Well said, Jim.

-- Stinger

"Jim Weir" wrote in message
...
I spent five years on the board of, and two years as the president of, a
721
home development board of directors. We had a few blowhards who, like
many in
here, told us to go to hell and parked cars on blocks and the like.

It wasn't rocket science. We voted a 30 day "take it away or go to
court." We
were impolitely told to go to hell. We didn't go to hell, we went to
court.
Not a big deal. Between the court costs and our lawyer's fees, the
blowhard had
a thousand dollar junk car project to remove. Three or four cases like
that in
the first couple of years and things got remarkably quiet, and we all got
along
like neighbors respecting the wishes of each other.

I took perverse satisfaction in stringing copper tape under the eaves of
the
house, strangely just long enough to make a quarter wave dipole for forty
meters. But it was painted with exactly the same shade that the eaves
were
painted, run with a quarter-gallon with adequate filtering, matched to the
n'th
degree, and worked the world on everything from forty on up. You could
walk
right up to it and not detect that there was an antenna of any sort.

Not to mention the 2-meter groundplane disguised as a chimney strap.
Painted
wrought-iron black and strangely so, 19 inches long. Coax? Run down a
mortar
seam and painted mortar grey. From five feet away, it was
indistinguishable
from the mortar.

I laugh at you blowhards telling us how you will do what you damn well
please
when and where you damn well please to do it. I note that none of you
have
tried it.

Clever works. Big mouths don't. And, if you don't like the rules, either
don't
move in or once you move in then try to change them. If a majority of
your
neighbors agree, it is changed. That's the way I learned that this
country
works.

Jim





"Midwest Kid"
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-
wrote in message ...
- WHO are you to tell me or someone else what you consider is "in check"
- or not? You deal with your property and the rest of us shall deal with
- ours.
-
If I move into an CC&R addition, I expect people to follow the
-rules. I would hope my neighbors would be smart enough to read
important
-real estate documents. I don't care if my home is $300K. If some ham
puts
-up a huge antenna and they make an exception, I will be documenting
-everything.
Jim Weir, VP Eng. RST Eng. WX6RST
A&P, CFI, and other good alphabet soup

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

I'm curious. How much do antennas reduce property values? Is there a
formula for such things?

Why does it have to be about damn property values? I think CC&Rs are more
of a way to help make sure that when I sell my home, my neighbors have not
gotten 'lazy' or 'crazy' over the last 5-30 years and done stupid crap. Be
it 'get into ham' and erect a stupid looking tower, put cars on blocks, or
paint their house 5 different colors. Everyone thinks that just because
property values have almost doubled (and in some cases went up 10 fold or
more) that the same thing will have in the next 20 years. Again, CC&Rs are
to protect your investment in your home. You don't gain anything in a home
sale if you don't sell your home. Would you offer to buy your neighbors
home if they had documented proof your antenna was scaring away buyers?




I laugh at you blowhards telling us how you will do what you damn well
please
when and where you damn well please to do it. I note that none of you
have
tried it.


No sir. Not me. I'd much rather discuss things politely rather than
start telling people what to do.



Clever works. Big mouths don't. And, if you don't like the rules,
either don't
move in or once you move in then try to change them. If a majority of
your
neighbors agree, it is changed. That's the way I learned that this
country
works.

Jim



Sometimes those meddlesome courts think the country works differently.
They said the CC&Rs which prohibit a seller from selling his property to
Blacks or Jews or Mexicans or any group in particular can't be enforced.
I suppose it had something or other to do with civil rights. The
Homeowner's Association can still regulate the color of the neighbor's
house, if not the color of the neighbors.

Frank Dresser

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
gy.com...


Contact the ARRL. They have data that shows that antennas have NO
impact on property values.

That is the whole damn point of CC&R. Your property value doesn't mean jack
if you cannot SELL your home. There are more people willing to look
elsewhere if my damn neighbor has some 20+ foot tower in his/her back yard.
Again, towers can't hurt 'values' when you can't even get a person to make
an offer.

"Midwest Kid" wrote in message
news:5Dayb.252403$mZ5.1876750@attbi_s54...

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

I'm curious. How much do antennas reduce property values? Is there a
formula for such things?

Why does it have to be about damn property values? I think CC&Rs are more
of a way to help make sure that when I sell my home, my neighbors have not
gotten 'lazy' or 'crazy' over the last 5-30 years and done stupid crap.
Be
it 'get into ham' and erect a stupid looking tower, put cars on blocks, or
paint their house 5 different colors. Everyone thinks that just because
property values have almost doubled (and in some cases went up 10 fold or
more) that the same thing will have in the next 20 years. Again, CC&Rs
are
to protect your investment in your home. You don't gain anything in a
home
sale if you don't sell your home. Would you offer to buy your neighbors
home if they had documented proof your antenna was scaring away buyers?


For starters, most hams that put up towers with elaborate antenna systems
would take them down when they moved (unless they became a silent key),
because these things are not petty investments, they cost a lot of money.
Some installations cost more than a new mid-sized car. The installation of
the tower itself is held to much higher standard by law than the house
itself is.

And again, unlike someone who puts up an old car on blocks, or paints their
home in rainbow glow paint, hams perform a public service. There currently
exists a rule within the FCC that disallows municipalities preventing
amateur operators from erecting antennas, and a similar rule for CC&R's is
in the works.

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
hlink.net...

It does amaze me, Pappy, how many are so willing to accept, and even
defend, additional restrictions on people's lives and property in this
supposedly free country of ours.

