(William) wrote in message . com...

Thomas Jefferson said the only legitimate purpose of a federal
government was the protection of it's citizens.

That purpose has now changed to job creation and the department of
education.

Thomas Jefferson, as enlightened and as forward looking as he may
have been, could have hardly envisioned the United States as it exists
today.

That does not negate the very necessary contribution that ham
radio made to a major emergency in a current situation.

That does not negate the very necessary contribution that cellular
telephones made to a major emergency in a current situation.

You keep trying to avoid the very real truth that Amateur Radio
STILL fills a need, even in these early days of the 21st century.

These facts are not from some ARRL source...these assertions come
from a plethora of govenmental, public and private agencies who have
benefitted from the contributions of Amateur Radio and have expressed
the intent to continue to include Amateur Radio in thier plans and
programs.

Phones and comms did go out in some areas here. Ham radio turned out to be
a valuable asset.

Power went out north of here. Other than power, there were no reports
of comms going out. Do you have a newspaper clipping detailing the
comm outages?

How about SITREP's from OES/EMA's detailing Amateur Radio
involvement?

Just becasue the papers don't name each and every resource
employed in an emergency doesn't mean they weren't involved. That's a
LennieRant tactic that any 3rd grader can see through.

Amateur Radio's contributions in emergencies does NOT exist
solely "when the comms are down".

Steve, K4YZ

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message . com...
(William) wrote in message . com...

Thomas Jefferson said the only legitimate purpose of a federal
government was the protection of it's citizens.

That purpose has now changed to job creation and the department of
education.

Thomas Jefferson, as enlightened and as forward looking as he may
have been, could have hardly envisioned the United States as it exists
today.

True. He would vomit blood at the welfare state that we have become.

That does not negate the very necessary contribution that ham
radio made to a major emergency in a current situation.

That does not negate the very necessary contribution that cellular
telephones made to a major emergency in a current situation.

You keep trying to avoid the very real truth that Amateur Radio
STILL fills a need, even in these early days of the 21st century.

I accept that. However, what I find amusing is that you and Dee
cannot accept that other forms of communications are fast eclipsing
amateur radio as a means of portable emergency communications.

These facts are not from some ARRL source...these assertions come
from a plethora of govenmental, public and private agencies who have
benefitted from the contributions of Amateur Radio and have expressed
the intent to continue to include Amateur Radio in thier plans and
programs.

And cell phones.

Phones and comms did go out in some areas here. Ham radio turned out to be
a valuable asset.

Power went out north of here. Other than power, there were no reports
of comms going out. Do you have a newspaper clipping detailing the
comm outages?

How about SITREP's from OES/EMA's detailing Amateur Radio
involvement?

You'll have to ask Dee.

Just becasue the papers don't name each and every resource
employed in an emergency doesn't mean they weren't involved. That's a
LennieRant tactic that any 3rd grader can see through.

And you're entirely up to the task. Congrats?

Did you say that cell phones played no role in providing
communications during the east coast power outage?

Did you say that cell sites don't have emergency backup generators?

C'mon, third grader, explain cell phones from of the picture. Tell us
that cell phones played NO role?

Amateur Radio's contributions in emergencies does NOT exist
solely "when the comms are down".

C'mon, third grader, show us where I stated that.

You and Dee simply cannot accept that an unlicensed service has played
a major role in emergency comms.

Were you two colleagues in third grade???

"William" wrote in message
You and Dee simply cannot accept that an unlicensed service has played
a major role in emergency comms.


I have never refused to accept the role of unlicensed services but I do not
let that blind me to the fact that amateur radio continues to play a
significant role. You are the one who cannot accept the fact that amateur
radio continues to play a major rule in emergency comms. My position is and
has always been that we need as many different forms of communication as
possible. No one can predict what services will or will not be knocked out
in the next emergency.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message gy.com...

"William" wrote in message
You and Dee simply cannot accept that an unlicensed service has played
a major role in emergency comms.


I have never refused to accept the role of unlicensed services but I do not
let that blind me to the fact that amateur radio continues to play a
significant role. You are the one who cannot accept the fact that amateur
radio continues to play a major rule in emergency comms. My position is and
has always been that we need as many different forms of communication as
possible. No one can predict what services will or will not be knocked out
in the next emergency.

Actually, Dee, his "unlicensed services" frame is awfully narrow.
Only Class D CB, MURS and FRS are "unlicensed".

Cellphones are NOT a "radio service" as defined by any FCC
part...they are a FEE-FOR-SERVICE provided by common carriers who are,
indeed, licensed services providing that fee-for-service. Every one
of those carriers has a plethora of callsigns issued for thier
services. You,a cellphone "subscriber" are using your telephone under
the auspices of thier license.

