the passengers was by cell phone. Those calls got through. There are no viable reports of amateur radio being used while that most definite emergency situation was happening. The "9/11" Attack is popular to espouse because of the enormous emotional impact to all Americans. But, it was an ATTACK done by other humans against all of us and definitely NOT some kind of natural event emergency or disaster. The "kamikazi" nature of this suicide attack was NOT anticipated by anyone and all were in surprise and all had to work through the immediate aftermath with whatever reseources were available. "Radio" (as in two-way transceivers) doesn't exist in just cell phones and ham rigs. There are - literally - hundreds of thousands of radios existing now and in all the government and commercial infra- structures. All of those hundreds of thousands of infrastructure radios are available NOW and already networked. Those are and will continue to be primary radio communications means in the real emergencies that have been and are expected to happen in the future. The secondary means are a mixture of infrastructure fall- back planning and private-use radios, principally utility, business, and other commercial radio services. Amateur radio is in the tertiary level lumped in with CB, FRS, GMRS, and other private radios...seldom organized to work with primary and secondary levels and not depended upon as reliable for anything but health and welfare (psychological reassurance) messaging for victims after an emergency has occurred. It does no good to express outrage and perceived insult the radios in an essentially-recreational activity isn't venerated or rewarded for exaggerated tales of heroism and good deeds. That only shows an emotional instability that refuses to consider the vast infra- structure of communications that exists and is robust enough to have survived many disasters and emergencies of the past. If cell phones work in some future emergency, they WILL be used. There are just too many of them, the cell infrastructure too large to overlook them. Public Service radios are already organized and backed up, networked, planned, trained to work in emergency conditions. Those will bear the brunt of future emergency communications as they have successfully in the past. In the USA there exist many and varied wired and fiber communications means, locally to nationally...plus a variety of frequencies, modes, and methods already in-place with the military and national guards units, able to use equipment designed and proven to work through the harshest of all enviornments: Warfare. Everything that can work is useable and has been used, emergency planners and coordinators already well aware of what is available and reliable. This isn't the 1920s when "radio" was not widespread nor technologically advanced, suitable only for some broadcasting and on-off keying mode communications. This is 80 years later, over three generations of time, and "radios" are numerous in the governmental and commercial infrastructure. It would be best to stop the self-perceived outrage at your hobby being slighted to educate yourself on the entire world of "radio," what is there and how it is being used and planned-for in real emergencies. LHA / WMD |
#185
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William wrote:
JJ wrote in message ... William wrote: JJ wrote in message ... William wrote: I would hazard a quess that the average American Citizen DOES know someone with a cell phone. Cell phones are almost ubiquitous, so much so that they are annoyances. 100 million subscriptions, 265 million people. You do the math. And the network becomes useless in an emergency, Stop right there. In every emergency ever, the cell network always becomes useless? As far as millitary and civil authorities are concerned for official emergency comms... a big *yes*. Are you the SECDEF? Are you the Director of FEMA? You paint with a broad brush and without authority. That makes it grafitti. I suggest you call NORAD/NORTHCOM, FEMA, The Red Cross, Civil Defense,and other emergency agencies and ask them how much weight they place on the cell phone system for emergency comms in times of a major disaster. |
#186
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William wrote:
JJ wrote in message ... Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote: But NOT for the types of communications that were supported by Amateur Radio...that's the PURPOSE of Amateur Radio...to relieve those other services of having to worry about that. Lets see if in the next emergency when another service is needed to relieve other services, which the emergency officials call on first for relief, lenny and witless william with their gameboy cell phones, or ham radio. Try as they may to discredit ham radio's usefullness in such times, the military and civil authorities consider ham radio to be viable means of communications in emergencies, but not the cell network. JayJay, I happen to be an amateur. I have equipment. I have been trained. I am available should the need arise. I do not discredit amateur radio's usefulness in such times. Yet you greatly discredit the impact that cellular telephones have made on emergency communications. Because in a major disaster calling for emergency comms, the cell network will be, far all practical purposes, useless. The emergency officials will not rely on the cell network for major comms during an emergency. In addition to the communication ability of military and civil services, they will rely on Amateur Radio if it is needed, and Amateur Radio will be there if needed. If a service is needed to suplement other comms, they will not call on or count on the cell phone network, they will call on Amateur Radio. |
#187
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Len Over 21 wrote:
Since the hijackers had control of civil airways radios on that fourth plane, the only available means of communications for the passengers was by cell phone. Those calls got through. Of course those calls got through dimwit, the plane was in the air away from any city that was experiencing a disaster, and any number of cell sites that were not overloaded with thousands attempting dial 911, their friends, ect., were available. Do you think if that call had been attempted in NYC it would have gotten through? Maybe, but more than likely not. |
#188
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JJ wrote in message ...
Len Over 21 wrote: Since the hijackers had control of civil airways radios on that fourth plane, the only available means of communications for the passengers was by cell phone. Those calls got through. Of course those calls got through And that is the point. An emergency call got through. They get through every day using cellular phones. dimwit, Interesting how you smart guys always end up calling people names. That usually happens about the time they run out of valid arguments. the plane was in the air away from any city that was experiencing a disaster, and any number of cell sites that were not overloaded with thousands attempting dial 911, their friends, ect., were available. Do you think if that call had been attempted in NYC it would have gotten through? Maybe, but more than likely not. Hmmm. So passengers on airlines should not use cell phones in emergencies. Every passenger flight should contain one Air Marshall and one Amateur Radio Operator to handle whatever emergency comes up. |
#189
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(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , (William) writes: Steve, you need to tone it down a bit. You're being rude and obnoxious. I'll not respond to your insanity in-kind. Best of luck to you. He can't tone it down. No control there. Obsessive personal necessity to go off on an emotional bender every time someone hints at disagreeing with him and his "pride" about his personal activities which he deems far superior to what others do. The unfortunate part is that his lack of emotional control in post after post makes the hobby look bad to others. He can't see that and refuses to recognize it, so we all get to see the name- calling and damning epithets directed against others. LHA / WMD Being a Nurse, he probably has an excellent health plan that he could use to get well. But admitting a problem is the first step. |
#190
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JJ wrote in message ...
William wrote: JJ wrote in message ... William wrote: JJ wrote in message ... William wrote: I would hazard a quess that the average American Citizen DOES know someone with a cell phone. Cell phones are almost ubiquitous, so much so that they are annoyances. 100 million subscriptions, 265 million people. You do the math. And the network becomes useless in an emergency, Stop right there. In every emergency ever, the cell network always becomes useless? As far as millitary and civil authorities are concerned for official emergency comms... a big *yes*. Are you the SECDEF? Are you the Director of FEMA? You paint with a broad brush and without authority. That makes it grafitti. I suggest you call NORAD/NORTHCOM, FEMA, The Red Cross, Civil Defense,and other emergency agencies and ask them how much weight they place on the cell phone system for emergency comms in times of a major disaster. I suggest you tell Average Citizen that he or she needs to have an amateur radio operator strapped to their hip for emergency purposes. Until they buy into your argument in large numbers, cellular telephones will continue to eclipse amateur radio for Average Citizens emergency communications. |
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