William wrote:

JJ wrote in message ...

William wrote:


I would hazard a quess that the average American Citizen DOES know
someone with a cell phone. Cell phones are almost ubiquitous, so much
so that they are annoyances. 100 million subscriptions, 265 million
people. You do the math.

And the network becomes useless in an emergency,


Stop right there.

In every emergency ever, the cell network always becomes useless?

As far as millitary and civil authorities are concerned for official
emergency comms... a big *yes*.

William wrote:

JJ wrote in message ...

William wrote:


You just cannot bring yourself to say that cellular telephones have
any use whatsoever in an emergency.

For handling official emergency traffic they are not of any use, that is
why the military and civil officials dismiss them completely from their
emergency planning. They do include ham radio.


Lemme see.

Emergency planners have cell phones tagged to their belts, right?

Sure they do, but in the case of a 9/11 emergency they would be hard
pressed to use them. Cell phone are great during the planning, but when
the real emergency comes, they become useless for emergency comms.


Emergency planners don't have ham radio tagged to their belts, right?

If they are licensed hams they might have. Why would they if they were
not licensed? Face it billyboy, for the real comms needed in an
emergency situation, the cell network is not considered by emergency
officials to be of use, they do consider ham radio.

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...
Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/18/2004 7:58 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
.com...
(William) wrote in message
om...
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
om...
(William) wrote in message
. com...
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
. com...
(William) wrote in message
. com...

You sure seemed to be doing a good job of it above. Thanks for coming
clean and acknowledging that cellular telephones have played a huge
role in emergency response communications.

Here you go with putting words in other peoples post,
MiniLennie...

I DID NOT say they play a "huge role". They are important, but
thier loss of service is a contingency planned for. So is the loss of
the commercial and public service systems. Those plans include using
Amateur Radio as a stop-gap.

Can you/do you refute this?

Yes, I can.

Quoting Lean:

"Alun, according to the Census Bureau's data as of 2003, there are 100
million cellular telephone subscriptions in the USA. That's about one
for every three citizens. Rather large "spread," I'd say.

This is no proof, Brain.

SHOW ME where those UNLICENSED SERVICES are USED in playing a MAJOR ROLE
(your choice of adjectives) in "emergency comms".


Brain, WHY do you insist on making assertions that ANYONE who
might care to research can find out are so blatantly false?

Do you ENJOY being proven a liar?

Why do you leave out other forms of cummunications???

I haven't.

We have been discussing AMATEUR RADIO'S role in emergency communications,
since this IS a forum for Amateur Radio.

Nonetheless those other servies get thier mention as the conversation
leans that way.

YOU have NOT answered TWO questions:

What "major role" have unlicensed services played in "emergency comms",

And..."Do you ENJOY being proven a liar".

You're simply wrong on that one. Amateur radio does not offer the
flexibility and utility that cellular telephones provide.

Oh...?!?! How?

Because if there were 100 million amateur licensees in America like
there are 100 million cellular telephone subscriptions, our bands
would be overloaded and useless.

CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW???

There is no way that 100 million cellphones could occupy the
infrastructure at the same time.

As for those 100 million people being on the air at the same time, WHO
NEEDS THEM?

It has already been proven that a small number of well trained people can
do a job far more efficeintly and effectively than 10 times thier number of
UNtrained people.

(this guy IS an idiot...Hope I get to see him at Dayton and tell
him to his face...)

I'd rather not meet you in person. You scare me.

I should. I expose the true nature of your character, and that's just
from unravelling your poorly prepared rants in this forum. I can imagine what
a fool I could make of you in a TRUE public forum.

So stay away from me.

I imagine that will be no problem...If your in-person stench approximates
your on-line nature, I will have plenty of time to change my direction of
travel.

Of course you could find something else to do this May. Judging from the
character of your posts here, Witless Willy, I imagine you have little
tolerence for licensed Amateur Radio operators anyway.

When the cellsite is down, unaccessable, or overloaded, HOW do you
communicate with your cellphone?

When your ham radio is broke, how do you communicate with it?

I don't. But I CAN open the box, fix the problem, and continue with what
I was doing.

And if that's impractical, I switch radios.

Challenges, challenges, challenges! That's a part of your problem,
Don Quixoterobeson. Always making challenges.

So far, Putz, you've not been up to ANY challenge. (no cajones)

Is that a threat?

Only "threat(ening)" to your ego, Brain.

I said you don't have the cajones to honestly answer quetions put to you.

Your "response" is to NOT answer the question, and then insinuate my
assertion of your lack of 'nads" is somehow a threat.

When the repeater is down, I can switch to simplex...When the
propagation is bad, I can switch bands...If FM is inappropriate, I can
switch to a data mode or SSB.

So far, Brain, you've not proved anything except your
ignorance...but you've done THAT well...

I said your radio is broke. Switch away for all the good it does you.

And I said if it breaks, I'll fix it. Amateurs (well...at least SOME
of us...) know how to do that.

Please DISPROVE ANYTHING I have said about Amateur Radio's
role.

Just did.

No, you've not. You have made a foolish assertion that is NOT
supported by a shred of evidence.