There are some REACT groups remaining who continue to monitor
Class D CB to some degree, but most REACT groups participating in
organized "public service" events use GMRS which still requires an
FCC-issued station license.

FRS is used mostly as a "wireless intercom" within disaster
shelters or extremely close areas, NOT as a "major role" in providing
disaster relief communications.

And I am sure that MURS radios may be used in some areas just as
FRS is, but for no more than FRS is.

Brain's assertion that "unlicensed" services play a "major role"
in "emergency comms" is absolutely assinine. He'll wallow around in
this one for a long time to come trying to justify his claims and will
come out of it looking just as foolish as he has for his other
"claims".

I am sure his "definition" of "major role" is far from what REAL
IC's consider a "major role". The "unlicensed services" play no more
than a "bit part"...a "cameo" at best.

So Brain...what "major role" do "unlicensed services" play...?!?!


73

Steve, K4YZ

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message gy.com...
"William" wrote in message
You and Dee simply cannot accept that an unlicensed service has played
a major role in emergency comms.


I have never refused to accept the role of unlicensed services but I do not
let that blind me to the fact that amateur radio continues to play a
significant role. You are the one who cannot accept the fact that amateur
radio continues to play a major rule in emergency comms. My position is and
has always been that we need as many different forms of communication as
possible. No one can predict what services will or will not be knocked out
in the next emergency.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

I too think that multiple forms of communications are the best bet
when the chips are down.

But cell phones sure are playing a much larger role than amateur radio
in emergency communications.

In article ,
(William) writes:

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
igy.com...
"William" wrote in message
You and Dee simply cannot accept that an unlicensed service has played
a major role in emergency comms.

I have never refused to accept the role of unlicensed services but I do not
let that blind me to the fact that amateur radio continues to play a
significant role. You are the one who cannot accept the fact that amateur
radio continues to play a major rule in emergency comms. My position is
and
has always been that we need as many different forms of communication as
possible. No one can predict what services will or will not be knocked out
in the next emergency.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

I too think that multiple forms of communications are the best bet
when the chips are down.

But cell phones sure are playing a much larger role than amateur radio
in emergency communications.

Brian, reminding folks that 100 MILLION cell phone subscriptions
have been taken out in the USA is not a valid fact to Believers.

Believers - those whose only access amateur radio sites and
especially that of the League - cannot rid themselves of the
urban myth that "cell phones always fail in an emergency."

Believers don't believe that any other "radios" except cell phones
and amateur radio exist. They don't believe that Public Safety
(police, fire, ambulance, etc.) services ever use their radios in
emergencies...the "emergency" in their minds seems to be of
such a large scale, so devastating that Public Safety agencies
are also "down." They don't believe that there are hundreds of
thousands of other radios in utility companies, taxicabs, private
corporations, private boats, private and commercial aviation can
even be used in any emergencies. Believers don't believe that
any government agency such as FEMA can use "radio" or
acknowledge that such is ever used in any emergency. Believers
don't even bother to consider the U.S. military or the various states'
National Guards, all of whom have portable or mobile radios,
radios designed for survivability and operability in the very harsh
environment of warfare.

Believers only believe in three kinds of radios - amateur, cell
phones, and some vague amorphous 'other kind' not specified
because they don't know anything about all those 'other kinds.'
Believers only believe that "cell phones always go down in
emergencies" but amateur radio is always so robust and damage
proof that all of them survive and continue to work.

Believers believe what they are told by the League who seems to
always say that "amateur radio was 'significant' in some emergency
(or event of occasion)."* The League doesn't define 'significant' since
that would take away the emotional loading that makes all League
members and other amateurs very proud, warm, and fuzzy...which
is what they want to do to increase interest in joining the League to
keep getting proud, warm, fuzzy feelings through membership.

* the homonymic phrase "played a major role" is sometimes used
for similar effect. Also, NASA astronauts who accept getting a ham
license as one of the many tasks of having to do required NASA
public relations are always labeled as "ham-astronauts" to get folks
proud, warm, and fuzzy thinking that they got to be astronauts
through their amateur radio license first.

All throughout Title 47, Code of Federal Regulations, the word
"service" is used as a regulatory term meaning a type and kind of
radio activity being regulated. Believers insist that "service" means
the same as "a service to the country." They don't acknowledge
that amateur radio is basically an avocational pursuit, a hobby, done
without pecuniary compensation to enjoy a particular radio activity.
No, Believers insist that "they perform a service to the nation" through
having a ham hobby, much in the same way the we both served our
country in the military.

Believers cannot be convinced of reality. Believers are a cult stuck
in an imaginary world reinforced by the many words of membership
organizations into mythical proportions. Anything said to disturb
their pride and warm, fuzzy feelings about their hobby are considered
heretical and damnations of their national service.