Please show us one case where someone was force (with a gun, knife, etc) to
buy a home in a CC&R neighborhood. No one is forced to buy a home in CC&R.
If you don't want CC&R, move.

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
hlink.net...

there was no place left to avoid those committees within just a few years.

My county just east of Indy has plenty of non CC&R neighborhoods. Oh wait,
how horrible it is to think people would want to live in a 25-30 year old
addition. Everyone wants to live in the 'perfect' place with no strings
attached. That is living in a fantasy world. Like I said, the Indy area is
nice. Plenty of 20-30 year old additions with good homes and no CC&R.
Though you might have to compromise on various issues (almost all these
additions have great school systems).

"Midwest Kid" wrote in message
news:HFayb.256443$9E1.1368062@attbi_s52...

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
gy.com...


Contact the ARRL. They have data that shows that antennas have NO
impact on property values.

That is the whole damn point of CC&R. Your property value doesn't mean
jack
if you cannot SELL your home. There are more people willing to look
elsewhere if my damn neighbor has some 20+ foot tower in his/her back
yard.
Again, towers can't hurt 'values' when you can't even get a person to make
an offer.

Same organization has data showing it doesn't affect the sale of homes
either.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Midwest Kid" wrote in message
news:rQayb.257513$275.934642@attbi_s53...

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
hlink.net...

there was no place left to avoid those committees within just a few
years.

My county just east of Indy has plenty of non CC&R neighborhoods. Oh
wait,
how horrible it is to think people would want to live in a 25-30 year old
addition. Everyone wants to live in the 'perfect' place with no strings
attached. That is living in a fantasy world. Like I said, the Indy area
is
nice. Plenty of 20-30 year old additions with good homes and no CC&R.
Though you might have to compromise on various issues (almost all these
additions have great school systems).



Actually many people prefer the 20 to 30 year old suburb as these finally
have trees of decent size. The problem is that in some places in this
country finding an area without CCRs that will mean an unreasonably long
communte to work.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Midwest Kid" wrote in message
news:5Dayb.252403$mZ5.1876750@attbi_s54...

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

I'm curious. How much do antennas reduce property values? Is there a
formula for such things?

Why does it have to be about damn property values? I think CC&Rs are more
of a way to help make sure that when I sell my home, my neighbors have not
gotten 'lazy' or 'crazy' over the last 5-30 years and done stupid crap.
Be
it 'get into ham' and erect a stupid looking tower, put cars on blocks, or
paint their house 5 different colors. Everyone thinks that just because
property values have almost doubled (and in some cases went up 10 fold or
more) that the same thing will have in the next 20 years. Again, CC&Rs
are
to protect your investment in your home. You don't gain anything in a
home
sale if you don't sell your home. Would you offer to buy your neighbors
home if they had documented proof your antenna was scaring away buyers?



I don't know where you live, but here we have zoning laws that control
much of the issues you are concerned about; and most towns have
enacted nusiance ordinances to handle less severe problems, such
as uncut grass, etc. BTW, I live in a AAA zoned area, and the ham
tower was not an issue. I kept in at the tree line, in the middle of
the property. Out of sight. Also, at one time I had three towers near
the house. The house next door was sold before it hit the market for
the full asking price.

Pete

"Jim Weir" wrote in message
...


The automobile could stay in the open carport for 30 days while being
repaired
(and there was no prohibition against working outside) or 30 days out
of
license. After that, the vehicle was in violation of the
nuisance/eyesore part
of the regs. There were also loopholes that allowed vehicles of
obvious
historical or antique interest more time while in the process of
restoration.
There was no contest of wills; the feller had the mindset of a few in
this
conversation who had absolutely no intention of abiding by what he
signed. And
we DID, by the way, require any real estate agent peddling property in
the
project to give the prospective owner a copy of the current
regulations PRIOR to
signing any binding contract.

We also had the local 8th grade students read the regulations and any
proposed
amendments. If half of the students couldn't tell us exactly what the
regulation said, it went back to the lawyer for rewrite at the
lawyer's expense.



OK, that's more reasonable than "take it away or go to court.".



Nope. And the primary purpose in my mind was NOT a reduction in
property
values. After having been a ham, elmer, and examiner for damn near 50
years, I
still find a huge tower with beam in a small-lot residential
neighborhood ugly.



I think they're cool. But I really like the Eiffel-like towers the
power company uses.



We discussed politely but firmly. We didn't tell anybody what to do.
We simply
explained what the man already knew and said what we intended to do
about it.
There was no telling anybody anything.




Jesus. Can we spell b i g o t ?????


Jim

Oh sure. And bigotry itself is still legal in the US, as it should be
in a nation which allows freedom of thought. But bigoted actions are
limited. As I understand, the courts will do nothing to enforce a race
related restrictive covanant, even if the buyer and the seller and the
local community support such restrictions. And that comes to my real
problem with Homeowner's Associations. It's not really about antennas
or old cars or knee high grass. That stuff is dealt with every day with
codes and municipal ordinances.

A Homeowner's Association is an extraconstitutional government. I have
no doubt that nearly all Homeowner's Associations are run by decent
people, including yours. But not always:

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b5efc12221e.htm#38

http://www.ccfj.net/HOAartflag.html

As far as I'm concerned, any attempt to restrict such fundamental rights
as a respectful religious display or display of the US Flag ought to get
laughed out of court, just as an attempt to enforce a racial restrictive
covanant.

Frank Dresser