Yes, I did. You only have one scenario in your head. That scenario
is that cell phones won't work in an emergency.

That's the scenario YOU have. I've cired many others. You simply keep
trying to come back to only one that you think you can legitimately argue.

First of all I have not "ommited" anything. I have discussed
other services on many occassions...It happens THIS is a forum on
Amateur Radio.

Your emergency plan scenario that you are acting out this weekend is
that cell phones won't be working.

Among others...That is only one part of a very large plan.

And can YOU tell ME that if a major earthquake occured that those services
would, without question, remain in service?

Am I wrong?

Usually, yes.

Will you deny emergency comms to us if we needed them?

Of course.

Those of us who are actually involved in these types of activities
prepare in advance for these issues. It's called "TRAINING".

You trained for the Twin Towers attack?

We've trained for a loss of commercial telephone service, regardless of
how it occurs, Brain.

Did your exercise scenario shut down the cell system?

Yep.

Or did it actually work as actual 9/11 survivors said it worked?

"...actual 9/11 survivors" used their phones prior to the towers falling.

Most American Citizens are not responding agencies, don't have MOUs,
aren't amateur radio operators.

What do they use?

Cell Phones.

Please tell me, Brain, what SERVICE to all those cellphone carrying
citizens perform?

They are only calling for thier own needs.

Again, you try to argue the needs of the one as opposed to the meads of the
many.

Unless your emergencies are always predictable, in which case they are
not emergencies.

Sure they are.

Can anyone say exactly WHEN an emergency will occur? Of course
not! But I know, with unfaltering certainty, that tornadoes will
come, rivers will flood, buildings will burn, aircraft will crash,
power grids will fail, etc etc etc.

Are YOU saying that these events, which we KNOW will occur at
some time, are NOT emergencies simply becasue we know they occur?

You got me there. In all of the situations above, how will the
average Joe communicate?

Communicate what? "HELP...THERE'S A TORNADOI!"

You try to meld "emergency communications" with "distress calls".

You need to learn the difference, Brain.

Put in the spot of being asked to validate his assertions, he
wants to play silly sandlot games. OK... That pretty well validates
my assessment of him....Brian Burke is a coward.

Sounds like more challenges. You really want to get into it, don't
you?

You're already "in it", Brain.

You deceive, you make allegations you can't/won't substantiate. You
humiliate yourself by claiming another person, known to be a pathological liar,
as your "mentor".

There's no "challenge" there. You said these things. I didn't have to
make this up.

Cellphones were nearly USELESS in the initial stages of the
attacks in NYC due to overload and loss of cell sites. This is
documented fact.

Nope. Lots of people used their cell phones. One even used his phone
to call home and leave a goodbye message to his wife on their
answereing machine.

He didn't use amateur radio or CW.

No, he didn't. I read those stories too. They were made before the
Towers fell and the system was still, essentially, in tact.

Why are you being an idiot? Was this a birth defect, or have you
been studying...???

You just cannot bring yourself to say that cellular telephones have
any use whatsoever in an emergency.

YOU are the person making that allegation, Lennie...I mean Brain...

I have already stated otherwise.

I can remember the names of every commanding officer or OIC I
served under in the USMC going back to my Series Commander in boot
camp in 1974. You can't pony-up a name of a guy you served in a war
zone with...?!?!

Forward location. Not a war zone though the VFW thinks so.

Ahhhhhh....an excuse. I see. OK.

Yes, there are. And they still depend on Amateur Radio
organizations to fill essential billets in EOC's.

Thus, military installations can work with their IMD to set up a BST
under MARS. Much better outcome than relying on people who CHOP
themselves to the ARC, Salvation Army, County EOC, CAP, Homeless
Shelter, Friends of the Library, and Bicycle Rodeos.

And the members of MARS who flesh out those BST's are.....

(1) CB users

(2) FRS/MURS owners

(3) Licensed Amateur Radio operators

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

When was the last time YOU were in an EOC as a functionary,
Brain? When was the last time you participated in ANY disaster
mitigation exercise in ANY role?

I do enough on the job re mitigation.

You mean yo stay out of everyone else's way...?!?!

GOOD FOR YOU!

You and Dee simply cannot accept that an unlicensed service has
played
a major role in emergency comms.

What "unlicensed service"...?!?! CB? FRS? MURS? Part 15
compliant devices?

Sure. Why not?

OK, Brain...YOUR "scenario" was "that an unlicensed service has
played a major role in emergency comms".

Now...provide me with some example of one of those "unlicensed
services" playing a "major role".

To ME, at least, "major role" means that SOME sort of crucial
event was dependent upon one of those "services" being able to render
a meaningful, positive outcome.

So...YOU put it out there, let's see you come up with some
pertinent examples.

And remember, Brain, "major" was YOUR adjective...NOT mine.

I'm just so happy that you finally acknowledged that mere cell phones
play a major role in disaster communications. Or did you?

I said they played a role...just like Amateur Radio does.

Now...You made some silly assertions that I've asked you to
substantiate.