LHA / WMD

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(William) writes:

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
igy.com...
"William" wrote in message
You and Dee simply cannot accept that an unlicensed service has played
a major role in emergency comms.

I have never refused to accept the role of unlicensed services but I do not
let that blind me to the fact that amateur radio continues to play a
significant role. You are the one who cannot accept the fact that amateur
radio continues to play a major rule in emergency comms. My position is
and
has always been that we need as many different forms of communication as
possible. No one can predict what services will or will not be knocked out
in the next emergency.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

I too think that multiple forms of communications are the best bet
when the chips are down.

But cell phones sure are playing a much larger role than amateur radio
in emergency communications.

Brian, reminding folks that 100 MILLION cell phone subscriptions
have been taken out in the USA is not a valid fact to Believers.

100,000,000 cellular telephones cannot possibly compare with the
600,000 introverted (minus nursie) licensed amateurs. All are active,
have charged batteries, and backup generators, towers that cannot
fall, and electronics that cannot fail. Propofagion always occurs
when needed.

Believers - those whose only access amateur radio sites and
especially that of the League - cannot rid themselves of the
urban myth that "cell phones always fail in an emergency."

Believers don't believe that any other "radios" except cell phones
and amateur radio exist. They don't believe that Public Safety
(police, fire, ambulance, etc.) services ever use their radios in
emergencies...the "emergency" in their minds seems to be of
such a large scale, so devastating that Public Safety agencies
are also "down." They don't believe that there are hundreds of
thousands of other radios in utility companies, taxicabs, private
corporations, private boats, private and commercial aviation can
even be used in any emergencies. Believers don't believe that
any government agency such as FEMA can use "radio" or
acknowledge that such is ever used in any emergency. Believers
don't even bother to consider the U.S. military or the various states'
National Guards, all of whom have portable or mobile radios,
radios designed for survivability and operability in the very harsh
environment of warfare.

All true. You never worked radio while in the service. Heil never
worked radio while in the department of state. I never set up hf
intercept, nor did branywine ever tell me to reduce power.

It is an evil genius that just made us think we did.

Believers only believe in three kinds of radios - amateur, cell
phones, and some vague amorphous 'other kind' not specified
because they don't know anything about all those 'other kinds.'
Believers only believe that "cell phones always go down in
emergencies" but amateur radio is always so robust and damage
proof that all of them survive and continue to work.

Robust - beyond belief. Actually incredible.

Believers believe what they are told by the League who seems to
always say that "amateur radio was 'significant' in some emergency
(or event of occasion)."* The League doesn't define 'significant' since
that would take away the emotional loading that makes all League
members and other amateurs very proud, warm, and fuzzy...which
is what they want to do to increase interest in joining the League to
keep getting proud, warm, fuzzy feelings through membership.

* the homonymic phrase "played a major role" is sometimes used
for similar effect. Also, NASA astronauts who accept getting a ham
license as one of the many tasks of having to do required NASA
public relations are always labeled as "ham-astronauts" to get folks
proud, warm, and fuzzy thinking that they got to be astronauts
through their amateur radio license first.

All throughout Title 47, Code of Federal Regulations, the word
"service" is used as a regulatory term meaning a type and kind of
radio activity being regulated. Believers insist that "service" means
the same as "a service to the country." They don't acknowledge
that amateur radio is basically an avocational pursuit, a hobby, done
without pecuniary compensation to enjoy a particular radio activity.
No, Believers insist that "they perform a service to the nation" through
having a ham hobby, much in the same way the we both served our
country in the military.

Believers cannot be convinced of reality. Believers are a cult stuck
in an imaginary world reinforced by the many words of membership
organizations into mythical proportions. Anything said to disturb
their pride and warm, fuzzy feelings about their hobby are considered
heretical and damnations of their national service.

LHA / WMD

Yup.

In article m, "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

"William" wrote in message
You and Dee simply cannot accept that an unlicensed service has played
a major role in emergency comms.

I have never refused to accept the role of unlicensed services but I do not
let that blind me to the fact that amateur radio continues to play a
significant role.

Define "significant role."

That's an emotionally-loaded indefinite adjective designed to state an
opinion rather than any quanitifed value. It is very useful to membership
organizations in trying to get new members by appeals to their personal
need for recognition.

You are the one who cannot accept the fact that amateur
radio continues to play a major rule in emergency comms.

Such as...?

Define "major role" by general terms of reference, NOT from the
League's point of view.

Go to any newspaper or broadcasting archive and research the above
assertation before stating it again (incorrectly).

Amateur radio COULD play a major role and it MIGHT do so at
some future time. It just hasn't done so in the mass media.

My position is and
has always been that we need as many different forms of communication as
possible.

That is very true.

That has also been used as a rationale to continue morse code testing
for U.S. radio amateurs. According to the tRoll yodelings in here, morse
code has been the base rock, the cornerstone of his imaginary world
of "emergencies."