You got the cajones to come up with valid answers, or are we to
be treated to more of your lame sandlot excuses...???

You completely quoted all of that, Brain, but didn't answer a single bit
of it...even facetiously...

Ya did a GOOD JOB of validating my assumption of your lack of valid
argument and lack of cajones to do so...

Remember, Brain...we're using YOUR adjectives of "MAJOR ROLE" in disaster
and/or emergency communications.

So far, the only "role" you've been able to cite is Joe Average calling
9-1-1 to report an emergency. That is NOT "emergency comms".

I WANT TO KNOW what ROLE those unlicensed services play in disaster
mitigation EMERGENCY COMMUNICATIONS....

Thanks.

Steve, K4YZ


Steve, you need to tone it down a bit. You're being rude and
obnoxious. I'll not respond to your insanity in-kind. Best of luck
to you.

Billy

In article , JJ
writes:

claims that "CB" originated in 1946...except that
"11 meters" is not at 465 MHz. :-)

There was a band at that frequency that citizens could apply for and
use, thus a "citizens band" or "cb".

It was called the "citizens radio service" even back then, and the 465 MHz
allocations were referred to as Class A and Class B citizens' band - or cb.
(One class was voice and the other was radio control). When the 27 MHz
allocations were authorized, they were known as Class C and Class D cb.

CB was already more than a decade old in 1958.

73 de Jim, N2EY

JJ wrote in message ...
William wrote:

JJ wrote in message ...

William wrote:


You just cannot bring yourself to say that cellular telephones have
any use whatsoever in an emergency.

For handling official emergency traffic they are not of any use, that is
why the military and civil officials dismiss them completely from their
emergency planning. They do include ham radio.


Lemme see.

Emergency planners have cell phones tagged to their belts, right?

Sure they do,

Hmmm? wonder why?

but in the case of a 9/11 emergency they would be hard
pressed to use them. Cell phone are great during the planning, but when
the real emergency comes, they become useless for emergency comms.

They do, huh? So rather than flipping open their cell phone and
stating "dial EOC," they race back to the EOC and invoke a 100% recall
of emergency responders without even trying their cell.

Emergency planners don't have ham radio tagged to their belts, right?

If they are licensed hams they might have.

And the chances of that are?

They probably have a greater chance of gettin thru on their cell
phones than they do being licensed.

Why would they if they were
not licensed?

They would have an amateur hooked to their belt keying the PTT button.

Face it billyboy, for the real comms needed in an
emergency situation, the cell network is not considered by emergency
officials to be of use, they do consider ham radio.

Yet they wouldn't be w/o that cell on their hip. Wonder why?

JJ wrote in message ...
William wrote:

JJ wrote in message ...

William wrote:


I would hazard a quess that the average American Citizen DOES know
someone with a cell phone. Cell phones are almost ubiquitous, so much
so that they are annoyances. 100 million subscriptions, 265 million
people. You do the math.

And the network becomes useless in an emergency,


Stop right there.

In every emergency ever, the cell network always becomes useless?

As far as millitary and civil authorities are concerned for official
emergency comms... a big *yes*.

Are you the SECDEF? Are you the Director of FEMA?

You paint with a broad brush and without authority.

That makes it grafitti.

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...

But I wonder how he'd react to reading posts written by a like-named
person who tries to embellish his military "career" by associating himself with
men who were KIA 3 years before you were in the Armed Forces...?!?!

It isn't called the "Armed Forces" for nothing. It is the nature of
what we do that associates us with KIA.

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...
Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: Leo
Date: 3/18/2004 5:18 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

On 18 Mar 2004 20:29:09 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:

Maybe the Blue Angels will perform a fly-over and aerobatic
demonstration at the conclusion? If so, find out who is one
of the Solo pilots. That name may come as a surprise. :-)

That would be Maj. Len Anderson, USMC.

A relative, perhaps?

I know two "Len Anderson"'s here in SE Tennessee...

Thankfully, both of them are responsible, thoughtful men of reputable
character.

Unlike the "Len Anderson" who posts to RRAP.

Steve, K4YZ

I know only one Steve Roberson and he's nuts.

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message gy.com...
"William" wrote in message
om...
Put 100 million amateurs on our bands and you think you can get a
message thru?


You are obviously unaware that in an emergency, the government can and does
declare designated frequencies off limits to general usage for the duration
of that emergency.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

That is correct. They would likely put amateurs off the air.

JJ wrote in message ...
Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:


But NOT for the types of communications that were supported by Amateur
Radio...that's the PURPOSE of Amateur Radio...to relieve those other services
of having to worry about that.

Lets see if in the next emergency when another service is needed to
relieve other services, which the emergency officials call on first for
relief, lenny and witless william with their gameboy cell phones, or ham
radio.
Try as they may to discredit ham radio's usefullness in such times, the
military and civil authorities consider ham radio to be viable means of
communications in emergencies, but not the cell network.

JayJay, I happen to be an amateur. I have equipment. I have been
trained.

I am available should the need arise.

I do not discredit amateur radio's usefulness in such times.

Yet you greatly discredit the impact that cellular telephones have
made on emergency communications.