No one can predict what services will or will not be knocked out
in the next emergency.

That INCLUDES amateur radio.

Try to remember that last sentence in FULL reality.

LHA / WMD

(William) wrote in message . com...
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message . com...
(William) wrote in message . com...

Thomas Jefferson, as enlightened and as forward looking as he may
have been, could have hardly envisioned the United States as it exists
today.

True. He would vomit blood at the welfare state that we have become.

WHOA, BillyB! You at once espouse making Amateur Radio a
"once-size-fits-all" radio service, then make reference to a "welfare
state"...?!?!

Nice turn-about there! Get whiplash making that turn...?!?!

You keep trying to avoid the very real truth that Amateur Radio
STILL fills a need, even in these early days of the 21st century.

I accept that. However, what I find amusing is that you and Dee
cannot accept that other forms of communications are fast eclipsing
amateur radio as a means of portable emergency communications.

I have NEVER, in this forum or any other, refused to acknowledged
that other radio, wireline, or other common carrier services provide
any other means of "portable emergency communications".

I challenge you to prove otherwise.

What I HAVE stated in this and other forums is that Amateur Radio
CONTINUES to provide a necessary and almost irreplaceable asset. NO
OTHER RADIO SERVICE provides the flexibility and utility that Amateur
Radio does.

I challenge you to prove THAT otherwise, also.

These facts are not from some ARRL source...these assertions come
from a plethora of govenmental, public and private agencies who have
benefitted from the contributions of Amateur Radio and have expressed
the intent to continue to include Amateur Radio in thier plans and
programs.

And cell phones.

How well does a cellphone operate without a functioning cellsite,
Brain?

Please DISPROVE ANYTHING I have said about Amateur Radio's
role.

I have NEVER said anything even CLOSE to the idea that we're the
only game in town. Quite the contrary.

I HAVE said we provide a service to those who make the plans
and need the help.

Phones and comms did go out in some areas here. Ham radio turned out to be
a valuable asset.

Power went out north of here. Other than power, there were no reports
of comms going out. Do you have a newspaper clipping detailing the
comm outages?

How about SITREP's from OES/EMA's detailing Amateur Radio
involvement?

You'll have to ask Dee.

I am asking you.

Just becasue the papers don't name each and every resource
employed in an emergency doesn't mean they weren't involved. That's a
LennieRant tactic that any 3rd grader can see through.

And you're entirely up to the task. Congrats?

Did you say that cell phones played no role in providing
communications during the east coast power outage?

Absolutely not. You'll please quote the post wherein I made such
an assertion, Brain...?!?!

Did you say that cell sites don't have emergency backup generators?

Absolutely not. You'll please quote the post wherein I made such
an assertion, Brain...?!?!

C'mon, third grader, explain cell phones from of the picture. Tell us
that cell phones played NO role?

WHERE do you GET such assinine insinuations, Brain...?!?!

I have NEVER made ANY SUCH ASSERTION!

Amateur Radio's contributions in emergencies does NOT exist
solely "when the comms are down".

C'mon, third grader, show us where I stated that.

From above:

Power went out north of here. Other than power, there were no reports
of comms going out. Do you have a newspaper clipping detailing the
comm outages?

The INSINUATION you make here is VERY clear...in YOUR estimation,
the "comms" had to be "down" in order for Amateur Radio to have played
a role in "emergency comms".

"Emergency comms" are NOT only when the wires are down or the
cell site destroyed, Brain.

Perhaps if you were actively involved in the programs of some
disaster mitigation agency you might have a better insight as to what
Amateur Radio's OTHER roles are...?!?!

You and Dee simply cannot accept that an unlicensed service has played
a major role in emergency comms.

What "unlicensed service"...?!?! CB? FRS? MURS? Part 15
compliant devices?

Cellphones are a "fee-for-service" provided by the common
carriers under the auspices of THIER licenses.

Were you two colleagues in third grade???

Perhaps.. I knew a "Dee" in gradeschool, however I doubt we were
classmates.

On the otherhand we both seem to acknowledge that Amateur Radio
plays a PART in emergency communications, and that PART is
acknowledged and incorporated by almost every major disaster
mitigation organization in the United States, including FEMA, The Red
Cross, The Salvation Army, the Department of Defense, the Department
of State, most state's OES's, etc etc etc.

Unless, of course, you have evidence to the contrary...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

"Steve Robeson, K4CAP" wrote in message
m...
(William) wrote in message
. com...
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
. com...
(William) wrote in message
. com...

Were you two colleagues in third grade???

Perhaps.. I knew a "Dee" in gradeschool, however I doubt we were
classmates.


Not unless you went to 3rd grade in Andrew, Iowa or Elwood, Iowa.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE